Betfair Account Closed - large balance

[cdl2002]

Hi,

Quick advice if possible.

Betfair account opened. Deposit 3-4 transactions using 3rd party card. Circa £4K. Long story short huge casino win of over £300K - now account saying closed and account is under review my management, whats the likely outcome here?? review has been ongoing for 3 weeks.

Thanks

 

[scott dickson]

If the card was not the same name as the casino account owner then i would be prepared to get nothing. It's unfortunate but it should clearly state cards must be the same name as the casino account

 

[cdl2002]

That was my gut feeling... took some advice on this legally yesterday.. they said very unusual after submitting documents 3 weeks ago that the account is still under review so didn't know if this have a glimmer of hope. Legal suggested should not have been able to deposit multiple transactions on 3rd party card but let's see... any advice or previous similar situations would help! I guess the size of the win has not helped...

 

[scott dickson]

Honestly don't think the size of the win matters.

It probably would of happened anyway because of the 3rd party transactions. They have to do this incase you made an account for somebody who is on gamstop otherwise why wouldn't the card owner just make an account in their name?

 

[itsme123]

Why did you use a third party card? I think it’s in the T&C’s on most sites that deposits must be made using cards in the name of the account owner.

 

[cdl2002]

Money was owed from mate and he deposited as we were having a bet jointly... never expected this

 

[jasonuk]

If the card was not the same name as the casino account owner then i would be prepared to get nothing. It's unfortunate but it should clearly state cards must be the same name as the casino account

We get these threads occasionally, but the size of this win is fairly unique - unfortunately I have to agree with Scott here. The rules are crystal clear on third party transactions - and it's plausible that you won't receive a penny of that win I'm afraid.

Why did you use a third party card? I think it’s in the T&C’s on most sites that deposits must be made using cards in the name of the account owner.

It is, sites have to be extremely careful because it's an trivial way to breach AML regulations. In the case of the OP £4k is enough to trigger additional customer due diligence checks, which the customer will obviously fail because it's not their card or sourced funds.

So even if the OP hadn't won big, that Betfair account was likely on borrowed time as a failure to complete CDD mandates account closure as per the UKGC regulations.

That was my gut feeling... took some advice on this legally yesterday.. they said very unusual after submitting documents 3 weeks ago that the account is still under review so didn't know if this have a glimmer of hope. Legal suggested should not have been able to deposit multiple transactions on 3rd party card but let's see... any advice or previous similar situations would help! I guess the size of the win has not helped...

There is a widespread misconception of how much is checked (and by who) when making card payments - and much like self-exclusion fraud before it, there has been an uptick of threads in recent years of people trying that angle as a way to freeroll the casino.

As the casino is able to "roll back" the position up until the point of withdrawal, they can - and often do - defer those secondary checks until withdrawal. It would be nice if the financial sector would tidy this up so all parties are on the same page, but I guess it's a limitation of the payment system.


As people will inevitably mention the complaints procedure, it's worth clarifying three things here:

• How the default process works (complaint, internal escalation, ADR) -
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• The ADR process is not binding for claims of more than £10,000
• Legal action is separate from this process, the UKGC usually references it as a post-ADR step, but it also caveats that with seeking legal advice (as you already have).

As to the terms themselves, Section 11 basically answers your question, the

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in part:

11.1 You may only use the Services, including your Account, for lawful gambling in accordance with these General Terms. You may not engage in any activity which we define below as a "Prohibited Activity" and you acknowledge and understand that the consequences of you doing so, as we made clear in the 'Important Note' at the beginning of these General Terms, will (depending on the particular circumstances) include the voiding of any relevant transactions, the withholding of any winnings, and the suspension and/or closure of your Account.

11.2 The following activities are prohibited (each a "Prohibited Activity"):

• 11.2.1 if the name registered on your Account does not match the name on the financial/bank account and/or the debit (or where permitted, credit) card(s) used to make deposits on that Account;
• 11.2.5 if you use the Services other than for your own personal and recreational use, including if you are acting on behalf of any third party in connection with your Account;
• 11.2.8 if you allow (whether intentionally or unintentionally) someone else to use your Account;

 

[cdl2002]

All advice above is greatly appreciated!

Any ideas why after 3 weeks still no definitive no we are not paying?

 

[jasonuk]

For the amount in question, I would assume there is a large progressive win involved.

If that is the case, then the game provider will also be involved and thus there are additional conversations that need to happen before they conclude the investigation (and the game provider is likely the slowest of the three parties). A progressive jackpot is funded by player contributions, so there are stricter rules on what happens to the money in the event of such a transaction being voided.

 

[chiya]

Money was owed from mate and he deposited as we were having a bet jointly... never expected this

Why didn't he just make an account under his name, then?

I've gambled slots as a joint effort with friends and family too. Thing is, we always make sure to deposit money from our own bank accounts to our own casino accounts.

The sad thing about this case and many other cases like this, is that the casino didn't give a shit as to where the money was coming from until it was time to pay. They're happy to take your money as long as you don't win even if you're breaching their terms. But even so, you're not gonna win this one. Maybe they'll return your deposits at most.

 

[winner2021]

A 300k win when you'd only just opened an account? Wow you must be the luckiest person in the world. Or unluckiest I guess...

 

[cdl2002]

Unluckiest it looks like.... so frustrating but I guess given the value of the win this is why it's taking so long... even though they probably won't pay out... I suppose if nothing else it highlights the issue around the ease of using 3rd party cards which in todays world of technology you would hope it would be much tighter

 

[cdl2002]

For the amount in question, I would assume there is a large progressive win involved.

If that is the case, then the game provider will also be involved and thus there are additional conversations that need to happen before they conclude the investigation (and the game provider is likely the slowest of the three parties). A progressive jackpot is funded by player contributions, so there are stricter rules on what happens to the money in the event of such a transaction being voided.

This was pretty much all live dealer blackjack

 

[scott dickson]

If it was mostly live dealer blackjack I guess it's taking so long because they will be checking with the provider to make sure there was no advantage play (card counting etc).

Did you try to withdraw to the 3rd party card or to your own card?

 

[cdl2002]

If it was mostly live dealer blackjack I guess it's taking so long because they will be checking with the provider to make sure there was no advantage play (card counting etc).

Did you try to withdraw to the 3rd party card or to your own card?

It was to 3rd party card as was
Not allowing to add new card until verification done...

 

[jasonuk]

Did you try to withdraw to the 3rd party card or to your own card?

They would - where possible - try to close the loop (AML regulations), so any outstanding net deposits would be settled first (withdrawals to the third party card). After that, there may be more flexibility but it usually makes more sense to stick with the same payment method if you can.

Although not that it matters here, the CDD would be triggered on the deposits (£2000+), which is where the headaches are going to start. And as per UKGC regulations any withdrawals will be suspended until that process is completed - which is unlikely to happen with a third party card.

 

[cdl2002]

They would - where possible - try to close the loop (AML regulations), so any outstanding net deposits would be settled first (withdrawals to the third party card). After that, there may be more flexibility but it usually makes more sense to stick with the same payment method if you can.

Although not that it matters here, the CDD would be triggered on the deposits (£2000+), which is where the headaches are going to start. And as per UKGC regulations any withdrawals will be suspended until that process is completed - which is unlikely to happen with a third party card.

In all honesty you think they will end up refunding the initial deposits to 3rd party card and that's the end of it? Winnings they will hold onto?

 

[scott dickson]

Getting deposits refunded is probably best case scenario tbh but I'm not sure how a casino would handle this due to it clearly states not to use a 3rd party card.

 

[jasonuk]

Getting deposits refunded is probably best case scenario tbh but I'm not sure how a casino would handle this due to it clearly states not to use a 3rd party card.

Having a dig through the T&Cs again...

13.5 Any balance in your Account at the time of any closure by us will be paid back to you, except that:

• 13.5.1 if you have engaged in illegal activity, we are under no obligation to refund to you any money that may be in your Account; and
• 13.5.2 if we discover or determine (acting reasonably) that you have participated in any Prohibited Activities then we will void any affected transactions/Bets/string of connected Bets, withhold all or part of your Account balance which is attributable to those Prohibited Activities, recover from your Account deposits, pay-outs, bonuses and/or any winnings (if/as applicable) which are attributable to those Prohibited Activities and/or take any other action that we deem necessary. If you have withdrawn any sums which are attributable to Prohibited Activities, such sums shall be deemed to be held by you on trust for us and must be immediately repaid to us when a demand for payment is made by us to you.

13.5.1 shouldn't apply because it was done - albeit naively - with the cardholder's permission.
13.5.2 gives them wiggle room for both outcomes - they can "void any affected transactions" (e.g. return the money to the third party), but also "withhold all or part of your account balance which is attributable to those prohibited activities".

Additionally the CDD regulations come into play here (given the deposits exceed the £2000 trigger limit), which adds further complexity to the situation.

I have to agree with Scott's unease and I guess it'll depend on which (conflicting in this instance) ruleset they lean on - T&Cs is more likely to be confiscated, CDD is more likely to be returned.

 

[cdl2002]

Having a dig through the T&Cs again...


13.5.1 shouldn't apply because it was done - albeit naively - with the cardholder's permission.
13.5.2 gives them wiggle room for both outcomes - they can "void any affected transactions" (e.g. return the money to the third party), but also "withhold all or part of your account balance which is attributable to those prohibited activities".

Additionally the CDD regulations come into play here (given the deposits exceed the £2000 trigger limit), which adds further complexity to the situation.

I have to agree with Scott's unease and I guess it'll depend on which (conflicting in this instance) ruleset they lean on - T&Cs is more likely to be confiscated, CDD is more likely to be returned.

Thanks I really appreciate all the assistance you have given on this, I guess just a waiting game and see how long it plays out... currently at 3 weeks - any opinion on when a likely outcome will arrive?

 

[jasonuk]

any opinion on when a likely outcome will arrive?

I can't give you a good answer on that one I'm afraid - but it's going to be on the longer side given the complexity of the situation.

 

[scott dickson]

I don't know if casinomeister have good contacts at Betfair @jasonuk might be able to answer that.

If they do it might be worth filing a PAB probably still won't get the answer your hoping for but it might hurry things along so you get an answer sooner rather than later.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

I hate to sound harsh but using anybody's payment methods but your own is always going to lead to big trouble and usually a loss of money. I am still surprised anybody who gambles online isn't aware of this. I hope you get something back but I think you'd be lucky to get any winnings.

 

[jasonuk]

I don't know if casinomeister have good contacts at Betfair @jasonuk might be able to answer that.

If they do it might be worth filing a PAB probably still won't get the answer your hoping for but it might hurry things along so you get an answer sooner rather than later.

While @maxd would be the one to confirm that, I strongly suspect the answer is still no ? - they are still "not recommended" and previously in the rogue pit for this infamous incident... Betfair's infamous "unlimited happy hour bonus" - 2010 - Casinomeister Forum

 

[cdl2002]

Messaged them Friday still saying under review... is there no timescale to work towards? Surely can't be totally open ended?

 

[dealer wins]

Im sorry to say I agree with the other posters, you will at best get your deposits back.

Betfair are scum of the earth, they F'ed my over for £9k a few years back when I had done nothing wrong and they set up dual markets on darts in error. I DMed them and they replied feel free to use either market, then voided all my winning bets later that evening.

I took it all the way to the regulator, and they sided with BF even after they admitted my DMs were legit.

 

[cdl2002]

Im sorry to say I agree with the other posters, you will at best get your deposits back.

Betfair are scum of the earth, they F'ed my over for £9k a few years back when I had done nothing wrong and they set up dual markets on darts in error. I DMed them and they replied feel free to use either market, then voided all my winning bets later that evening.

I took it all the way to the regulator, and they sided with BF even after they admitted my DMs were legit.

yeah wouldn't surprise me but surprised it's 3 weeks in and not sorted?

 

[cdl2002]

yeah wouldn't surprise me but surprised it's 3 weeks in and not sorted?

Morning All,

Another week has come and gone contacted today again said no update... I asked re internal complaints procedure and was told they will only provide the same information...

Just a bit frustrating... any suggestions on what to do next?

 

[cdl2002]

Good evening,

Still no communication from them on this... any thoughts on the next steps
Please?

 

[The Dude]

I was going to suggest for you to submit a complaint here, but since it's Betfair they will give us a "speak to the hand" move - we've been here before. They are about as useless as a houseplant when it comes to solving problems.

Hopefully @maxd can give you some input on this. I am not sure who Betfair's ADR is (probably IBAS), and I'm not sure if they'd be able ot help or not.

 

[maxd]

@cdl2002 , I wish I had something constructive to add but I'm afraid what Bryan has said above is pretty much the full story: Betfair is big enough that they can and will totally ignore anyone that isn't in a position to make it painful for them to do otherwise. That said, I see four options here, none of them a guarantee of any sort:

1. Post your case in any and all social media. This __may__ prompt BF to settle your issue with you simply in order to shut you up. Chances of success: marginal, and you may simply piss them off such that they dig in their heels and NEVER pay you a damn thing just out of spite.

2. File a complaint with us via the PAB process. There is a slim chance that receiving the complaint through us will prompt them to contact you directly to settle the matter. Chances of success: pretty much zero, but hey, it's free!

3. Follow the complaints procedure given in BF's Terms TO THE LETTER, every single step right through to the end. Chances of success : marginal, but it's the only process they WILL respect and abide by.

4. A much less promising approach which I will detail in a Private Message to you.

That's about as much encouragement as I can offer, sorry to say.

- Max

 

[ollygarch]

Betfair are no different from other on line sites with draconian powers written into their T&Cs. But those can only be applied if they are applied reasonably. Otherwise there are routes available to challenge them. Unfortunately by using someone else's card I doubt you would win this one. If you can prove this person owed you money and can document that the deposit was their way of paying you back then you do at least have an argument to work with.

 

[cdl2002]

It's now two months since the withdrawal was requested why would it take as long as this?

 

[jasonuk]

It's now two months since the withdrawal was requested why would it take as long as this?

Noting that an internal escalation (before ADR) would be capped at two months, I am surprised they are taking this long as well. It is possible they are giving you the "talk to the hand" treatment at this point - knowing that you have few other viable alternatives.

In regards the third path above, it's a tough one because if they refuse to accept your complaint / internal escalation then it won't be reviewed by a higher authority. You'd also want that deadlock letter for any ADR case, even though they are likely to side with Betfair on such a dispute.

If they steadfast refuse to escalate, you can come from the other direction and people have suggested "email the CEO" before (who I believe is still Peter Jackson). You should at least get a real person at a senior level looking at it and giving you an answer... although if you do, brace yourself for the likely outcomes that you are either getting your deposit back, or you are getting nothing at all.

If you can prove this person owed you money and can document that the deposit was their way of paying you back then you do at least have an argument to work with.

That would apply if the third party had sent him money, and then deposited said money with his own card. It would still be open to scrutiny, and Betfair may come to the same decision - but onwards paths (such as ADR or court) may have had more leniency because it's Betfair's opinion rather than a statement of fact.

In this case, it's a straight violation - so there's no such angle to work with.

 

[cdl2002]

Evening All,

Finally a response please see below.... any thoughts?

 

[scott dickson]

It's an unfortunate outcome but one we probably expected since you used a third person's card.

Probably not what you wanted to hear though.

 

[cdl2002]

Indeed..... but I think this opens a potential claim elsewhere... they have effectively refunded all the initial deposits....

A friend in a similar situation had account closed and betfair accepted £20k of bets and then closed account / they never refunded the losing bets...

Surely can't have it both ways?

 

[johnnymcc1966]

So they are saying you opened multiple accounts or used a payment method in somebody elses's name are they? Did you ever do matched betting or arbing at any time?

 

[jasonuk]

No surprises really - especially as the clauses mentioned (11.1, 11.2.1 and 13.5.2) were all highlighted as possible candidates in the discussion seven weeks ago.

Indeed..... but I think this opens a potential claim elsewhere... they have effectively refunded all the initial deposits....

A friend in a similar situation had account closed and betfair accepted £20k of bets and then closed account / they never refunded the losing bets...

Surely can't have it both ways?

Each instance will be on a case by case basis, and the full range of options will be available to Betfair (or any other operator) depending on those specific circumstances - whether that be paying the full balance, paying a subset of the balance, returning deposits or confiscating everything.

Given the amount of payment fraud in recent years (particularly around self-exclusion), operators have had to be extremely careful about how they handle such complaints - done in a way that'll stand up in court, but without giving an open goal to fraudsters.

So in this case, they would be trading off the terms and conditions against CDD/AML regulations - and in this case they decided the safest option would be to return the deposits.

They do close the letter mentioning you can take it to ADR. As we mentioned last month, ADR isn't binding on Betfair for a dispute of that size, and while it would feed into any future legal action (beyond the scope of this forum) - I would anticipate your chance of success is slim to none.

So they are saying you opened multiple accounts or used a payment method in somebody elses's name are they? Did you ever do matched betting or arbing at any time?

The opening post summed it up pretty succinctly, they deposited using a third party card. Pretty much game over after that point.

 

[scott dickson]

A friend in a similar situation had account closed and betfair accepted £20k of bets and then closed account / they never refunded the losing bets...

As Jason has already mentioned it would be case by case. so you could think well I got deposits back and they never so there must be more to your case.

In reality though it's clearly stated in the T+Cs so I'm sure any regulating body that would look at you're case would tend to agree with the casino.
( Just my opinion though. )

I don't suppose there's any chance that this is the same friend whose card you used to deposit on your account? If so then you should consider yourself lucky that your getting the deposits back.

 

[cdl2002]

No to avoid any confusion this is a totally seperate subject! Nothing linked or connected in anyway...

Reality was I knew this was coming so not surprised or shocked in anyway.... just seems to be that if the deposit used a 3rd party card and lost then betfair wins and makes no comment and does not refund and likewise use a 3rd party card deposit and win they refund deposit and confiscate losses....

Surely you would expect one standard... maybe it's the frustration I don't know just seems always favours one angle in different situations

Genuinely guys every bit of advice and view points I have taken onboard since the beginning and appreciate the time you have all taken to respond...

 

[scott dickson]

I'm not sure how it would work if the roles were reversed I would like to think if you asked them they might close the account and refund deposits but I am probably wrong about that.

But the decision to close your account and refund deposits probably wasn't an easy one for betfair for them to do this they are basically saying that if you did take this further and maybe end up taking them to court then they are 100% sure they would win this case. If they thought they would lose I think you might of had a different outcome.

 

[jasonuk]

just seems to be that if the deposit used a 3rd party card and lost then betfair wins and makes no comment and does not refund and likewise use a 3rd party card deposit and win they refund deposit and confiscate losses....

Yup, it is intentionally brutal because it causes headaches for the operator as well - particularly around responsible gambling, self-exclusion and AML. They incur unnecessary costs by doing the investigation, and in some cases neither party will get the money (in which case it is forfeit to charity).

Genuinely guys every bit of advice and view points I have taken onboard since the beginning and appreciate the time you have all taken to respond...

No worries, sorry it wasn't a better outcome for you.

I'm not sure how it would work if the roles were reversed I would like to think if you asked them they might close the account and refund deposits but I am probably wrong about that.

This is pretty much how the self-exclusion fraud worked, because it only functions correctly if all transactions can be reversed. Dishonest players are predictably unwilling to comply with such requests, which introduces a freeroll against the casino.

The fraudsters cottoned on to this, and would start mentioning the magical words for accounts that lost, while withdrawing from accounts that won. Annoyingly, that causes a problem for the genuine cases because they now lose out because of the fraudsters.

But the decision to close your account and refund deposits probably wasn't an easy one for betfair for them to do this they are basically saying that if you did take this further and maybe end up taking them to court then they are 100% sure they would win this case. If they thought they would lose I think you might of had a different outcome.

Also the cost of ADR is borne by Betfair, as would their share of any court case - so paying off something that might be a borderline case (because the funds haven't been lost) could be seen as a better business decision than fighting it.

Also, wouldn't be the first wacky rulings we've seen from the courts in recent years... best for them to leave that untested!