Have bonus buys changed the way slots are designed

[spindoctor99]

I have been playing slots on and off for over a decade. The only slots I purchase bonuses on are vampy party and book of monsters and a few prag games at low denom value. Most of the buys pay little. Its rare they pay close to the purchase buy let alone are even profitable.

There is no way most slot players could afford to buy features at $2 as at $200 a buy its just too expensive. Just watch the bandit and generally three out of four buys per slot is a loss. In some cases a massive loss. You could torch 1k on five bonuses in the space of two minutes. Don't get me started on those stupid super buys.

Anyway years ago before the time of bonus buys when you did get a feature generally speaking the features were decent. In my experience it was not common to get a feature that paid $0. It happened sure, but it didn't seem to happen regularly.

With some of my favourite slots, the features were diabolical to land. However when you did get the feature you had an expectation that you would get a decent payout. Generally that was the case. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Now whenever I get a bonus on slots most features are average. Last night I rolled in a bonus 5 times on Big Bass 1000. The biggest payout was 25x. The smallest was 15x. I know that for the most part bonuses are going to be dogshit and pay the bare minimum.

So - with bonus buys now the norm for most providers are they designed more for the bonus buy and not for just spinning in a bonus. If that is the case, perhaps its best to stick with providers that don't have bonus buys as part of the algorithm.

 

[YouTubeSlots]

They ruined the way they were designed.

 

[megadam]

They absolutely have ruined the design of the slot. Take Pragmatic for example where they offer an enhanced "super" buy at an extreme cost that you can't naturally land a philosophy that has never existed till they introduced it. And the value of which is heavily, heavily weighted in the providers favor. And in some recent cases, offering to spend 1250x to get a max win of 5000x just seems insane to me. (Big Bass Reel Repeat)

I wouldn't mind so much if there was some transparency over these super buys, knowing the actual percentage odds and perceived value of the bonuses, but a lot of these providers are insanely shady and untrustworthy to begin with starting this practice off and continue to absolute erode the design of the slot as a result.

Also seen this trend with the extra bet going up on a lot of these slots, where previously would've been 20p turned into 25p easily it's now at a minimum 2-3x the bet and is the bonus frequency that much better? I'd argue it isn't.

 

[dunover]

BBs should make no difference to the game performance, all they are is a separate game within a game, with their own pool of values that pays around the same RTP as the slot played normally. So say 96.71% BB and 96.67% normal play, the slight difference due to the possible win values being less variable.

So say played normally the game pays 96% with 76+20% as the bonus pool, you now get 96% from the bonus pool and zero from base game.

What you will notice though is a higher average bonus buy result compared to the bonus values gleaned from the game played normally. It sounds like this effect is what you are observing.

 

[spindoctor99]

They absolutely have ruined the design of the slot. Take Pragmatic for example where they offer an enhanced "super" buy at an extreme cost that you can't naturally land a philosophy that has never existed till they introduced it. And the value of which is heavily, heavily weighted in the providers favor. And in some recent cases, offering to spend 1250x to get a max win of 5000x just seems insane to me. (Big Bass Reel Repeat)

I wouldn't mind so much if there was some transparency over these super buys, knowing the actual percentage odds and perceived value of the bonuses, but a lot of these providers are insanely shady and untrustworthy to begin with starting this practice off and continue to absolute erode the design of the slot as a result.

Also seen this trend with the extra bet going up on a lot of these slots, where previously would've been 20p turned into 25p easily it's now at a minimum 2-3x the bet and is the bonus frequency that much better? I'd argue it isn't.

personally I think pragmatic is one of the worse providers. Their features are incredibly predictable and I can normally tell mid feature how dogshit its going to be. Sugar Rush 1000 super buy is insanely expensive and I hate the fact the only way to get the super buy is to buy it at such an excessive price. They shouldn't be able to offer features where you can't spin it in. These types of slots are specifically design for bonus buys so in jurisdictions where bonus buys are banned they are a pointless slot.

It seems to me the only people that bonus buys are suited for are streamers.

 

[spindoctor99]

Take for example Vampy Slot. If you buy 5 scatters at $57.60 (0.20 stake) - to gamble to 256 multiplier it might take loads of attempts or you might jag it straight away. Regardless the max win is $1,000 so best case scenario its only 20x the buy. When you look at some of the bonus buy costs the max win is relatively low.
The one thing I respect about playngo as a slot provider is that they have ignored bonus buys or extra bets.

 

[09237653]

Yes, they are getting silly too, 500x-1000xs stake buy-ins and adding features which are unobtainable in normal play.

 

[Roll_TheDiceX]

Yeah I’ve noticed the same thing. Ever since bonus buys became common, the regular bonuses feel way weaker. It’s like the games are built around the buy feature now instead of rewarding natural spins. I also prefer the older style where landing a bonus actually felt exciting and could pay decent. These days it’s mostly small wins unless you get really lucky.

 

[avfcalex23]

I just thank my lucky stars bonus buys are banned in the UK and the max stake on slots is £5 per spin because I’m convinced I’d be bankrupt otherwise

 

[DreamRJ]

My opinion is that yes they have made playing the slots in base game super bad and when you do land bonuses now they usually pay 0X or 10X ish.

Take for example all those bass games from prag, the original used to pay at least 25X minimum when you had a bonus but now you are lucky to get 5X most of the time unless you get a lucky one. Those lucky bonuses are now few and far between and again I blame the bonus buys for that.

I am in the UK so I can not do bonus buys either so it does make it worse for us here. But yeah it is expensive to buy the bonuses and when I get the urge and spare money to want to do bonus buys I just do a few unregulated crypto casinos. (yes unsafe - but I have not had any issues being paid from them)

I still prefer to be protected and play at the regulated UKGC casinos and not pay the fees for crypto deposits at unregulated casinos though.

I rarely get the spare cash and urge though to do bonus buys anymore.

 

[kg2025]

I try and avoid games with bonus buys and ante bets . I still play them the odd time but as ive problems with tilt issues , I find myself buying them when Im stuck an age trying to hit FS and next thing im bust . Imo bonus buys and ante bets are just there to extract more money faster from the gambler .

 

[spindoctor99]

I find its so much easier to get tilted when you purchase bonus buys.. particularly when the results are absolute dogshit. I go and intend to just buy one. If it pays bugger all its so hard to just leave so I think well it can't get any worse and buy another one. Sure enough its somehow worse than before. So I buy another. Before you know it I've almost wiped a balance out. I'm not talking about massive buys either. I think pragmatic are the absolute worst and for most of their slots it seems to much you win heaps or fuck all. There isn't much in between.

 

[Jono777]

^^ Yeah that's the trouble with today's slots and not just BB's either.

No more "middle ground" as you mention, either super fast balance wipeout or a rare super big hit.

Its the volatility and variance, the models now are all greed and get rich quick based, 90% of the time for the provider/casinos.

I ain't dreamt it and my conspiracy days are pretty much behind me but I do remember (very) well when a £25 deposit would regularly last days than minutes, especially if you took a bonus.

 

[spindoctor99]

^^ Yeah that's the trouble with today's slots and not just BB's either.

No more "middle ground" as you mention, either super fast balance wipeout or a rare super big hit.

Its the volatility and variance, the models now are all greed and get rich quick based, 90% of the time for the provider/casinos.

I ain't dreamt it and my conspiracy days are pretty much behind me but I do remember (very) well when a £25 deposit would regularly last days than minutes, especially if you took a bonus.

Do casino's even offer deposit bonuses? I haven't had one of those in like 5 years.

 

[toslotornot]

Do casino's even offer deposit bonuses? I haven't had one of those in like 5 years.

all the curacows offer them until they don't if you finish wagering too many times.

 

[Reelsoffun]

I think BB were fine when they came out, most the first ones were like 50x but when they started going to 100x+ it really started getting out of hand but it is what it is, people basically don’t understand they are just expensive game rounds converted into and played out as bonus rounds.

When you play a slot game in the base game you expect many games to not to exceed your stake and give many zero pays, as that pays for the bigger wins. Bonus buys are exactly the same, many have to pay lower than the stake or even zero to pay for the profit ones and large ones, but people just don’t grasp it in the same way.

There is also no doubt that at the same time that bonus buys came into play that variance on all games was also heading to crazy heights, so it’s not all BB fault it’s more the fact that most modern games are just in the very high to extremely high volatility bracket now

 

[Reelsoffun]

I find its so much easier to get tilted when you purchase bonus buys.. particularly when the results are absolute dogshit. I go and intend to just buy one. If it pays bugger all its so hard to just leave so I think well it can't get any worse and buy another one. Sure enough its somehow worse than before. So I buy another. Before you know it I've almost wiped a balance out. I'm not talking about massive buys either. I think pragmatic are the absolute worst and for most of their slots it seems to much you win heaps or fuck all. There isn't much in between.

You might not like prags, and I do tend to agree, but there is no disputing that they are one of the better performing providers for BB for max wins as the comp is clearly showing, even tho you have to choose which games wisely.

As for the comp I have demo BB on many “prints” and they are awful with £500 buys paying less than £1 several times and yet to make even above the buy on many of them.

Same for hacksaw and 4 the player, both in the comp, both not even a sniff of anywhere near a max win LOL

 

[Jono777]

Do casino's even offer deposit bonuses? I haven't had one of those in like 5 years.

Was talking "back in the day" when they were plentiful.

Can come across the odd ones now and then but nowhere near as often as back then.

 

[Reelsoffun]

I have been playing slots on and off for over a decade. The only slots I purchase bonuses on are vampy party and book of monsters and a few prag games at low denom value. Most of the buys pay little. Its rare they pay close to the purchase buy let alone are even profitable.

There is no way most slot players could afford to buy features at $2 as at $200 a buy its just too expensive. Just watch the bandit and generally three out of four buys per slot is a loss. In some cases a massive loss. You could torch 1k on five bonuses in the space of two minutes. Don't get me started on those stupid super buys.

Anyway years ago before the time of bonus buys when you did get a feature generally speaking the features were decent. In my experience it was not common to get a feature that paid $0. It happened sure, but it didn't seem to happen regularly.

With some of my favourite slots, the features were diabolical to land. However when you did get the feature you had an expectation that you would get a decent payout. Generally that was the case. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Now whenever I get a bonus on slots most features are average. Last night I rolled in a bonus 5 times on Big Bass 1000. The biggest payout was 25x. The smallest was 15x. I know that for the most part bonuses are going to be dogshit and pay the bare minimum.

So - with bonus buys now the norm for most providers are they designed more for the bonus buy and not for just spinning in a bonus. If that is the case, perhaps its best to stick with providers that don't have bonus buys as part of the algorithm.

Just curious as you have posted similar comments about slots so i have some genuine and serious questions?

What sort of slots do you like?
How many spins on average do you think a feature should hit?
How much do you like the average feature to pay?
How much of the RTP should be in the base compared to feature? think hacksaw vs bonanza lol
What do you consider to be a good max win? or you prefer no capped max win?

I only ask as I have a project im working on that I might need a play tester for if your interested.

 

[spindoctor99]

Just curious as you have posted similar comments about slots so i have some genuine and serious questions?

What sort of slots do you like?
How many spins on average do you think a feature should hit?
How much do you like the average feature to pay?
How much of the RTP should be in the base compared to feature? think hacksaw vs bonanza lol
What do you consider to be a good max win? or you prefer no capped max win?

I only ask as I have a project im working on that I might need a play tester for if your interested.

Sure sounds interesting. I generally prefer medium volatility games. My favourite slots are Razortooth (old Quickspin slot) and Moon princess or Immortal romance.
I think most bonus buys should be between 50-75x max. There should also be a minimum win for a bonus buy.

No bonus buy should pay 0x or 1x. I also think slots should not have a maximum win. pragmatic for example set there max wins way too low. No max win should be 20x the cost of the buy, particularly when the buys can give you zero.

I know I bring up Vampy party a lot however, as an example. If you look at the cost of 5x scatters on a $0.20 stake its $57.60. If you try and gamble that to 256x it could easily lose 5, 10 or 20 times theoretically. Just watch the Bandit and see how many gambles he loses. With that in mind why the fuck is the max win just $1,000 when you could easily spend that gambling to 256x. You would be relying on getting a max win just to claw back losses. For me its a poorly designed slot and its one specifically built to tilt players.

I'm not a fan of hacksaw or no limit and generally don't play them. Their buys are just too expensive and way too volatile. I just dont see the logic in buying a super buy for $800 at a stake of $0.20

 

[Reelsoffun]

Sure sounds interesting. I generally prefer medium volatility games. My favourite slots are Razortooth (old Quickspin slot) and Moon princess or Immortal romance.
I think most bonus buys should be between 50-75x max. There should also be a minimum win for a bonus buy.

No bonus buy should pay 0x or 1x. I also think slots should not have a maximum win. pragmatic for example set there max wins way too low. No max win should be 20x the cost of the buy, particularly when the buys can give you zero.

I know I bring up Vampy party a lot however, as an example. If you look at the cost of 5x scatters on a $0.20 stake its $57.60. If you try and gamble that to 256x it could easily lose 5, 10 or 20 times theoretically. Just watch the Bandit and see how many gambles he loses. With that in mind why the fuck is the max win just $1,000 when you could easily spend that gambling to 256x. You would be relying on getting a max win just to claw back losses. For me its a poorly designed slot and its one specifically built to tilt players.

I'm not a fan of hacksaw or no limit and generally don't play them. Their buys are just too expensive and way too volatile. I just dont see the logic in buying a super buy for $800 at a stake of $0.20

Well i was expecting a non bonus buy senario for the stats etc but ok I will unpack the bit you said.

Well the 800x type BB are just pure hardened gamblers type of gaming all or nothing pretty much.

But BB where you can gamble for more spins etc are a way to make potential payouts better quicker etc

As for the max win being only 20x of BB etc well thats just purely because if they were 1000's of x of the bonus buy you would be at way over any casinos risk appetite for starters but even if they were up for it you would be back in the same territory as base game play taking many hundreds, thousands or tens of thousand spins for a max win to even thought about.

Also if you are only paying 50x for a bonus buy, with a min win then your really not going to have much to play with as far as RTP goes, your nearly asking for the impossible with that senario

What sort of stats would you expect from a standard no BB slot? like for example many older players consider 250 spins for a bonus a bit on the higher side etc

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

BB is just a way to make you play more expensively, and it usually comes with very low volatility (by very low I mean volatility below 2, where 2 equals the standard deviation). For comparison, a bet on dozens in roulette has a σ of 1.63 — and that’s exactly why your balance drains faster.

BB doesn’t affect bonus rounds triggered naturally. Any old slot can be re-released with a BB option, and it changes nothing — just like when NetEnt once released DoA 2 Bonus Buy.

By the way, BB High Noon Saloon is still highly volatile — around 11σ (for reference, Gate of Olympus sits at 11.6σ).

 

[spindoctor99]

Well i was expecting a non bonus buy senario for the stats etc but ok I will unpack the bit you said.

Well the 800x type BB are just pure hardened gamblers type of gaming all or nothing pretty much.

But BB where you can gamble for more spins etc are a way to make potential payouts better quicker etc

As for the max win being only 20x of BB etc well thats just purely because if they were 1000's of x of the bonus buy you would be at way over any casinos risk appetite for starters but even if they were up for it you would be back in the same territory as base game play taking many hundreds, thousands or tens of thousand spins for a max win to even thought about.

Also if you are only paying 50x for a bonus buy, with a min win then your really not going to have much to play with as far as RTP goes, your nearly asking for the impossible with that senario

What sort of stats would you expect from a standard no BB slot? like for example many older players consider 250 spins for a bonus a bit on the higher side etc

Realistically gamble based games should have a higher max pay. A $2k max win would be better considering the risk/potential losses.

Immortal Romance is a good example of a well designed slot. It pays well in the base game and it doesn't feel excessively hard to get the bonus. I was playing it a couple of weeks ago and jagged the bonus maybe 5-6 times in one session. The feature paid reasonably well.

I have far more confidence in Microgaming slots in that the bonus generally pays something half decent. I have zero faith in a pragmatic slot when it comes to bonuses.

I think its important for slots to have the potential to pay a decent amount in the base. You just can't rely on the feature to make money.

 

[spindoctor99]

BB is just a way to make you play more expensively, and it usually comes with very low volatility (by very low I mean volatility below 2, where 2 equals the standard deviation). For comparison, a bet on dozens in roulette has a σ of 1.63 — and that’s exactly why your balance drains faster.

BB doesn’t affect bonus rounds triggered naturally. Any old slot can be re-released with a BB option, and it changes nothing — just like when NetEnt once released DoA 2 Bonus Buy.

By the way, BB High Noon Saloon is still highly volatile — around 11σ (for reference, Gate of Olympus sits at 11.6σ).

I disagree completely that bonus buys come with low volatility. If you say a slot is low volatility then you would expect to have way more buys which are close to the bonus buy cost and that is just not the case. Its not uncommon on a big bass game to get features which are 10-15 x which cost 100x. In fact its normal to get just 15x on those big bass games. Its rare to get a big win. Bonus buys are designed to be high volatility - either you win big or win nothing.

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

I have far more confidence in Microgaming slots in that the bonus generally pays something half decent. I have zero faith in a pragmatic slot when it comes to bonuses.

It’s a subjective opinion — kind of like me not believing you can win at night, so I play in the mornings instead. You can verify this yourself if you collect enough data to draw conclusions — for example, by comparing the average results of 10,000 bonuses in Microgaming and 10,000 in Pragmatic.

P.S. Just to be clear, my goal isn’t to offend or criticize you — it’s simply to look at the question from a broader perspective.

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

I disagree completely that bonus buys come with low volatility. If you say a slot is low volatility then you would expect to have way more buys which are close to the bonus buy cost and that is just not the case. Its not uncommon on a big bass game to get features which are 10-15 x which cost 100x. In fact its normal to get just 15x on those big bass games. Its rare to get a big win. Bonus buys are designed to be high volatility - either you win big or win nothing.

Everything is relative and understood in comparison. If you compare the volatility of playing a slot versus buying a bonus in that same slot, the BB will be less volatile — but there’s an important nuance: that’s true if volatility is measured in bets.

In practice, it looks like this:
A $20 spin in Gate of Olympus has a volatility of 11.6σ.
A $20 BB in the same slot has a volatility of 1.6σ.
Feel the difference.

But if we compare a $2 spin with a volatility of 11.6 and a $200 bet with a volatility of 1.6, the second option is more volatile for your bankroll.

If volatility were 0, you would get exactly 0.96x (the slot’s RTP) on every spin.

And once again — even intuitively, think about how many base spins end up at zero compared to how many BBs do. A regular spin can also give you 5000x, while a BB usually tops out at around 50x.

 

[spindoctor99]

Everything is relative and understood in comparison. If you compare the volatility of playing a slot versus buying a bonus in that same slot, the BB will be less volatile — but there’s an important nuance: that’s true if volatility is measured in bets.

In practice, it looks like this:
A $20 spin in Gate of Olympus has a volatility of 11.6σ.
A $20 BB in the same slot has a volatility of 1.6σ.
Feel the difference.

But if we compare a $2 spin with a volatility of 11.6 and a $200 bet with a volatility of 1.6, the second option is more volatile for your bankroll.

If volatility were 0, you would get exactly 0.96x (the slot’s RTP) on every spin.

And once again — even intuitively, think about how many base spins end up at zero compared to how many BBs do. A regular spin can also give you 5000x, while a BB usually tops out at around 50x.

Bonus buys only work if you have big balance. Either streamers or well off gamblers. Due to the volatile nature of bb's. It's rare you buy one and its a win.

As an example a couple of weeks ago I requested statistics from one of the casino's I visited. I have purchased 119 bonus buys at one casino on Vampy party. I buy them at $57.60 and take the free spins. Its rare that I gamble it. My total expenditure is $6,910. I have won on bonus buys $5,080. My top 4 wins on this game were $960, $820, $715 & $460 which come to $2,955.

This means the other 115 bonuses averaged a paltry $18 per buy.

On Saturday I purchased 5 of these bonuses at a total cost of $288. The return for all five was around $40.. not even a single buy. These features you say are low volatility but that's complete horseshit. My statistics from this one slot alone shows how volatile in nature they are. My stats from book of monsters are equally poor.. sugar rush is no better.

The fact remains, providers like pragmatic bring out these garbage slots with free spin bonus buys but they are designed more like a god mode feature. You win heaps or nothing.

Any bonus buy that costs 100x or more is not low volatility.

 

[dunover]

Bonus buys only work if you have big balance. Either streamers or well off gamblers. Due to the volatile nature of bb's. It's rare you buy one and its a win.

As an example a couple of weeks ago I requested statistics from one of the casino's I visited. I have purchased 119 bonus buys at one casino on Vampy party. I buy them at $57.60 and take the free spins. Its rare that I gamble it. My total expenditure is $6,910. I have won on bonus buys $5,080. My top 4 wins on this game were $960, $820, $715 & $460 which come to $2,955.

This means the other 115 bonuses averaged a paltry $18 per buy.

On Saturday I purchased 5 of these bonuses at a total cost of $288. The return for all five was around $40.. not even a single buy. These features you say are low volatility but that's complete horseshit. My statistics from this one slot alone shows how volatile in nature they are. My stats from book of monsters are equally poor.. sugar rush is no better.

The fact remains, providers like pragmatic bring out these garbage slots with free spin bonus buys but they are designed more like a god mode feature. You win heaps or nothing.

Any bonus buy that costs 100x or more is not low volatility.

Yes, I see your point - BTG slots for example have relatively low bonus buy costs ranging from 50-100x although even they now are introducing more loaded ones at hundreds-times-stake. And that lower cost is reflected in lower potential and higher average returns in relation to the cost, but the huge wins are correspondingly rarer.

So we have gone in a full loop, different slots of varying volatility now judged on bonus buys instead of base-game play.

 

[spindoctor99]

Yes, I see your point - BTG slots for example have relatively low bonus buy costs ranging from 50-100x although even they now are introducing more loaded ones at hundreds-times-stake. And that lower cost is refected in lower potential and higher average returns in relation to the cost, but the huge wins are correspondingly rarer.

So we have gone in a full loop, different slots of varying volatility now judged on bonus buys instead of base-game play.

Does anyone even play some of these pragmatic games in base play? The only game I play by prag are the big bass series. I would never play the gamble based games as it could take an hour to get it, you gamble it and lose immediately. Hardly seems worth the hassle.

I personally think they should just ban bonus buys and scrap them. Streamers may not like it but most are fake anyway.

 

[dunover]

Does anyone even play some of these pragmatic games in base play? The only game I play by prag are the big bass series. I would never play the gamble based games as it could take an hour to get it, you gamble it and lose immediately. Hardly seems worth the hassle.

I personally think they should just ban bonus buys and scrap them. Streamers may not like it but most are fake anyway.

The Bandit does sometimes if you watch his videos, slam dunks them on higher stakes to try and trigger natural bonuses which would be too costly to buy at same high stake. I've got to say, on balance they do seem to pay less well than the purchased ones, which I would expect for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

Bonus buys only work if you have big balance. Either streamers or well off gamblers. Due to the volatile nature of bb's. It's rare you buy one and its a win.

As an example a couple of weeks ago I requested statistics from one of the casino's I visited. I have purchased 119 bonus buys at one casino on Vampy party. I buy them at $57.60 and take the free spins. Its rare that I gamble it. My total expenditure is $6,910. I have won on bonus buys $5,080. My top 4 wins on this game were $960, $820, $715 & $460 which come to $2,955.

This means the other 115 bonuses averaged a paltry $18 per buy.

On Saturday I purchased 5 of these bonuses at a total cost of $288. The return for all five was around $40.. not even a single buy. These features you say are low volatility but that's complete horseshit. My statistics from this one slot alone shows how volatile in nature they are. My stats from book of monsters are equally poor.. sugar rush is no better.

The fact remains, providers like pragmatic bring out these garbage slots with free spin bonus buys but they are designed more like a god mode feature. You win heaps or nothing.

Any bonus buy that costs 100x or more is not low volatility.

If you buy 119 bonus buys, the results will still be extremely volatile — even 119 bets on red or black in roulette are a microscopic sample that means nothing. But compared to regular slot play without BB, buying bonuses is actually less volatile.

Once again: in Gate of Olympus, regular spins at $20 are about ten times more volatile than a $20 bonus buy (11.6 vs 1.6, using standard deviation as the volatility measure).

 

[SpinUk]

If you buy 119 bonus buys, the results will still be extremely volatile — even 119 bets on red or black in roulette are a microscopic sample that means nothing. But compared to regular slot play without BB, buying bonuses is actually less volatile.

Once again: in Gate of Olympus, regular spins at $20 are about ten times more volatile than a $20 bonus buy (11.6 vs 1.6, using standard deviation as the volatility measure).

But the RTP will remain the same no? So does it matter so much?

 

[spindoctor99]

But the RTP will remain the same no? So does it matter so much?

If you buy 119 bonus buys, the results will still be extremely volatile — even 119 bets on red or black in roulette are a microscopic sample that means nothing. But compared to regular slot play without BB, buying bonuses is actually less volatile.

Once again: in Gate of Olympus, regular spins at $20 are about ten times more volatile than a $20 bonus buy (11.6 vs 1.6, using standard deviation as the volatility measure).

Your seriously saying that buying bonus buys is less volatile? In what planet is this the case? I watch quite a few streamers. I've yet to find a streamer who thinks bonus buys are less volatile. Streamers only buy them as its easy content and they can skip the boring spinning and go straight to a feature. They aren't buying them because its less volatile and value for money.

To compare a $20 spin against a $20 bonus buy has no validity for a number of reasons. For a start, a $20 bonus buy has a base rate of $0.20. That's not the same as a base rate of $20. Very few people are just playing the slots at $20 a spin. Regardless of your argument - even on a $20 bonus buy on Gates of Olympus you will be struggling to get your money back. If anything you will either get fuck all or a decent hit. Its one of the two.

What your trying to say is - a bonus buy on $0.20 has more of a chance of hitting something than just spinning $20 spins - and that was never what the post was about.

The majority of users on casino's are not high rollers. Just average people with a few bucks to spend. Bonus buys just drain them off their balance quicker, that's all.

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

If we measure volatility in stakes, then yes. I’m as sure about that as I am that the capital of Italy is Rome. It’s a fact. Believe it or not. If we compare a $0.20 spin and a $20 bonus buy, then for your bankroll the BB will be more volatile.

That’s the correct comparison, because in both cases $20 is deducted from your balance.

 

[DreamRJ]

If we measure volatility in stakes, then yes. I’m as sure about that as I am that the capital of Italy is Rome. It’s a fact. Believe it or not. If we compare a $0.20 spin and a $20 bonus buy, then for your bankroll the BB will be more volatile.

That’s the correct comparison, because in both cases $20 is deducted from your balance.

AI?

 

[spindoctor99]

AI?

Hmmm - I was thinking he worked for a slot development company to be honest haha

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

So say played normally the game pays 96% with 76+20% as the bonus pool, you now get 96% from the bonus pool and zero from base game.

What you will notice though is a higher average bonus buy result compared to the bonus values gleaned from the game played normally. It sounds like this effect is what you are observing.

It sounds logical, and it seems the conclusion is that the average win in a bonus buy is higher than in a regular bonus. But on the other hand, bonuses with identical mechanics should yield the same result.

I have a little over one million demo spins from Gates of Olympus. Among those, there were 2,018 bonus rounds triggered during regular spins. The average win from those bonus rounds came out to 94.93, and I haven’t yet figured out how to explain that.

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

AI?

Hmmm - I was thinking he worked for a slot development company to be honest haha

No, more like an independent researcher and a player who has played through thousands of bonuses and won $1,000,000 races.
By the way, there’s a thread here where a developer answers questions . I’m sure he would confirm the points about volatility

 

[spindoctor99]

It sounds logical, and it seems the conclusion is that the average win in a bonus buy is higher than in a regular bonus. But on the other hand, bonuses with identical mechanics should yield the same result.

I have a little over one million demo spins from Gates of Olympus. Among those, there were 2,018 bonus rounds triggered during regular spins. The average win from those bonus rounds came out to 94.93, and I haven’t yet figured out how to explain that.

What a horrible slot to to do over a million spins on.

 

[spindoctor99]

What a horrible slot to to do over a million spins on.

What was the base rate for those million spins?

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

Why terrible? It’s one of the most popular ones — that’s the only reason I used it as an example. I actually hit the max win once.
By the way, if you buy bonuses, the max win happens roughly once every 3101 BBs.

 

[spindoctor99]

Why terrible? It’s one of the most popular ones — that’s the only reason I used it as an example. I actually hit the max win once.
By the way, if you buy bonuses, the max win happens roughly once every 3101 BBs.

On what slot is that? I am assuming your referring to gates of Olympus only for the max win per 3101 buys??

 

[Casinos Hate Winners]

On what slot is that? I am assuming your referring to gates of Olympus only for the max win per 3101 buys??

Gate of Olympus – 1.2M spins – one max win of 5000x, σ = 11.6
Gate of Olympus Bonus Buy – 1M bonuses – max win once every 1 in 3101, σ = 1.6

 

[billion]

The old RNG things were/are set at %RTP and were fine if it was an honest RTP that was posted. What's going on now is the advent of the banking games where bonus rounds and scatter free spins are incorporated into the games.

Those are banking games and collect any number of percentage of all the wagers towards the bank. If you wonder why the banks are mostly empty when you get the bonus/freespins, it depends on how the casinos want to control their cash flow and done through the RAM (Random Access Memory).

Control is everything nowadays. Goodluck.

 

[billion]

The old RNG things were/are set at %RTP and were fine if it was an honest RTP that was posted. What's going on now is the advent of the banking games where bonus rounds and scatter free spins are incorporated into the games.

Those are banking games and collect any number of percentage of all the wagers towards the bank. If you wonder why the banks are mostly empty when you get the bonus/freespins, it depends on how the casinos want to control their cash flow and done through the RAM (Random Access Memory).

Control is everything nowadays. Goodluck.

Forgot this. I believe that the bonus buys are not part of the regular game and its banking. I believe they are an aside game with its own banking and RTP.