Provider

[Eliot85]

Anyone winning on casino or is there a big inflation on the slots. Just a really expansive entertainment. Dosent matter wich provider. Unblevible how much slots have changed. What the point are the provider trying to kill the market, they have totaly lost respekt for the players.. spining 4-500 spins to trigger bonus and they pay 10-30x. Does all have to be streamers to have a chance on a win or what is it.. It is just like scratchard.. I now Netent is the biggest scam of them all so i changed to different provider but its almost the same there.

How do u all play? Is it just bonus buy or do u spin until u trigger a bonus. Slots in 2010-2016 was really fun and when i got a bonus most of the time atleast u know u hade a cashout..

It seems the provider have lost all respekt to players, just rob the players as much as they can..

 

[snorky510238]

Totally agree. The industry has become a total scam. It’s probably partly due to the amount of players self-excluding. The Casinos/Providers still need to see profit growth so with less players, the only way to maintain that is to screw the remaining ones.

This type of business has an optimum point where the incline in revenue will occur relatively quickly at first, as it did. The problem is, as it is pretty much unregulated by anyone who has more than one brain cell between their ears, it becomes saturated very quickly too. Ultimately, this leads to a rapid decline.

No limit on the amount of Casinos in a lot of countries. No limit on the amount of games or providers allowed. All too quickly, the pie that was once big enough to keep everyone happy, including the players, needs to be cut a lot more ways. That means some don’t get a slice and the ones that do aren’t happy with a thin wedge.

The only way to increase the slice at this point is to stop giving bonuses (happened ages ago), reduce rtp’s (happened ages ago) and reduce rtp some more (currently happened).

All in all, you have a mirror image of what has happened with high street betting shops over the past 20 years.

20 years ago, you had to queue to get on one of the betting terminals. 10 years ago people started to get fed up of getting rinsed because games didn’t payout like they used to. Walk past one nowadays and very few people bother with them at all.

Exactly the same is happening with online gambling. More and more people are finding it isn’t a viable hobby any longer and are self-excluding. The Casinos know this and are taking the opportunity to make hay before the sun disappears behind the hill, never to rise again.

 

[jasonuk]

No limit on the amount of Casinos in a lot of countries. No limit on the amount of games or providers allowed. All too quickly, the pie that was once big enough to keep everyone happy, including the players, needs to be cut a lot more ways. That means some don’t get a slice and the ones that do aren’t happy with a thin wedge.

Spot on... so many providers out there now-a-days, and so little innovation.

In the beginning it was good for the player, as the value-for-money era we saw the RTP jump 1-2% across the board - why play that provider's Book of Knockoff at 95%, when you can play our Book of Knockoff at 96, 97 (or even 99%).

Then watching 200+ providers trying to clone their way into money - whether it be Megaways, Book of Ra, Fishin Frenzy, Lightning Link, or descending into the hellhole that became bonus buys and "streamer slots".

And then operators realised they too could play the providers off against each other - and instead of a race to the top, it quickly became a race to the bottom - giving top billing to those willing to develop and deploy lower RTP models for them. But hey, this 90% game is the same great game as the 96% game we just removed - honest! (narrator: it was not)

Combining the significant drop in RTP, with the "streamer slot" mentality (shoving significant percentages of RTP into jackpots and/or 1000x plus wins) then it's not a surprise in the slightest people feel they're not getting a fair game anymore - if you compare a classic NetEnt, Microgaming or WMS with a modern offering from the hundreds of providers out there - at median luck you are losing anything from 1.5 to 5 times faster than before. We can't all have unlimited monopoly money and streamer luck...

And of course, that's not considering everyone else wanting a piece of the pie - only have to look at the mess in Germany with a ghastly 5% tax on player stakes. Problematic for sports betting, but absolutely destroys other casino games when the entire house edge is 1-4% ? quadruple zero roulette anybody? :machinegunner:

 

[OliverCooper]

Anyone winning on casino or is there a big inflation on the slots. Just a really expansive entertainment. Dosent matter wich provider. Unblevible how much slots have changed. What the point are the provider trying to kill the market, they have totaly lost respekt for the players.. spining 4-500 spins to trigger bonus and they pay 10-30x. Does all have to be streamers to have a chance on a win or what is it.. It is just like scratchard.. I now Netent is the biggest scam of them all so i changed to different provider but its almost the same there.

How do u all play? Is it just bonus buy or do u spin until u trigger a bonus. Slots in 2010-2016 was really fun and when i got a bonus most of the time atleast u know u hade a cashout..

It seems the provider have lost all respekt to players, just rob the players as much as they can..

I`m still interested in this topic apparently only because I did not play in 2010-2016

 

[kennygamerboy]

What I've noticed is you can deposit hundreds and not see one bonus slots are now taking a long time to drop and that's partly due to the fact we can't buy bonus buys its a shit hole uk gambling and its only gonna get worse. Whole industry stinks

 

[Eliot85]

I`m still interested in this topic apparently only because I did not play in 2010-2016

That time imo o got a lot more playtime for your money. A lot more wins on basegame to keep you playing and WHEN bonus was triggered 7/10 time it was a cashout. Nowdays nothing in basegame and when u trigger bonus of 10 frespins 6-7 are deadspins

 

[snorky510238]

What I've noticed is you can deposit hundreds and not see one bonus slots are now taking a long time to drop and that's partly due to the fact we can't buy bonus buys its a shit hole uk gambling and its only gonna get worse. Whole industry stinks

Rotten all the way through mate. It’s not even subtle, just a blatant piss take. Just shows, there are no regulating bodies worth a shite.

 

[johnnybagel]

Did they used to all be so volatile and have these massive max payout potentials? Is it more that the RTP is all going to a few players rather than being spread out?

 

[jasonuk]

Did they used to all be so volatile and have these massive max payout potentials? Is it more that the RTP is all going to a few players rather than being spread out?

The best phrasing I've heard over the years is suitably rare - the profile has certainly changed in recent years.

If we look back at a decade ago - something like Immortal Romance was your high variance beast and Dead or Alive or Break Da Bank Again were your ultra-high variance beasts.

Immortal Romance has a 12150x pay for a five wild reel Wild Desire - but 4 wilds will be around the 1000x mark, and 3 wilds can potentially hit the 500x mark (or land 3-4-5 and pay zero ?). Beyond that, it's pretty rare to get above 500x - a substantial Wild Vine bonus perhaps.

Dead or Alive goes up to around 13000x for the dream bonus - contrast with 111000x of the modern successor.

Break Da Bank Again was all about the one big line hit - 5 gems, with wild, in the bonus was worth around 4000x. It was known as a spicy proposition and people would lower their bets when playing, fully aware a 15 spin bonus could pay literally zero.

--

I would personally point to two events here - Bonanza with the 1 in 450 bonus frequency (which raised a lot of eyebrows at the time, when 1 in 150-200 was the norm) and then bonus buys as a whole. It's not uncommon now-a-days to hear of 1 in 500, 750 or 1000 frequency (every 40, 60 or 80 minutes at UKGC speed) - which makes for a miserably experience when playing slots designed for the bonus buy first rather than the whole experience.

When it comes to the streamers - not only do you have considerably more streamers, but they're spinning considerably faster - it wasn't unusual to see an old school streamer doing 500 spins an hour; when we're seeing 500x, 1000x, 2000x or more bonus buys... it's entirely plausible that an old school streamer would need days or weeks to hit one - but the monopoly streamer can click a button.

Once the whole lure of "max win" (in my day, they didn't have max wins... ?) took hold, providers followed the trend and the incentive to push more and more RTP upwards for "streamer wins" - combined with the triple whammy of more progressive jackpot contributions and lower headline RTP (house edge increasing from 3-6% to 4-12%)... makes for a much more brutal experience.

Personally, I still play a lot of the older slots at their original setting (if I can find them) - although my experience with "streamer slots" has given me a renewed interest in watching paint dry... it's more interesting!

 

[OliverCooper]

That time imo o got a lot more playtime for your money. A lot more wins on basegame to keep you playing and WHEN bonus was triggered 7/10 time it was a cashout. Nowdays nothing in basegame and when u trigger bonus of 10 frespins 6-7 are deadspins

It turns out that we can say that everything has changed unexpectedly on the contrary

 

[Mr_Slot5]

What I've noticed is you can deposit hundreds and not see one bonus slots are now taking a long time to drop and that's partly due to the fact we can't buy bonus buys

IMO bonus buys were never an issue in the first place.

Bonus buy or no bonus buy you still have to play within the confines of your deposit. Let’s be honest, the aim of most slots is to hit the bonus and a lot of RTP is tied up in them. There are times when I’d rather buy it for 100x my stake than spin 200 times with no autoplay or quick spin allowed and still not see the bonus anyway.

There just seems to be no common sense in some of the regulation.

 

[justdoit]

now I feel slots are paying one time a week, 1 day for players 6 days for providers and casinos, all industry is fked spacial UK, Old day even Red Tiger was paying more, they even going as high as 50x on wagering, old days Calzon casino was 25X wagering, early 2000 888casino they give you every £1000 deposit £100 free game play no wagering, They Say free spins offer on £0.05 or £0.10 and they fk you up with 50x wagering on it, Is not free spin is more like scam spins offer,
Still crypto casino am getting more fun and more for my money
PNG is not the best provider but for me is the only one fair play, No extra bets no Bonus buy.. Simply fair to anyone

 

[justdoit]

That time imo o got a lot more playtime for your money. A lot more wins on basegame to keep you playing and WHEN bonus was triggered 7/10 time it was a cashout. Nowdays nothing in basegame and when u trigger bonus of 10 frespins 6-7 are deadspins

last 2 years they pushed extra bets, now they start pushing to 5 spin bonus, from 5 spins bonus you get 4 dead spins one spin on 10-20x win

 

[BetterValueCasino]

The gross margins for slot games, generally, have gone ridiculously high. Let's say you're spinning slots at one spin every 2.7 seconds, that is 1,333 spins per hour. If you're spinning at a stake of £1 each, that's a betting turnover of £ 1,000 if you play the slot for just over 45 minutes.

If the RTP is 94%, the casino and its suppliers is making an aggregate mean average gross profit +/- variance of £60 profit per player per 45 minutes of gameplay. As some or even many players may be going short on resources to fund this level of profitability to the providers and casino operators, the whole situation is truly appalling.

I have spoken to a medium sized slot provider company's CEO during a 15 minute meeting in February in London. The gentleman certainly had a professional company with fairly impressive looking slots, but he quoted me 94% as the standard RTP he offered to most of his online casino customers internationally. I said that was way too low for our own customers, are the slots available at a much greater percentage RTP?

Yes, he said, his company could modify the slot mathematics for us to generate a higher RTP, however he then said "But how would you make any money?". I didn't give him an answer to this, but the answer is it's easy! Players can play for much longer at higher RTPs, more chance that they can go away with a win or a big win, less chance that they leave the casino never to return, much higher chance they can be made happy overall with their betting activities.

Also, what's the point in having super massive jackpots, with extremely small chance of the massive win, if 99%+ of the players have the experience of just losing their money with nothing given in return, just flashing lights and animated cartoons and similar. That then is not entertainment.

I agree absolutely 100% with the points made in this thread, I'm pleased that the Casinomeister forum members have been able to wise up to this, and post highly intelligent observations about the present state of affairs with online slots. The last time I played slots myself was over a year ago, I played Age of the Gods at Betfair. I had made several deposits for it and finally struck a bonus, great I thought - then the bonus played out with the god 'Athena' selected to give me hopefully a big win... yeah £1 total I got for that bonus. I too stopped playing after that.

 

[jasonuk]

IMO bonus buys were never an issue in the first place.

Bonus buy or no bonus buy you still have to play within the confines of your deposit. Let’s be honest, the aim of most slots is to hit the bonus and a lot of RTP is tied up in them. There are times when I’d rather buy it for 100x my stake than spin 200 times with no autoplay or quick spin allowed and still not see the bonus anyway.

There just seems to be no common sense in some of the regulation.

I would agree with you for earlier iterations of bonus buys - the earliest examples like White Rabbit at 100x to buy, and you would be incredibly unlucky not to get 30x back. However they became an out of control monster - not only with increasingly ridiculous buys (500x, 750x, 1000x, 2000x and 3000x) but with insane volatility to match (including bonuses paying micro-wins ?).

For some of the "streamer slot" providers, I would argue that the base game is essentially a "pre-game" for jurisdictions where bonus buys are banned. The amount of RTP attributed to the bonus has shifted considerably - 25% used to be a fairly common percentage, some of the latest offerings I wouldn't be surprised if the amount is north of 75%.

I would have preferred the regulation to be heavier on deposit controls rather than micromanaging play styles (bonus buy ban, shadow loss limits, £2 and £5 maximum bets etc), but for me the industry pandering to streamer slots has done considerable damage - and I don't think players fully appreciate what insane volatility is yet.

To take a roulette example:

• White Rabbit - a quarter of the money left on the rail, half of the money on low-risk bets (dozens and columns) and the last quarter clustered around one number.
• A. N. Other "streamer slot" - a quarter of the money on low-risk bets, the rest clustered around a couple of numbers for the "max win" potential [after all, some of the "max wins" now are as low as 25x... which is basically a straight up on roulette but with more lights and sounds ?]