32 red reverse withdrawal

[dave1888]

I won £600 at 32 red the other day and when I checked to ensure they have adhered to ukgc rules in reverse withdrawals, I see that it's still reversible. @Mark_32Red can you rectify this asap please, as I said though it might just be the download casino that was overlooked? Just to clarify please remove reverse withdrawal from 32 red download casino.

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[dave1888]

They've flushed the withdrawal now but have said they'll remove reverse withdrawal as soon as UKGC tell them to do so.

 

[Borgie]

I thought the ukgc had told them ?

 

[bamberfishcake]

Open up for flood gates for problem gamblers to reverse withdrawals then claim they wernt looked after.

No expert but risky business by 32red i think.

 

[nikantw]

IIRC (I only speed-read the news the first day) it was a simple request to not tempt players to reverse during the crisis. This can be covered with auto-flushing the withdrawal shortly after the request.

Not the same as asking the reverse option to be removed permanently.

 

[Mr Wild]

As I have mention earlier the ones that remove it lose about 30% of their profits. So not something they would not do lightly.

 

[pinnit2014]

The majority have removed it as far as i can see.

Could just give them an option then: remove it and lose 30% or we'll remove your licence and you'll lose 100% of UK rev.

 

[brianleeporter]

I thought everyone had to remove it though?

unless there’s a specific date it needs to be done by so this way people do it at the last minute.

 

[wobble33]

Just logged into my ladbrokes sports betting and withdrawl is still pending off yesterday? I too thought that the reverse rule was already in force?

I never reverse but its getting a bit of a joke that the rules are broken already.

 

[paul7388]

I am taking a guess that the removing of reversal is only a guideline and not the law.

If it was law then i would imagine the biggest sites would have complied by now.

But the fact all the main bookies sites like Ladbrokes , Coral WIlliam Hill , 32RED are all still allowing reversals would make me believe it is not compulsory.

 

[Slottery]

As I have mention earlier the ones that remove it lose about 30% of their profits. So not something they would not do lightly.

Just to be curious, how this amount is calculated?

 

[shadow123]

Mecca removed it a while ago, Grosvenor still have it which is a bit strange.
Casinos seem to be hanging on to it for dear life,perhaps they are hoping the virus will piss off soon and
the UKGC will not push the matter.They know that if they do remove it now, there would be no chance of re introducing it later.

 

[Kroffe]

Guess those who removed the reversal will go out of business pretty soon then.
No way could they lose 30% of their profits and still stay in business.

 

[Matti]

Guess those who removed the reversal will go out of business pretty soon then.
No way could they lose 30% of their profits and still stay in business.

I think you are mixing up profits and revenue. Revenue for a casino is NGR(=Wins-Bets-bonuses). Profit is whats left when everything is paid.

 

[shadow123]

It could be the last straw for some UK casinos,always hated reversals but they may be all that keeping some
places afloat.Pretty sure we will get a lot more rtp reductions as a result of banning them.

 

[colinsunderland]

IIRC (I only speed-read the news the first day) it was a simple request to not tempt players to reverse during the crisis. This can be covered with auto-flushing the withdrawal shortly after the request.

Not the same as asking the reverse option to be removed permanently.

It wasn't a simple request or guideline, its implemented into social responsibility code 3.4.1, and the wording is clear its something they have to do, not if they feel like it, there are enough 'musts' in the document to show the new measures aren't optional. Shows which operators are scummy in my opinion, its been over 3 weeks since they were instructed to do so. Coral, for example, only introduced the reverse option a few months ago so shouldn't be that hard to remove it. Others who have had it since they started, probably harder, but over 3 weeks is taking the piss.

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f) Prevent reverse withdrawal options for customers until further notice.

 

[Mark_32Red (retired acct)]

Hi All,

The development work required to remove the reverse withdrawal option was prioritised and if testing goes well it will be released tomorrow (Monday 8th June). The UKGC have been informed of this date.

Regards,
Mark

 

[colinsunderland]

With respect, I fail to see how any casino couldn't remove it within a couple of hours, let alone 3 weeks.
Go to the template for that page, remove the code for reverse. Even if you can't remove the button immediately because of formatting errors or something, the text on it could be changed from 'reverse' to 'not available'. Even if in the system it still shows as reversible, it wouldn't be possible for a customer to do so.
For casinos who have the lock option, its even easier, set it to auto lock any withdrawals when they are made.
Any casino who genuinely can't remove an option like this, even with a temporary fix, within a week, really need a new dev team!

 

[Kroffe]

I think you are mixing up profits and revenue. Revenue for a casino is NGR(=Wins-Bets-bonuses). Profit is whats left when everything is paid.

Thank god its only the uk market being affected then.
If 30% of a casinos profits come from the reversal option being available there, removing it from all markets would probably be instant doom for a casino.

 

[pinnit2014]

Thank god its only the uk market being affected then.
If 30% of a casinos profits come from the reversal option being available there, removing it from all markets would probably be instant doom for a casino.

Bit of a dodgy business model as well if your cash forecasts are predicated upon a reserving surely; especially given the love of RG atm that will see many casinos wanting/needing (or so they say ;-) ) problem gamblers off their books for fear of fines etc (running with a presumption that a lot of folk who reverse fall into that category, which I don’t know tbh)

Quicker they pay out the quicker they’ll get it back so the 30% may be still achievable just not by ‘reversing’

 

[Slottery]

Wonder why some were stupid and implemented lock functions for withdrawals, pay big part of them automatically or almost instantly or have had only hour period when it can be reversed if 30% of casinos profits on average coming from reversed withdrawals.

That's why asked how it's calculated as haven't able to make that number with any math.

 

[pinnit2014]

Go outside and put your finger in the air

The wind will tell you.

 

[Mr Wild]

Thank god its only the uk market being affected then.
If 30% of a casinos profits come from the reversal option being available there, removing it from all markets would probably be instant doom for a casino.

You don’t seem to understand the issue. The problem is the transaction fees not the people will loose much less.

As you are Swedish I can give you an example of Trustly. Trustly take 3% +€0.5 for each withdrawal and deposit. With the removal of the reversal the amount of deposits and withdrawals will increase and the cost of the is about 30% give or take from the ebita.

 

[Mr Wild]

Wonder why some were stupid and implemented lock functions for withdrawals, pay big part of them automatically or almost instantly or have had only hour period when it can be reversed if 30% of casinos profits on average coming from reversed withdrawals.

That's why asked how it's calculated as haven't able to make that number with any math.

For a paynplay casino about 25% of their gross earnings goes to pay Trustly fees. A normal casino have about 8-9%. Do the math yourself.

 

[Slottery]

For a paynplay casino about 25% of their gross earnings goes to pay Trustly fees. A normal casino have about 8-9%. Do the math yourself.

I've been doing quite a lot of math but struggle to get 30% of profits from reversed withdrawals. PaynPlay casinos only exist for few markets (and still can't make 30% profits from reversed withdrawals when trying). I just would be really interested to see how ending up to 30% with any numbers taken from head to end up that conclusion which is used as fact several times.

Maybe we just have seen really different normal casinos numbers, that's why interested of theoretical example.

 

[Mr Wild]

I've been doing quite a lot of math but struggle to get 30% of profits from reversed withdrawals. PaynPlay casinos only exist for few markets (and still can't make 30% profits from reversed withdrawals when trying). I just would be really interested to see how ending up to 30% with any numbers taken from head to end up that conclusion which is used as fact several times.

Maybe we just have seen really different normal casinos numbers, that's why interested of theoretical example.

How much % in ebita of the gross do the casinos do which you have seen?

 

[Slottery]

How much % in ebita of the gross do the casinos do which you have seen?

I didn't ask you to disclose anything under NDA, just open that math with some imagination numbers. Based on your statement of 30%, it should affect in these casinos UK market where option for reverse is totally removed, i can say that it haven't happen for all.

Sorry to ask, but often when something is stated as fact, it could be disclosed where it's coming from or have somewhere to refer, especially when speakin about normal casinos which pretty much would mean same than industry average.

I don't doubt you can show it to be true somewhere but i can also say that it's not effecting all casinos UK ebita by 30% like it should now when reversals are removed.

 

[Mr Wild]

I didn't ask you to disclose anything under NDA, just open that math with some imagination numbers. Based on your statement of 30%, it should affect in these casinos UK market where option for reverse is totally removed, i can say that it haven't happen for all.

Sorry to ask, but often when something is stated as fact, it could be disclosed where it's coming from or have somewhere to refer, especially when speakin about normal casinos which pretty much would mean same than industry average.

I don't doubt you can show it to be true somewhere but i can also say that it's not effecting all casinos UK ebita by 30% like it should now when reversals are removed.

I think as an example LeoVegas ebita is around 10%. If the hold on the deposit compared to the gross goes down and deposit at same time increases transaction fees will go from around 9% to maybe 12% of gross. It’s only 3% but then ebita will be at 7% a 30% decrease.

 

[Slottery]

I think as an example LeoVegas ebita is around 10%. If the hold on the deposit compared to the gross goes down and deposit at same time increases transaction fees will go from around 9% to maybe 12% of gross. It’s only 3% but then ebita will be at 7% a 30% decrease.

Thank you. I think hold is often counted between ngr and deposits (how leovegas presenting it). We can see after next quarter probably some changes in UK market for casinos who removed withdrawal option with this math. Leo ebitDa Q1 was exact 10% (8.3% adjusted) and hold bit over 30%.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Trustly take 3% +€0.5 for each withdrawal and deposit

Bejesus thats high.

I wondered what prompted VS to get rid of the option.

Interesting stuff. I had to look up what EBITA meant. Bloomin acronyms are a barrier for understanding sometimes.

 

[nikantw]

Bejesus thats high.

I wondered what prompted VS to get rid of the option.

Interesting stuff. I had to look up what EBITA meant. Bloomin acronyms are a barrier for understanding sometimes.

I thought* it was about Madonna**




* I am kidding, I figured out the meaning in 1-2 sec
** B sounds like V in some parts of the world.

 

[Slottery]

Bejesus thats high.

I wondered what prompted VS to get rid of the option.

Interesting stuff. I had to look up what EBITA meant. Bloomin acronyms are a barrier for understanding sometimes.

When following changes to RTP:s, reverse withdrawal and other stuff, these publicly listed companies have their numbers and stories published every quartal, in these maybe some of the changes can be seen or at least these companies like any others like to add explanations which in their opinion had an effect to numbers. They shouldn't at least be telling things which are 100% bs as that's a really big nono in the name of law, you shouldn't lie to investors and getting busted have quite big penalties.

Here's LeoVegas (which was taken as a random example)quarterly reports and presentations:

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[bamberfishcake]

I thought* it was about Madonna**




* I am kidding, I figured out the meaning in 1-2 sec
** B sounds like V in some parts of the world.

Was thinking exactly the same. Thought id better play Captain Sensible for once

When following changes to RTP:s, reverse withdrawal and other stuff, these publicly listed companies have their numbers and stories published every quartal, in these maybe some of the changes can be seen or at least these companies like any others like to add explanations which in their opinion had an effect to numbers. They shouldn't at least be telling things which are 100% bs as that's a really big nono in the name of law, you shouldn't lie to investors and getting busted have quite big penalties.

Here's LeoVegas (which was taken as a random example)quarterly reports and presentations:

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Yes I am keen to look at these annual reports but am saving my annual report viewing time for a pre RTP reduction and post RTP reduction. I have not chosen a victim yet.

 

[Slottery]

Cool, there are some specific numbers like hold (which all don't publish, leo and aspire at least do, but aspire have always have lowest RTP:s, this reverse thingy should feel with them if they have extremely long pending periods like stated) and some other KPI:s... which should tell differences, at least later this year (not sure when most of companies made these changes but think at least some are quite fresh).

Digging these specific numbers unfortunately covers only publicly listed companies, many smaller ones maybe revenue and profits could be found, depends where they are located and what is public information in these countries.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Cool, there are some specific numbers like hold (which all don't publish, leo and aspire at least do, but aspire have always have lowest RTP:s, this reverse thingy should feel with them if they have extremely long pending periods like stated) and some other KPI:s... which should tell differences, at least later this year (not sure when most of companies made these changes but think at least some are quite fresh).

Digging these specific numbers unfortunately covers only publicly listed companies, many smaller ones maybe revenue and profits could be found, depends where they are located and what is public information in these countries.

Yes in the UK, as you probably know, we have companies house for groundwork on companies.

Does Malta have anything similar do you know?

 

[Slottery]

Yes in the UK, as you probably know, we have companies house for groundwork on companies.

Does Malta have anything similar do you know?

Don't really know about Malta to be honest. Quick Google search probably tells, but don't have anything in mind.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Some guy at a casino must have thought that putting the option for a reverse withdrawl would gain 'm back a bit more percentage and overall less money to pay out. Geniusses. Now it's getting banned. Good job.

If they torn with RTP really we might as well go back to landbased. Even with lower RTP i can still enjoy myself there pretty well and leave with real cash in my hands.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Some guy at a casino must have thought that putting the option for a reverse withdrawl would gain 'm back a bit more percentage and overall less money to pay out. Geniusses. Now it's getting banned. Good job.

If they torn with RTP really we might as well go back to landbased. Even with lower RTP i can still enjoy myself there pretty well and leave with real cash in my hands.

Not tried land based but was being offered free breakfast, free cash, free drinks etc etc by Grosvenor.

Last place i got that was at Mum and Dads.

Hopefully the pandemic's over before too many drop.

In reality, how long do you think before we run out of options to play at max RTP?

Do you think there will always be one or two somewhere for each provider or are we all doomed?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Here on the intenet everyone would yell and scream at you that landbased is the devil and internet gambling is the shit. Reality is is that i lose far greater online then i would lose at landbased. It depends on your gameplay and budget obviously but i can tell i'd lose standard 7 out of 10 times (perhaps 8 out of 10 times now) while playing online. The amount of times i lose in landbased is far less obviously. Know your game, have your budget and walk away when your ahead.

 

[shadow123]

We are doomed and UK online gaming is fucked,All we need now is the £2 limit to finish the job

 

[Bloatgoat]

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To be honest the amount of addicts are growing by the day. It's not because the casino's give away free money but because games are designed in such a way to lure you in more and more and more then you could ever afford. BTG is a good example of that, very volatile but ruining at the same time. It's why i despise online gaming more and more, dirty tricks of online casino's, the stalling of payments, documents, you name it.

I'm sticking with good casino's online as well; but to be honest i see games being changed, max bets being limited now, gamble features being removed, games that do not play as they 'used' to after an update, or change anything at all without even informing the player. And you only figure that out that it's changed after you bashed a pretty amount of money on that.

There's just too many casino's, one with more aggresive marketing then the other, sending emails right before christmass, tossing in bonusses to make people play even more then their budget allows them to. The amount of self exclusion's is growing proportionally. Anyone doubting this should take a good look around on the net with threads people ruining themself.

I am not saying landbased is any better; you could lose just as hard there too; just know your game, machine or slot or (table) game, and you might get ahead if your smart and disciplined. That's all i have to say about it. A online casino by now does'nt give you square or equal odds compared to landbased. Yes a few might call themself lucky for grabbing a big big big win, but the rest is just suckering cows who are bringing the money in in on steady basis for providers and casino's.

 

[samdog21]

All online casinos seem to be a lot less responsive theese days, especially on this fourm where is sebastian from risk, private message him 2 times nothing, last time he was here was April 22nd. Like I hope every thing is ok. But at least risk could say something, only active reps videoslots, l&l, none want to come here and get cut a new well you know. Lmfao.

 

[colinsunderland]

All online casinos seem to be a lot less responsive theese days, especially on this fourm where is sebastian from risk, private message him 2 times nothing, last time he was here was April 22nd. Like I hope every thing is ok. But at least risk could say something, only active reps videoslots, l&l, none want to come here and get cut a new well you know. Lmfao.

If they aren't responsive you need to report them, drop @LadyJelena a message or tag her and she will give them a nudge. I don't think those 2 are the ONLY active reps though, I mean Marks been posting in this thread!
I agree though, a lot of reps don't bother logging on now.
Obviously there could be reasons for that at the moment.

 

[Mr Wild]

Not tried land based but was being offered free breakfast, free cash, free drinks etc etc by Grosvenor.

Last place i got that was at Mum and Dads.

Hopefully the pandemic's over before too many drop.

In reality, how long do you think before we run out of options to play at max RTP?

Do you think there will always be one or two somewhere for each provider or are we all doomed?

There will for sure be many places in UK to play MAX RTP on as long as tax remain the same. Is just that they need to cut on other things. Less wages for staff or what ever to keep boat floating.

 

[Kroffe]

The boat in question.

 

[colinsunderland]

The boat in question.

View attachment 133723

Thats the one Videoslots use for the staff parties isn't it? Think they are weekly ones, every time they cut bonuses from players or steal from affiliates

 

[Kroffe]

Thats the one Videoslots use for the staff parties isn't it? Think they are weekly ones, every time they cut bonuses from players or steal from affiliates

No no.. You are talking about the Party-boat.
Im actually the Captain of the Party-boat.

and when i say that, i mean im locked away in the lil boat hanging on the side of the yacht.
Im not even allowed to play with the helicopter.

 

[samdog21]

Well I thought ojo took their reverse of. Put 40$ , won 500$ on mega ball, 5min later. Cash out, fucking reverse still there. So just take 24hrs time out, till money goes in, via etransfer.