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Question Reporting Microgaming?

R

RedPhase

Full Member
CM Veteran (5yr+)
Joined
Apr 20, 2019
Location
Copenhagen
I get it...its a business, addiction factors in, rng and rtp is a thing etc.

However, given the recent complaints concerning Immortal Romance, a team of addicts, myself included, decided to see what all the fuzz was about, so we decided to bank up and play 25k spins in 7 days on both the funny money version and the big boy pants real live version.

The results were horrendous and shocking to be honest.

Methodology:
Two simultaneous sessions in seperate browsers and on seperate logins.

Split screen view
Both new accounts. - no bonus

Lowest amount stakes

Screenshot big earnings
Record the entire session


So this took roughly 9h a day on average because of browser crashes, and what not weird serverside issues and the total player count tally concurrently playing went from 32k players early on to 9.4k in the same time slots.

Rtp? Less than 40% on both free and paid play.

I'm not going to be the judge on whether or not 25k spins x2 would make for sufficient data, but it's something to go by...


And dear Microgaming...none of us are imbeciles or unreasonably greedy, but when you spin for 1k turns to activate a bonus round...its devastatingly demoralising to get .01x your stakes back. And it happened several times.

Also, wild desire leaves a lot to desire, for us we desired it not to occur because it was an absurd waste of time...

You are literally taking a piss at your customers with these numbers and it shows reflected in the immense drop-off of concurrent active users.

A damn shame and so we would like to ask you guys on here...should we report this statistical anomaly?
 
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Lifetime fave game until flash/download stopped and several HTML5 horror shows appeared then I abandoned ship VERY quickly.

Today's version is simply NOT the same game as when released, bit like Bonanza :p

Greed sets in, regulating bodies show they're clueless, providers take advantage, players get fucked sideways. The End.
 
It is absolutely without doubt "different" nowadays, and anyone saying otherwise either doesn't play it or just can't bring themselves to believe anyone in the industry could be deceptive.
I've said in another thread recently that (like @Jono777) it was my favourite game for years, but nowadays I can barely stomach 10 spins on it because it is just DEAD.

BONG one scatter
Dead spin
BONG one scatter
BONG one scatter
Dead spin
Dead spin

...you get the idea.
Good luck reporting MGS or anyone else. Your report will fall on deaf ears.
 
I will focus on adressing ears with hearing capabilities intact then :) and also add to it, that we are currently negotiating for an interview with a former employee of a leading game supplier where the relation has gone sour and the individual is contemplating "spilling his guts" on the industry, potentially affirming many conspiracies out there.
 
It would be interesting to know which Casino(s) you were playing at.
Some have the (original) highest RTP of 97%, some are running the 94% version, a few are at 92%, and I believe there's even a 90% version too, although I haven't seen it anywhere
 
brianmon said:
It would be interesting to know which Casino(s) you were playing at.
Some have the (original) highest RTP of 97%, some are running the 94% version, a few are at 92%, and I believe there's even a 90% version too, although I haven't seen it anywhere
Click to expand...
Bwin/leovegas/mariacasino/vd
100k spins total,25k each.

200k spins total when adding the mirrored free play spins (funny money)
 
RedPhase said:
I will focus on adressing ears with hearing capabilities intact then :) and also add to it, that we are currently negotiating for an interview with a former employee of a leading game supplier where the relation has gone sour and the individual is contemplating "spilling his guts" on the industry, potentially affirming many conspiracies out there.
Click to expand...

Really hope this pans out, I'll abandon my "TV Time" that night and read the lot.

Trouble is at this point, usually the brown envelopes or horse heads start appearing.
 
Jono777 said:
Really hope this pans out, I'll abandon my "TV Time" that night and read the lot.

Trouble is at this point, usually the brown envelopes or horse heads start appearing.
Click to expand...
We do too. Albeit we have the outmost respect for this individual and his hesitance to do so, given the litigious threats that could ensue, but we are working on a plan to negate it while also ensuring a potent content that exceeds hearsay.

Edit:

It will likely be a podcast where we introduce ourselves and hopefully learn a bit and catch a glimpse of behind the scenes.
 
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Well I suppose at least the demo version wasn't jacked up in comparison. I had a thought microgaming might be swedish but according to wiki:
Microgaming is a privately held gambling software company based in the Isle of Man :eek2:
There are strange, lurid tales about the manx :p Why not report it, be interesting just to see the response, how the regulator can be sure the games are the rtp they say they are.
 
mack341 said:
Well I suppose at least the demo version wasn't jacked up in comparison. I had a thought microgaming might be swedish but according to wiki:
Microgaming is a privately held gambling software company based in the Isle of Man :eek2:
There are strange, lurid tales about the manx :p Why not report it, be interesting just to see the response, how the regulator can be sure the games are the rtp they say they are.
Click to expand...
I concur. The demo did show up on the fasttrack early on, presumably to spur on players, but there is no hard evidence of that. I WILL however pursue this, my name is already tarnished and I've been banned ever since I critiqued book of oz lock n spin for foul play (they never did correct the code btw)
 
This used to be one of the great games along with TS2 which I would play for hours back in the day when 32red were a very decent casino. Then when it switched from Viper to browser it was never the same. I dont think they had to mess with the mechanics of the game other than dropping the RTP that was sufficient to kill this game.

Plus the graphics / sounds of both IR and TS 2 are by now a sorry shadow of its former glory. Last time I played IR on a crypto last year it was dull to say the least. Didnt hang around long and only did a few 100 spins. And to think they were times I would see my play counter on the old viper client go past well 2k in spins in a session - even more sometimes. And win or loose loved the game.

The upside I suppose of all the changes is my total deposits must be less than 1k this year - whereas back in the day I would / could 10x that amount in the same time frame. And almost all my play this year at 3dice. MG were one time top of the league and these days who even notices when they release a new game!
 
Interesting. I'm also baffled to discover that several variants exists pertaining to rtp. That I wasnt aware of but 40 percent is still abysmal compared to 90.
 
Nothing more satisfying, especially as a low roller, having a 3rd reel turn wild, begging the symbols to line up and then seeing that 4th drop of blood come down and Sarah and Amber landing on the other reel.

Together with an awesome sound track, this game was IMO "Simply the Best, Better than all the rest!"

Why when these developers are on to something magnificent, popular and successful do they continue to flush it down the toilet?
 
RedPhase said:
Bwin/leovegas/mariacasino/vd
100k spins total,25k each.

200k spins total when adding the mirrored free play spins (funny money)
Click to expand...
Bwin uses the 97% (96.86%) I don't pay at any of those others so I can't comment on which version they use.
Videoslots use 94% and all the Skill-on-net sites use 92%.

I still always check the RTP before I play anything these days, at any casino. Just in case they've switched to a lower RTP version since I last played there
 
*** UPDATE ***

It looks like we've got the ok for the podcast interview!!

If anyone has any questions pertaining to the behind the scene shenanigans, then kindly post them here.

Goal of the interview is to sort through the myths, seperate rumors from facts and hopefully try to understand the reasoning behind the many processes that take place in that world.
 
justdoit said:
any one won max win in Microgaming like they advertising MAX WIN £500.000 MAX WIN £325.000 ?
Click to expand...

Not even close - my biggest win on Microgaming slots is (albeit respectable) around 4000x my 90p bet on Game of Thrones; a full screen of Stark symbols in free spins.
Also I've only ever seen full Wild Desire/Wild Storm on 30p/60p bets (not me though) unless anyone else can show me something different.
 
Valhalla said:
Not even close - my biggest win on Microgaming slots is (albeit respectable) around 4000x my 90p bet on Game of Thrones; a full screen of Stark symbols in free spins.
Also I've only ever seen full Wild Desire/Wild Storm on 30p/60p bets (not me though) unless anyone else can show me something different.
Click to expand...
is some old games I like on microgaming but I just dont play much, when i see all this max win they advertise and no one win is something wrong
 
mack341 said:
Well I suppose at least the demo version wasn't jacked up in comparison. I had a thought microgaming might be swedish but according to wiki:
Microgaming is a privately held gambling software company based in the Isle of Man :eek2:
There are strange, lurid tales about the manx :p Why not report it, be interesting just to see the response, how the regulator can be sure the games are the rtp they say they are.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure Demo versions are regulated sort of... in the UK the have to play the same as the real thing - i.e no tweaked RTP or programmed separately to give a false impression of the game. OP location says Copenhagen so would imagine the EU would have something similar in place regardless of the individual licenses granted by each country....

Isle of Man eh??? remember pre UKGC when that was pretty much the gold standard for gaming licenses???
 
lord flashheart said:
Pretty sure Demo versions are regulated sort of... in the UK the have to play the same as the real thing - i.e no tweaked RTP or programmed separately to give a false impression of the game.
Click to expand...
Yes most certainly used to be the case and I am guessing very likely to be the same now. I am sure one of the reps on here can also confirm.

Even back in the early 2000's when I worked at Ladbrokes in Gibraltar, the free play versions operated on the same gaming servers as the real play games and used the same RNG and the RTP subsequently was the same between both.
 
A response from the" Isle of man" will be no doubt be on route spouting pure and utter shite..
 
Despite my better judgement, I had another quick game on Immortal Romance just now over on Grosvenor.
I've had an account on that casino for approx 7 years, and going by the pay table I've yet to get free spins on IR. I appreciate that that has probably reset at some point so perhaps I did somewhere along the line, but I don't remember it, and it certainly wasn't recent if so.

Played about 100 spins, 2 scatter a few times, 1 scatter 50 times probably (bong bong f*cking BONG), biggest win was 6x.
The game is complete toss. It used to be good, but somewhere in recent times it has been rebuilt to be a money making scam and nothing more. And yes I know 100 spins is not remotely close to a test sample, but given my last win on the game was maybe 5 years ago, and I've dabbled here and there across countless casinos, I'm sure that number of spins played is orders of magntude bigger... I've never once left the game so much as one penny up.

I'm watching videos of people playing it on free play mode and even they can't win when its nothing ?

What a garbage game Immortal Romance is now. What a total tragedy.
 
To give Microgaming a bit of credit, they have taken multiple stabs at trying to fix the HTML5 client - the first version was painfully bad and the game was unplayable. It's never reached the level of polish the flash version had - but it has got better.

Regarding the bonus, have to remember it had a fairly modest value compared to a lot of modern bonuses - I want to say 35-40x (roughly every 150 spins). I used to play it quite a bit back in the day and I can remember the run of low-paying bonuses as well as some decent ones too - so that itself hasn't changed.

Saying that, be very careful that you're playing the original 96.8% version - not the 2-3 lower RTP versions and not the mega moolah version at a horrendous 88+5%

Regarding the main thread, I guess we'll have to see the data... providers have made mistakes before (in both directions) so it's possible they've screwed something up in the migration from 97% to multi-model. I wouldn't expect to necessarily see spot-on RTP after 25k spins, but -57% seems insanely off - whether that's a genuine fault, a mistake in testing methodology, or something else, I guess we'll have to see.

justdoit said:
any one won max win in Microgaming like they advertising MAX WIN £500.000 MAX WIN £325.000 ?
Click to expand...
Microgaming and Netent both liked to advertise the maximum win the game could offer in any available configuration - so 12000x at £30 stake would be £360,000. I guess they were taking a nod from Vegas where they sometimes advertise progressive jackpots that aren't necessarily available at all stakes or configurations.

For example, gimped Thunderstruck II on William Hill quotes "win up to £24,000" which is 8000x at £3.
 
RedPhase said:
*** UPDATE ***

It looks like we've got the ok for the podcast interview!!

If anyone has any questions pertaining to the behind the scene shenanigans, then kindly post them here.

Goal of the interview is to sort through the myths, seperate rumors from facts and hopefully try to understand the reasoning behind the many processes that take place in that world.
Click to expand...
My questions to MG:

- Is it true that the RTP decreases as the bet amount increases? You can be winning like crazy with 0.90p stake, but after increasing your bet, you start to lose like never before

- Does Microgaming offer casinos any panels to change the frequency in which bonuses/fs are obtained? (seems like a stupid question, but trust me I saw enough weird moments regarding the behavior of their slots, and too many people complaining on a same day)

- "Error 212" / "Your session has time out" Many of us have seen these error screens while playing MG slots. They usually appear during a bonus round. Actually, it seems that these errors occur right before a big win. Tampering or just conspiracy nonsense?

- Why when you're on a hot streak you start winning on every MG slot and when you're on a losing streak you start losing on every MG slot, no matter which one you choose ?
Aren't they supposed to be random and independent of each other?
Are the wins and losses of all MG slots somehow connected?

- Can Microgaming determine how much money you can win based on your deposit or balance?

- Why in hell did MG ruined the perfect mathematical model of Thunderstruck 2 and Immortal Romance? It is evident that they no longer behave as they did back in the days. The old mathematical model was not profitable to MG?

- What's the point of hiding the RTP in a Text File? It is the first thing that should be informed to the player. Why MG hides it?
 
Any long time players know for a fact MG has changed the returns on all their slots. None of them play anywhere close to what they used to. 3 and 4 reel wild desires are unheard of now. Big bonuses rounds, impossible. Jurassic park has changed a tonne too same with ts2.

Really shameful behavior and its really disappointing because those were some amazing slots. I guess 96% rtp is unacceptable now and they put slots in the high 80's it seems.
 
jasonuk said:
I wouldn't expect to necessarily see spot-on RTP after 25k spins, but -57% seems insanely off - whether that's a genuine fault, a mistake in testing methodology, or something else, I guess we'll have to see.
Click to expand...

I saw an interesting chart on the UKGC website the other day regarding RTP. The lowest amount they mention for testing purposes is 50,000 spins.

I don't know if the chart is common knowledge on here but there are tolerances which go down as the number of spins goes up. They also say that one test in twenty outside the range is acceptable. More than that and the game might be faulty.
The problem is, you can't apply it to all games as the example they give is for a game with a standard deviation of 5.6. More volatile games have a higher tolerance. I have no idea what a 5.6 game is but you'd assume it's a standard number for them to chose as an example.
 

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Schind said:
I saw an interesting chart on the UKGC website the other day regarding RTP. The lowest amount they mention for testing purposes is 50,000 spins.
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The screenshot comes from
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, which appears to be a high-level guide on monitoring RTPs in a live environment. So this is ensuring that a game in production continues to abide by the stated TRTP and variance, rather than what was monitored during the testing phase.

Unfortunately the next section would explain this, if it was actually complete... (yellow highlight mine)

Capture.PNG


The start of that section talks about the trade-off, a small number of spins will be meaningless, too few could mean excessive monitoring and false positives and too many will mean an error - whether positive or negative - can go undetected for months (or "an unreasonably long time" as the UKGC put it).

Ideally, regulators should be pushing for this information to be made public, based on a flat bet (to reduce skew from less common higher bets). Some casinos do offer this for their own customers, but there will be an element of here be dragons as you need a meaningful sample size - and a lot of less popular games won't meet that threshold.
 
Sorry for the absence, my daughter moved back in with a broken heart ... and a labrador puppy big as a house. Been a few tumultuous days but I'm picking up from where we left.

Im working on a solution to upload the audiofile, it is massive and I need to take in consideration some people are still paying for bandwidth.
 
Immortal Romance II is being promoted at some casinos already for its upcoming launch. Max win of 25,000X, remixed soundtracks, and enhanced features.

Stormcraft makes some decent slots but pretty sure this will be let down by low RTPs.
 

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I wonder where that guy went that used to test 100 features per slot using some type of software. It was cool to see and id love to see it done on microgaming slots. Someone needs to do a study on them because there is something very clearly wrong with them.

When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.
 
BillyGoldblum said:
I wonder where that guy went that used to test 100 features per slot using some type of software. It was cool to see and id love to see it done on microgaming slots. Someone needs to do a study on them because there is something very clearly wrong with them.

When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.
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I've been gambling a lot at Microgaming slots lately as they are the sole provider of the only regulated online casino in my city (Rosario, Argentina). And I've been noticing some worrying patterns.

Most MG slots generally pay very little in base spins and bonuses. The most you can hope for is 50x (if you're lucky). And lots of dead spins.

However after making several deposits on consecutive days (and losing enough money on their slots), out of nowhere it's like they change your game session and put you in one where the RTP is ridiculously high.

You start to earn a lot, many well-paid bonuses and good prizes in base spins (lots of 5OAK).

Until you reach a balance that doubles or triples your initial deposit. Only then the slots go back to cold mode and stops paying.

What I am describing here has happened to me more than once...

I contacted the community manager of said casino and obviously his answer was the same as always: "MG slots are random. There is no way for us to manipulate their outcome based on deposits and previous spins. They are regulated by ecogra and blah blah blah"

I know that the mind often sees patterns where there are none. But it's a curious case.

Facebook and Instagram page of said casino are full of messages from people complaining about MG slots. Saying that it is impossible to get good bonuses/free spins. That they no longer pay as they used to, and that the deposits do not last long enough as it used to be.

Obviously the casino deletes the messages very fast. But I managed to take screenshots of several of them (at least 15-20 people complaining about the same thing on a single week.) (Also, remember that the number of users of this casino is quite low, since only people who were born in Rosario can bet. So 15-20 ppl isn't a low number at all)

Idk, in my opinion there is something strange going on that we can't see. But it's my word against a respected and "regulated" company. And my evidence ain't even hard.

If the problem comes from the casino or from the provider (microgaming) I've literally no idea
 
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BillyGoldblum said:
When i was streaming I had numerous 500x + hits on pragmatic, some on playngo and pushgaming but never hit anything on MG slots in many years of playing them just as much as the other providers. Last time I hit on MG was prob 3+ years ago and I was playing them daily. It almost became a chase tbh because I was shocked that years went by of playing them daily with nothing above 300x.
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I suspect a big part of this is that our collective perception of variance has warped significantly in the past 10 years - particularly in the era of streamers pushing "big wins" through bonus buys and 24/7 play.

When released, Immortal Romance was a spicy proposition, it could throw 200x wins out of nowhere, and Wild Desire could pay 12150x for five wild reels. The thing is, putting that 12000x win aside, it's not that spicy by modern standards - not only are those monster wins suitably rare (I remember a handful of screenshots here on CM over the years), but the wins start thinning rapidly beyond 200x - most of the power is in that 25-250x range.

For example :
  • Five Reels of Sarah+Wild, pays 32 ways of 16.6x, 31 of which are doubled = 1050x (plus other wins)
  • Four Reels + Sarah pays 516x (16 ways, 15 doubled)
  • Three + 2 Sarahs pays 250x (8 ways, 7 doubled)
  • Five Scatters pays 200x and a regular bonus
  • A wild desire (thankfully they didn't call it a bloody shitstorm after TS2) with four wild reels pays 1350x for Sarah, down to 270x for Nines and Tens (so potentially 1500x-2000x with a premium)
  • For the bonuses - not only is that value on the low side by modern standards, but to get the decent hits you generally need a similar setup anyway, added wilds to turn a bad win into a big win are pretty rare.
If Immortal Romance was putting 10-30% of its RTP into those monster pays, then yes you'd be seeing them... but it never has. As someone did with Avalon 2 back in the day, at least for the base game you can process the reel strips and get a feel for the variance. I reckon pretty quickly you'd appreciate it's the players that have changed, rather than the game.

brianmon said:
Still waiting
Click to expand...
I reckon we'll be waiting for a long time... ? I'm open to hearing what they have to say, but they have to say something first for us to be able to investigate and/or form an opinion!
 
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FWIW. Someone (won't name them, an affiliate) posted a 5 reel wild desire as recent as yesterday on YT.

Normal I don't but could not resist commenting as no way that was real money play, they used to share decent members videos but their latest few video uploads have ironically ALL being max win cap videos :rolleyes:

Not even Dunover is THAT spawny :p
 
Jono777 said:
Why when these developers are on to something magnificent, popular and successful do they continue to flush it down the toilet?
Click to expand...

Shave some RTP the suckers (ummm players) wont know.
Lower the RTP and churn in more cash for operator and game provider. MGS RTP set in stone, I think not!
 


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