Anyone Know Of A Strategy For Online Casinos?

[angelfire]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the boards though I've been playing for some months on online casinos.

I'm Dan, and I'm new to strategies really having just used the Martingale system on online roulette, which I've just discovered is a bad system, apparently very bad lol. I'm upto 1500 after a deposit of 40 playing 0.10 as a starting bet and doubling my money, takes me ages and I've lost my nerve and was wanting to find an alternate system.

I was just wondering if anyone knew of a good strategy/system if there is any? Is there a system which will help you win more than you lose?

I've just tried a system from WizardOfOdds.com on blackjack but I kept losing and excuse me if I sound like a newbie and really ignorant but I wasn't sure if there were any strategies to help you win rather than lose, so i thought I'd ask the community here to see if I can get any sound advice.

I took a websites bad advise and got a welcome bonus at Vegas Red and now I have to wager 2400 to be able to cash out so I'm just looking for a way to get there without blowing like I might on the Martingale system.

Thanks a lot for reading, and I apologise if this question has been asked a million times before, I'm new to the boards,

Dan

 

[aka23]

You mentioned you used a blackjack "system" that you saw on Wizard of Odds. Do you mean playing with optimal basic strategy? This is not a system to win over time, as the games have a built in house edge. Nevertheless, choosing a low house edge game and playing with optimal strategy is certainly a good way to minimize losses. If you claim a bonus and use optimal strategy, it may be enough to give you an edge, depending on the bonus terms.

 

[angelfire]

Hi aka23,

thanks for your reply, I appreciate that.

I really am new to strategies, having just used one over a period of time. What would you suggest as a low house edge game and optimal strategy? I really don't know much about this and if you have a link or anything I'd be interested to have a read.

The only thing is I'm looking for something relatively simple as I'm not too good at following complex strategies. The blackjack system I used was the 'best possible strategy' version, and I followed it ok.

All I'm looking to do is pay off my wagering requirements, I have 1500 so far and need to get to 2400 to pay it off, so obviously I know no system is full proof, but I just need something to help me along.

Any info is appreciated,

thanks,

Dan

 

[aka23]

You mentioned you were playing at Vegas Red. I believe Vegas Red increased their SUB wagering to 100x40 = 4000, rather than 2400. In any case, the lowest house edge (per wager) alternative is casino hold'em since wagering is tripled if you play BJ. I believe I was the first person to put up an optimal strategy calc for casino hold'em, which is on my site, along with a simplified set of strategy rules.

 

[Simmo!]

Hi Dan

Welcome to the forum. Just wanted to make sure you were au fait with the Vegas Red bonus terms re. Blackjack & Roulette. If you are, no problem, but if not then you need to be as you'll see:

Bets placed on all versions of Baccarat, all versions of Roulette, all versions of Sic Bo, all versions of Darts, Heads or Tails, all Video Poker games, Blackjack Switch, Blackjack Surrender, Pontoon, and Craps will not be counted toward wagering requirements. We reserve the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the play bonus is wagered on the above mentioned games. Bets placed on Blackjack, Blackjack Live, Progressive Blackjack and 21 Duel Blackjack contribute one third of their original value towards wagering requirements. In other words, the sum of the bets placed on this game is divided by three when calculating wagering. Bets, placed on any game, which abuse the betting system will not be counted towards the wagering requirements..

Cheers and GL

Simmo!

 

[Markus]

On way to win more money then you lose in the long run is to play with a bonus and bet aggressive especially if you play with a phantom bonus like the bonus from Vegas Red.

For example: You deposit 20 and receive 20 bonus, total balance is 40. Now you can bet at a Playtech casino like Vegas Red in the game Spin A Win 4 numbers 10 then your chance to win is 1:6. If you win your balance will be 234 then make smaller bets to get through the wagering requirement without too much risk. With a wagering requirement of 8x(deposit+bonus) and a game like Spin A Win with a house edge of 2,6% (on the numbers) you will lose on average 7.29 and before withdraw your balance will be reduced by the bonus amount of 20. So your total withdraw will be 234 - 7.29 - 20 = 206.71 which is more then 10 times your deposit (remember you had a chance to win of 1:6, i.e. your expected return here is 172%).

You might find this webpage from the Wizard Of Odds interesting:

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Most important parts:

If you're not afraid of losing, a good way to get out of the wagering requirement is to bet aggressively early, either going for a big win or go bust trying. If you make the big win then grind out required play more conservatively. However, that isn't what you were asking. The probability of turning $400 into $5,900 ($5,500 in winnings), assuming no house edge, is 400/5,900 = 6.78%. Of course there usually is a house edge but if you're smart you can keep it very low. So 6.78% would be an upper bound on the probability.

My advice is to try to achieve a very large win or go bust trying. The greater your winning goal is, up to a point, the greater your expected return. Personally I would try to get to about $2000. It is paradoxical but the only way to realize the value of the bonus is to lose everything. So you want a high probability of ruin. Hopefully that won't happen and you will have a very nice windfall.

 

[angelfire]

On way to win more money then you lose in the long run is to play with a bonus and bet aggressive especially if you play with a phantom bonus like the bonus from Vegas Red.

For example: You deposit 20 and receive 20 bonus, total balance is 40. Now you can bet at a Playtech casino like Vegas Red in the game Spin A Win 4 numbers 10 then your chance to win is 1:6. If you win your balance will be 234 then make smaller bets to get through the wagering requirement without too much risk. With a wagering requirement of 8x(deposit+bonus) and a game like Spin A Win with a house edge of 2,6% (on the numbers) you will lose on average 7.29 and before withdraw your balance will be reduced by the bonus amount of 20. So your total withdraw will be 234 - 7.29 - 20 = 206.71 which is more then 10 times your deposit (remember you had a chance to win of 1:6, i.e. your expected return here is 172%).

You might find this webpage from the Wizard Of Odds interesting:

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Most important parts:

Hi Markus,

thanks for the input, I've just tried betting aggressively with 1500 on roulette at Vegas Red, putting up 50 bets, I was down to around 200 at one point lol, very nerve racking but somehow I managed to get upto my previous balance, and win a hundred, so I'm at 1645 now. I was very lucky.

Basically, I'm playing on roulette and my plan was to get to 2000 then stop, as the Martingale system isn't great and it takes so long with starting bets of 0.10p. If I get to 2K I would need to win 6 times out of 30 playing a game which counted towards my wagering requirements, then I could cash out any winnings.

You suggest 'spin a wheel', could you tell me how to play this game, I'm not sure how it works.

I really appreciate the input, and anyone else with a strategy that I can use on a game which counts towards my wagering requirements would be really handy. I'm still getting to grips with this whole thing so I appreciate the advice.

 

[kmay87]

You've been playing roulette? As Simmo quoted, seems that's an excluded game....Best to contact support before you go any further, if that's the case.

 

[aka23]

You've been playing roulette? As Simmo quoted, seems that's an excluded game....Best to contact support before you go any further, if that's the case.

Yes, the terms say that they may "withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal" if roulette is played, so there is a potential for problems. In any case, you can make aggressive bets on any game -- not just roulette or Spin A Win.

 

[Markus]

As KMAY87 said, roulette is a excluded game! If you play roulette with a bonus at Vegas Red you risk that your winings will be voided! Furthermore it doesn't count to the wagering requirements so you still have to wager the full sum as at the beginning if you didn't played any other game yet. So don't play roulette while having a bonus at Playtech casino like Vegas Red. If you want to play roulette with a bonus play in a Microgaming casino. Microgaming casinos I recommend for that are 32Red Group (32 Red Casino, Dash Casino) and the Jackpot Factory Group (All Jackpots Casino, Wild Jack, First Web Casino, All Slots Casino).

thanks for the input, I've just tried betting aggressively with 1500 on roulette at Vegas Red, putting up 50 bets, I was down to around 200 at one point lol, very nerve racking but somehow I managed to get upto my previous balance, and win a hundred, so I'm at 1645 now. I was very lucky.

This wasn't what I mean with betting aggressive. You don't have a expected return > 100% if you make 50 bets while having a bankroll of 1500. As the Wizard Of Odds said "you want a high probability of ruin", basically this means you have to bet your complete bankroll. So instead of making big deposits like 1500 you should make smaller deposits (in exchange more often whenever you get a good bonus offer) and then make one single aggressive (= high risk and high profit) bet with your deposit+bonus. This is the only way to win more money then lose in online casinos in the long run.

Basically, I'm playing on roulette and my plan was to get to 2000 then stop, as the Martingale system isn't great and it takes so long with starting bets of 0.10p. If I get to 2K I would need to win 6 times out of 30 playing a game which counted towards my wagering requirements, then I could cash out any winnings.

Don't use the Martingale system, it don't work. Trust me you will lose more money then you win in the long run if you use the Martingale system.
This is what the Wizard Of Odds says about Martingale system and other betting systems:

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You suggest 'spin a wheel', could you tell me how to play this game, I'm not sure how it works.

Spin A Win is much like roulette but you have 24 numbers instead of 37. You can bet on these numbers just like on the numbers in roulette. The house edge is 2,6% on the numbers which is slightly smaller then the house edge of roullete (2,7%). There are also some other bets like betting on a color but you should not do that because the house edge is in most cases a little bit bigger then 2,6% so you should only bet on the numbers.
The big advantage of Spin A Win compared to Roulette is that this is a allowed game, so you don't have to fear that your winnings will be voided and it counts to the wagering requirement. The disadvantage is that you can only bet pre-set amounts like 10.00, 15.00, 20.00, 25.00, 50.00, ..., so you have to calculate your deposit amount before making a deposit if you want to bet your complete bankroll.

 

[kmay87]

It's a tough one to call. Bringing it to their attention might warrant removal of the bonus - but it's a sticky so wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. If they tried to remove all winnings generated too, you could argue that - provided all bets made were using cash and not the bonus - the bonus wasn't used and thus roulette wasn't an excluded game as the bonus hadn't been used.

Or just not saying anything at all is another option. But if they audit accounts before paying out, it's bound to appear.

As aka said, there are plenty of ways to bet aggressive on allowed games. Personally, I'd probably have gone with the 30x d+b with blackjack counting 1/3, attempting to double if not quadruple your balance before grinding the rest out at minimum stakes. Playing perfect strategy blackjack will result in a very small HE, and over a small WR the chances are even better.

Still, with any sticky bonus, you run the risk of busting out before you have even started. The Martingale system is NOT the way to do things. I used it once upon a time, and like you, thought it wasn't too bad. But before you know it, you're staking 100s with the potential to only win a fiver or so. As soon as you reach table limits, which really isn't that hard, that system will cripple you. Take it from me. Aka's site is great for comparing HE and also deciding on bonuses to take, I'd definitely give it a look as it was a big help to me when I was chasing bonuses.

I'd be interested in knowing if they pay once you meet the WR.

 

[angelfire]

Thanks guys, you've really helped me out here.

And I didn't know it was forbidden to play an unallowed game with the deposit and bonus.

I've just contacted customer support about it, and just said I've made a mistake what shall I do, and they've told me that I can still play on other games that allow the wagering requirements, and I can also make a withdrawl.

Phew, that was lucky, I thought I'd seriously messed up then! God, this is what its like being a complete newbie to online casions, always read the terms and conditions lol.

Right, as I'm allowed to wager from now on I have to switch to another game, and as spin a wheel seems to be advised, I'll switch to that, hoping I win back enough from my 1645. Here goes. I'll let you all know how I've done, and thanks again for your input, it has been really helpful, and I sure didn't know I was running the risk of not being able to withdraw at all!

The Martingale system is stupid I do realise and I was losing my nerve on it anyway, so glad to stop using it.

Would it be ok to play on even and odd numbers on spin a wheel? I'm not sure how to play it yet. It seems very crazy to place a bet on a number and hope it comes up, whereas going for even or odd numbers you stand a better chance of winning.

P.S. Yes, I certainly got it wrong about betting aggressively with roulette, I know realise that that only works for paying off your wagering requirements.

Thanks guys, you've helped a lot.

Dan

 

[Markus]

Would it be ok to play on even and odd numbers on spin a wheel? I'm not sure how to play it yet. It seems very crazy to place a bet on a number and hope it comes up, whereas going for even or odd numbers you stand a better chance of winning.

No, don't bet on even or odd this has a house edge of 5%, you will probably lose a lot of money if you met the wagering requirement on this way! But you can bet on multiple numbers. If I'm going to meet the wagering requirement I always bet on 22 or 23 of 24 numbers so I will win almost every spin a little bit and lose money very unfrequent this way I can met the wagering requirement quick and safe and it does not count as a "even bet" which some casinos don't like.

 

[kmay87]

Well I think a thumbs up is in order for the casino. Very few would probably have allowed that. What did they let you withdraw and what wager requirement have you got left?

As you stated, always read the ts and cs before playing. You'll find virtually all are likely to omit roulette, craps, blackjack, some forms of poker, and others, so check these before depositing. It wouldn't be good to deposit, be given a bonus only to find you had to meet some awful wagering on house-friendly games. Such as slots-only.

I've heard of, but never played this spin-a-win game. Suppose it comes down to your own choice. Best to check your balance before doing it though, it wouldn't be good to bust out now. Personally, I'd still choose blackjack. 3x more wagering, but a distinctly lower HE where you can choose between tiny or huge stakes and it doesn't take a lot to master basic strategy.

 

[kmay87]

No, don't bet on even or odd this has a house edge of 5%, you will probably lose a lot of money if you met the wagering requirement on this way! But you can bet on multiple numbers. If I'm going to meet the wagering requirement I always bet on 22 or 23 of 24 numbers so I will win almost every spin a little bit and lose money very unfrequent this way I can met the wagering requirement quick and safe and it does not count as a "even bet" which some casinos don't like.

Not really a safe game to play though with a sticky bonus is it You'd only have to lose a couple of spins and it would be pretty difficult to catch up and make anything worthwhile.

 

[Markus]

Not really a safe game to play though with a sticky bonus is it You'd only have to lose a couple of spins and it would be pretty difficult to catch up and make anything worthwhile.

Yes, if he meet the wagering requirement in this way he will in all probability lose some money but at least he will not get bust. Making risky bets wouldn't be with such a big bankroll wise either, at least not for me, maybe he have enough money and 1645 isn't very much for him. I would never deposit so much money. So my strategy would be here: To make the best of a bad job.
But of course he has to decide how to play.

 

[angelfire]

If I don't play the spin a wheel, then I could play Blackjack, I've got to grips with the best possible strategy on Wizard of Odds, though, as I previously said, I did lose more than I won.

Basically, I'm looking to obviously lose more than I win so I don't need a great strategy, just something that will give me an ok edge.

I haven't withdrawn from the Casino yet, as I haven't paid off my WR, but they said that I'm allowed to play on any games that allow WR, with the money that I've already won on roulette. I explained what I've done, and they said I could carry on playing, but as I said, I haven't withdrawn yet.

Just to clarify, if I'm using spin a wheel, the thing to do is be 22 to 23 of the numbers and win back a little, not losing often?

I haven't started playing yet, still thinking of alternate means of playing, so thanks for the input guys, it is appreciated.

P.S. I didn't deposit 1645, I deposited 40 and got a 40 bonus, I won the amount playing roulette and wanted to get to 2K so I could wager it all on the WR. Sorry, just to clarify.

Dan

 

[Markus]

P.S. I didn't deposit 1645, I deposited 40 and got a 40 bonus, I won the amount playing roulette and wanted to get to 2K so I could wager it all on the WR. Sorry, just to clarify.

That's great! Then you will only lose a few pound because 30x(40+40) isn't very much.
You can do this: Bet on 23 numbers 1 then you will need only 105 Spins and you will only lose on average 62.79. If you disable the animation you will only need a couple of minutes for that.

 

[kmay87]

Markus - Dan only deposited 40. Presuming (as I can't remember) that it was 100% match, so he's got an 80 balance. WR is 30x (d+b) so 2400. Again, this bit is guesswork as I don't know the payouts for spin-a-win. Correct me if I'm wrong. You bet on all bar one number, and that number comes up first spin. Unlikely, you might say, but I've seen it happen before on roulette. So on that principle, you are already x amount down, and need to make up at least that deficit because the bonus will be removed. Over a 2400 wager, I'm no stats man, but the number you don't bet on is likely to crop up a few times. Add to that, if the bonus terms require you to withdraw an amount higher than your deposit and bonus, this could cause some problems.

As I said, I've never played it, so perhaps you can explain - in European roulette, the payout is 36/1. Of course there's 37 numbers. So if I bet on 36 of them, as in your case, 23 out of 24, and win, I get 36 + 1 back. I've staked 36 to win a single pound. And I could lose. Is this how this game pays? If so, sounds a hell of a lot like the Martingale system once again.

Dan - are you saying you have a 1645 balance with the WR being based on the initial deposit? Or are they classing your balance as the bonus and the WR is based on that? Casino hold-em, as aka suggested, is a good bet if you have a big balance and only a small WR to make. There's a good opportunity to make that withdrawable if you, as terrible as this pun is, play your cards right


Edit - seems he beat me to it

 

[Markus]

Markus - Dan only deposited 40. Presuming (as I can't remember) that it was 100% match, so he's got an 80 balance. WR is 30x (d+b) so 2400. Again, this bit is guesswork as I don't know the payouts for spin-a-win. Correct me if I'm wrong. You bet on all bar one number, and that number comes up first spin. Unlikely, you might say, but I've seen it happen before on roulette. So on that principle, you are already x amount down, and need to make up at least that deficit because the bonus will be removed. Over a 2400 wager, I'm no stats man, but the number you don't bet on is likely to crop up a few times. Add to that, if the bonus terms require you to withdraw an amount higher than your deposit and bonus, this could cause some problems.

He don't bet his complete bankroll on that 23 numbers, but for example 23 (1 per number), so it doesn't hurt very much if the one number without the bet come every now and then. The house edge never chance, on average he will always lose the same, so for the house edge it doesn't matter on how many numbers he bet. But its much saver to bet 23 on 23 numbers instead on 1 because the variance is much smaller.

As I said, I've never played it, so perhaps you can explain - in European roulette, the payout is 36/1. Of course there's 37 numbers. So if I bet on 36 of them, as in your case, 23 out of 24, and win, I get 36 + 1 back. I've staked 36 to win a single pound. And I could lose. Is this how this game pays? If so, sounds a hell of a lot like the Martingale system once again.

One number pays 23.4X so if he bets 23 on 23 numbers he will win in 23 of 24 cases 0.40 and he will lose in 1 of 24 cases 23.

 

[angelfire]

That's great! Then you will only lose a few pound because 30x(40+40) isn't very much.
You can do this: Bet on 23 numbers 1 then you will need only 105 Spins and you will only lose on average 62.79. If you disable the animation you will only need a couple of minutes for that.

Hi Markus, and thanks for the input so far, its very interesting, and new to me, I thought I'd clarify what I'd done so there wasn't any confusion. The 30 x d + b is 2400 I have to make up, basically I need to wager.

Thanks for your clarification of how to play spin a wheel, at the moment it sounds like a good chance, and I'm just looking at how to play it at the moment.

Dan - are you saying you have a 1645 balance with the WR being based on the initial deposit? Or are they classing your balance as the bonus and the WR is based on that? Casino hold-em, as aka suggested, is a good bet if you have a big balance and only a small WR to make. There's a good opportunity to make that withdrawable if you, as terrible as this pun is, play your cards right


Edit - seems he beat me to it

Hi KMAY87, I'm sorry if I've been confusing in explaining what I've done. Basically, yes, I deposited 40 and then got a %100 bonus, making it 80. Then, I went onto play roulette and won 1645, and I've just contacted the customer support at the casino and asked if I can still play games to pay off my d + b and they said I was allowed to, so my winnings so far won't be confiscated on withdrawl. Hence, I need to wager 2400 but I'm only upto 1645 which I can lose. I was wanting to get to 2K so I only had to win 10 times while losing the lot. Does that make things easier to understand? I'm sorry, I really am new to the terms and what means what.

Could you do me a big favour and expand on how to play Casino Hold 'em if you think it would be a good idea to play it? I've only played roulette and blackjack, and would be interested in trying out other games, I just need something easyish to understand.

As it stands, I'm considering just trying my luck on spin a wheel, and if I lose, well, then I lose, but atleast I had a good go and the odds sound quite good from what Markus was saying, if I bet 1 on each number.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your time in dealing with an idiot like me lol.

Dan

 

[kmay87]

He don't bet his complete bankroll on that 23 numbers, but for example 23 (1 per number), so it doesn't hurt very much if the one number without the bet come every now and then. The house edge never chance, on average he will always lose the same, so for the house edge it doesn't matter on how many numbers he bet. But its much saver to bet 23 on 23 numbers instead on 1 because the variance is much smaller.


One number pays 23.4X so if he bets 23 on 23 numbers he will win in 23 of 24 cases 0.40 and he will lose in 1 of 24 cases 23.

Ok, I get the idea thanks. Still, to me anyway, staking 23 with the potential of only winning .40p sounds crazy. Will be interesting to hear what some of the other members think of it. I like the idea, it's a good way to get around the WR, just not sure it's a good strategy to play with a sticky bonus.

Dan - thanks for clarifying that. Sounds like you're on to a winner there. Obviously, all players differ, and if you decide on that spin-a-win, then fair enough. I hope it turns out ok for you. However, if it was me, I'd do 50 hands of blackjack. WR would be 7200, so a maximum of 144 hands. Not all that many really. Play the strategy perfect, and you really should have at least 1000 left over, potentially far, far more. Of course, if you get a bad run, you could quite easily lose 20 hands in a row, so it comes down to you eventually.

If you haven't played hold-em before, I wouldn't say now is the time to start. Not at these stakes anyway. Again, if it was me, I'd be tempted to throw down 20 bets (with only the 2400 to wager) but it's a game you really need to understand inside out before you play.

If you're interested, check out aka's website Beating Bonuses. He's got a whole section devoted to the game.

Let us know how you get on

 

[Markus]

Ok, I get the idea thanks. Still, to me anyway, staking 23 with the potential of only winning .40p sounds crazy. Will be interesting to hear what some of the other members think of it. I like the idea, it's a good way to get around the WR, just not sure it's a good strategy to play with a sticky bonus.

I have done this strategy a lot (at least 50 times) and it always worked very well for me. In a Playtech casino I believe this is the safest and quickest methode to get around the WR. In my experience the worst thing what can happen him in this case is that he lose around 300 if he is very unlucky. But if he is very lucky he can also win up to 30.

However, if it was me, I'd do 50 hands of blackjack. WR would be 7200, so a maximum of 144 hands.

IMHO 50 per hand is way too risky. I would only bet 5 per hand but this would take a very long time therefore I would only do it with a blackjack bot. But I'm not sure if Vegas Red allows this.

 

[kmay87]

As I said earlier, everyone's different when it comes to gambling. You see players on here doing 100+ spins on slot machines. And usually winning 10s of s. My income means I could afford it, but there's no way in the world I ever would. Likewise here, you're happy to risk 23 to win .40p, whereas I wouldn't, partly because I don't like the small possibility of losing everything, and partly because, for me, 40p off a wager of 23 is shocking. If this was me on slots, anything less than 2x my bet I'd be annoyed at.

But, if it works for you, fair enough, let's hope it continues. My reasons for suggesting Dan tries something else stems from my first times on these forums. I came on, and basically believed anything anyone told me on this forum. Not that I'm claiming to be a Casinomeister stalwart or anything, hence why I'm surprised no-one else has commented on this.

Have to say though, AWFUL suggestion with the bot. Last thing you'd want to do is advocate the use of those. Quick way of getting banned from casinos those are. And all they do is play optimal strategy blackjack, as you and me can do manually, but quicker. Sure, you could play 5 a hand. Hell, 1 a hand for that matter. But with a balance of 1600+, a fiver a go will take a long time when the opportunity to play higher is there. Chances of busting out are probably around the 25% range, not sure without checking it out, so once again, it depends on the individual.

 

[angelfire]

I have done this strategy a lot (at least 50 times) and it always worked very well for me. In a Playtech casino I believe this is the safest and quickest methode to get around the WR. In my experience the worst thing what can happen him in this case is that he lose around 300 if he is very unlucky. But if he is very lucky he can also win up to 30.

IMHO 50 per hand is way too risky. I would only bet 5 per hand but this would take a very long time therefore I would only do it with a blackjack bot. But I'm not sure if Vegas Red allows this.

What attracts me to using spin a wheel is that all I want to do is break even, even lose some, but not go bust in doing so. What I'm bearing in mind is that every time I bet 23 is that it is counting towards my WR, so 4 spins and I've paid off roughly 1 WR, which is what I was looking for. I'm not interested in winning, so winning 0.40p is ok, as all I'm trying to achieve is pay my WR off.

As I said earlier, everyone's different when it comes to gambling. You see players on here doing 100+ spins on slot machines. And usually winning 10s of s. My income means I could afford it, but there's no way in the world I ever would. Likewise here, you're happy to risk 23 to win .40p, whereas I wouldn't, partly because I don't like the small possibility of losing everything, and partly because, for me, 40p off a wager of 23 is shocking. If this was me on slots, anything less than 2x my bet I'd be annoyed at.

But, if it works for you, fair enough, let's hope it continues. My reasons for suggesting Dan tries something else stems from my first times on these forums. I came on, and basically believed anything anyone told me on this forum. Not that I'm claiming to be a Casinomeister stalwart or anything, hence why I'm surprised no-one else has commented on this.

At this point I'm open to suggestions, and I hope I wouldn't believe everything I hear, I'm just trying to look at the numbers and see if they add up and what I can lose/win roughly with what I've got.

If anyone wants to chime in it would be interesting to hear opinions, I'm new to this so just looking around for ideas. For instance, I didn't know the Martingale system was a bad strategy until after playing with free money at 1 a starting bet, 12 runs was not rare, and I lost lol.

I'd like to try Blackjack, although when playing with the best possible strategy I was losing a lot, which makes me worry I'd get a few bad runs with 50 hands and I'd lose a lot. That's all I'm thinking about right now, but then again, I haven't tried it a lot, only on free play.

Have to say though, AWFUL suggestion with the bot. Last thing you'd want to do is advocate the use of those. Quick way of getting banned from casinos those are. And all they do is play optimal strategy blackjack, as you and me can do manually, but quicker. Sure, you could play 5 a hand. Hell, 1 a hand for that matter. But with a balance of 1600+, a fiver a go will take a long time when the opportunity to play higher is there. Chances of busting out are probably around the 25% range, not sure without checking it out, so once again, it depends on the individual.

I haven't heard about 'bots' but is this cheating? I'm not interested in cheating, just playing with a sytem, rather than just playing for luck, but then again, I don't know much about online casinos and playing.

Thanks again guys, its interesting to hear your opinions,

Dan

 

[kmay87]

Yup, bots are cheating, and will get you in a lot of trouble if caught. My advice - keep away. Besides, they are pointless. The only benefit is speed. Apart from that, they don't do anything better than a human can.

Were you using the right strategy? Bear in mind, there are different strategies for 4-deck, 8-deck blackjack, RTG, Microgaming, Playtech, single-hand, blackjack switch, surrender, European, and on and on and on. If you used the wrong one, there's your problem. Some tell you to hit on a 16 vs dealer 10, but not if you have three cards drawn. Others say stand on a soft 19 vs dealer 10, some say hit. Make sure you used the correct system.

I get that in your position, you don't care if you lose, so long as you have some. But when there's a pretty good chance of maybe turning that 1600 into 16000, you have to weigh up the options.

I'd say, hold off for a day or two. Let the weekend hit, then I'm sure plenty more members will suggest what they would do. No point rushing things.

 

[Markus]

I have wrote a simulation progam to compare the suggestion from KMAY87 (144 Blackjack hands 50) with my suggestion (105 spins 23). I have visualized it:

Expired Image

(X-axis is the balance after play, Y-axis is count of occurrence)
You can see here that Spin A Win is much safer. You will never go under 1300.

Here is the source code:

import java.util.*;

public class SpinAWin
{
	Random mrndRandom = new Random();
	
	public SpinAWin()
	{
		int i, j;
		int [] intEndBalances = new int[3000]; 
		for(i = 0; i < 3000; i++)
		{
			intEndBalances[i] = 0;
		}
		for(i = 0; i < 10000000; i++)
		{
			double dblBalance = 1645.0;
			for(j = 0; j < 105; j++)
			{
				int intNumber = mrndRandom.nextInt(24);
				if(intNumber == 0)
					dblBalance -= 23.0;
				else
					dblBalance -= 0.4;
			}
			if(dblBalance >= 1.0 && dblBalance < 3000.0)
				intEndBalances[(int) Math.floor(dblBalance)]++;
			if(dblBalance <= 0.0)
				intEndBalances[0]++;
		}
		int intLastValue = 0;
		for(i = 0; i < 3000; i++)
		{
			if(intEndBalances[i] == 0)
			{
				System.out.println("" + i + "," + intLastValue);
			}
			else
			{
				System.out.println("" + i + "," + intEndBalances[i]);
				intLastValue = intEndBalances[i];
			}
		}
	}
	
	public static void main(String [] args)
	{
		SpinAWin app = new SpinAWin();
	}
}

import java.util.*;

public class BlackJack
{
	Random mrndRandom = new Random();
	
	public BlackJack()
	{
		int i, j;
		int [] intEndBalances = new int[3000]; 
		for(i = 0; i < 3000; i++)
		{
			intEndBalances[i] = 0;
		}
		for(i = 0; i < 10000000; i++)
		{
			double dblBalance = 1645.0;
			for(j = 0; j < 144; j++)
			{
				int intNumber = mrndRandom.nextInt(200);
				if(intNumber <= 100)
					dblBalance -= 50.0;
				else
					dblBalance += 50.0;
			}
			if(dblBalance >= 1.0 && dblBalance < 3000.0)
				intEndBalances[(int) Math.floor(dblBalance)]++;
			if(dblBalance <= 0.0)
				intEndBalances[0]++;
		}
		int intLastValue = 0;
		for(i = 0; i < 3000; i++)
		{
			if(intEndBalances[i] == 0)
			{
				System.out.println("" + i + "," + intLastValue);
			}
			else
			{
				System.out.println("" + i + "," + intEndBalances[i]);
				intLastValue = intEndBalances[i];
			}
		}
	}
	
	public static void main(String [] args)
	{
		BlackJack app = new BlackJack();
	}
}

Sorry, that I don't answer now on your both posts, I'm terribly tired right now, I must go to bed now, I will do it tomorrow.

 

[SteveCut]

I would recommend that you go with Markus's Spin-a-wheel suggestion as you are not trying to win money but just need to reach the WR with minimal variance. The small return on your winning bets is irrelevant.

Angelfire, when you checked with CS that you'd be allowed to withdraw, did you make a copy of the chat transcript or was it by email?

 

[aka23]

I have done this strategy a lot (at least 50 times) and it always worked very well for me. In a Playtech casino I believe this is the safest and quickest methode to get around the WR. In my experience the worst thing what can happen him in this case is that he lose around 300 if he is very unlucky. But if he is very lucky he can also win up to 30.


IMHO 50 per hand is way too risky. I would only bet 5 per hand but this would take a very long time therefore I would only do it with a blackjack bot. But I'm not sure if Vegas Red allows this.

I've only skimmed through the recent posts, but as I understand it you were suggesting betting 23/24 outcomes on a roulette like game. This is a bad idea for a variety of reasons -- 1st it is higher house edge (per wager) than other alternatives, increasing your average loss; and 2nd this type of super low variance bet gives the casino an excuse to confiscate winnings. It's the reason why roulette is a banned game in the terms. Maybe your winnings haven't been confiscated yet with this strategy, but some casinos do confiscate winnings due to super low variance bets like this.

I expect that everyone agrees that betting on all outcomes of a roulette wheel has lower variance that a good-sized BJ bet. There is no need to simulate this. Nevertheless, skimming through you sim code, it seems as though you are simulating BJ as a +/-50 coin flip. This obviously is not valid. I have a sim link in my signature which correctly accounts for the doubles & splits. In any case, if you are completing the playthrough after a large win, I'd suggest choosing a reasonable bet size for your risk tolerance.

 

[angelfire]

Yup, bots are cheating, and will get you in a lot of trouble if caught. My advice - keep away. Besides, they are pointless. The only benefit is speed. Apart from that, they don't do anything better than a human can.

Were you using the right strategy? Bear in mind, there are different strategies for 4-deck, 8-deck blackjack, RTG, Microgaming, Playtech, single-hand, blackjack switch, surrender, European, and on and on and on. If you used the wrong one, there's your problem. Some tell you to hit on a 16 vs dealer 10, but not if you have three cards drawn. Others say stand on a soft 19 vs dealer 10, some say hit. Make sure you used the correct system.

I get that in your position, you don't care if you lose, so long as you have some. But when there's a pretty good chance of maybe turning that 1600 into 16000, you have to weigh up the options.

I'd say, hold off for a day or two. Let the weekend hit, then I'm sure plenty more members will suggest what they would do. No point rushing things.

That's good sound advise Kris, thanks, I appreciate that and I will certainly wait till I decide to do anything, and also it would be good to maybe get a few others chime in with what they think.

I could turn my 1600 into 16000? I never imagined that in my wildest dreams, and certainly if there is a possibility of doing so I'd be interested lol. Very interesting.

I don't honestly know about the Blackjack system I was using, to be honest I'm not sure I was using the right system for the right game (I used the strategy on Wizard of Odds page on playing Blackjack and played at Club Casino free play), I was playing straight Blackjack with the 'best possible strategy' after trying out the 'basic strategy' so you're very right, that might have been my problem.

Would you have a link to a strategy just for straight Blackjack (such as what is offered on most casinos like Vegas Red?). I'd be interested to try it out on free play on a casion and get to grips with it, at the moment don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting Blackjack having not really played it, and, as you said, I might have used the wrong strategy for Straight Blackjack.

I would recommend that you go with Markus's Spin-a-wheel suggestion as you are not trying to win money but just need to reach the WR with minimal variance. The small return on your winning bets is irrelevant.

Angelfire, when you checked with CS that you'd be allowed to withdraw, did you make a copy of the chat transcript or was it by email?

You know what, I didn't copy and paste the chat session I had with the customer support advisor. I should've done that. She said she checked my account and what I was doing etc and said there was no problem and I could still play games for my wagering requirements.

Thanks for the input guys, it is really appreciated, thanks for your time.

At the moment I'm just happy not be going back to the Martingale system lol, that was nerve racking and I got lucky to be honest and certainly see why its not a favoured system.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Jufo]

P.S. I didn't deposit 1645, I deposited 40 and got a 40 bonus, I won the amount playing roulette and wanted to get to 2K so I could wager it all on the WR. Sorry, just to clarify.
Dan

So you ran your balance to 1645 on Roulette which is excluded and banned game with a bonus. I think you still have a high risk of getting your winnings confiscated even if customer support told you are good to go. You will find this out only after you have completed the wagering requirement and requested a withdrawal. We can only hope they let if fly this time and it works out for you

I wouldn't recommend playing that spin a wheel either as very low risk bets can be considered as bonus abuse and you already have done those prohibited roulette spins. It would make your playing behaviour seem even more suspicious. I would recommend trying Casino Holdem and you will learn a new game while you're at it. Aka23 has a calculator on his site which shows the correct strategy for each situation.

As for blackjack, notice that the only version allowed is regural blackjack (you are not allowed to play switch, surrender or pontoon) and the correct strategy to use is the first table on this page:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

Wagering 2400 is actually a very small amount considering your balance. I don't expect your balance to change much if you keep your bet size reasonably low (something like 5-10 per hand).

 

[Jasminebed]

Contact CS again. This time make a copy of the transcript...I like it so much better at casino that email them to you.

Tell them you contacted CS before, but you did not realize you would not have a record. Say stuff like "I was told....did I understand it correctly?"

If they are going to let you keep your current winnings and you just have to play off WR, I would suggest switch to slots with a low bet...you may lose quite a bit, and it could take you some time, but I am sure you can end up well ahead of your initial deposit still, without any accusations of "bot" play, or "not playing a bonus in the spirit it was meant". And who knows, you might get lucky and hit a big one!!

Good luck, and contact CS again and screenshot the chat.

 

[Markus]

Have to say though, AWFUL suggestion with the bot. Last thing you'd want to do is advocate the use of those. Quick way of getting banned from casinos those are.

Just because Casino Club forbids bots that does not mean that every casino does not allow bots. I have read the Vegas Red T&C and I haven't found something that forbids bots so it should be no problem. But to be sure I would ask the casino support if this is really OK before I would use a bot.

Yup, bots are cheating, and will get you in a lot of trouble if caught.

Why do you consider bots as cheating? If someone would manipulate the random generator that would be cheating for me but bots can't eliminate the house edge they are only automatisation nothing more.

1st it is higher house edge (per wager) than other alternatives, increasing your average loss

What other alternatives do you mean? Only Blackjack and Casino Hold 'Em have a lower house edge. For Blackjack you need to play 3-times more so it's very time consuming if you make small bets and do not use a bot. And Casino Hold 'Em has in my opinion a too high variance.

2nd this type of super low variance bet gives the casino an excuse to confiscate winnings. It's the reason why roulette is a banned game in the terms. Maybe your winnings haven't been confiscated yet with this strategy, but some casinos do confiscate winnings due to super low variance bets like this.

I have played in the Europartners casino group (Vegas Red, Europa, Tropez, Craps, Bellini, Cameo, Del Rio) very often more then in any other Playtech casino group and I have always used this Spin-A-Win-Strategy and my winings were never confiscated by them. If they confiscate his winnings then because he has played Roulette. But just to be sure he can also play for example 12 numbers 0.50, thats also fine but he needs more spins then (but this is still much faster then the alternatives because you can make up to 1 spin per second if you disable the animation)

evertheless, skimming through you sim code, it seems as though you are simulating BJ as a +/-50 coin flip. This obviously is not valid.

Not exactly I have included the house edge of 0.5% so it's a 49.75:50.25 chance. If I wouldn't have simplified it this way the results for Blackjack would be even a litle bit worse because things like Split, Double, BJ pays 3 to 2 are even increasing the variance.

 

[aka23]

...

So you think an inexperienced player who had a big 1645 win and is already on thin ice by playing a restricted game, should complete wagering by simultaneously betting on winning & losing outcomes of a roulette-like game and/or using a bot? Casino Club isn't the only place that would have a problem with this.

What other alternatives do you mean? Only Blackjack and Casino Hold 'Em have a lower house edge. For Blackjack you need to play 3-times more so it's very time consuming if you make small bets and do not use a bot. And Casino Hold 'Em has in my opinion a too high variance.

Blackjack (even with the 3x wagering), Casino Hold'em, 3-card poker, and Stravaganza all have a lower average loss during wagering. This is not just a trivial difference in house edge (per wager). The average loss while completing wagering is >3x lower on Casino Hold'em than Spin A Win. Yes, I'm sure everything seems like too high a variance compared to betting on all outcomes of a roulette game, which is why the super low variance approach can lead to problems and why roulette like games are usually restricted in terms.

No exactly I have included the house edge of 0.5% so it's a 49.75:50.25 chance. If I wouldn't have simplified it this way the results for Blackjack would be even a litle bit worse because things like Split, Double, BJ pays 3 to 2 are even increasing the variance.

Fine, it's a 49.75:50.25 coin flip, rather than a 50:50 one. My point is it's not a valid simulation of a blackjack game since it does not account for tied hands, BJs, doubles, and splits, all of which may result in a payout that is not +/-50. The variance of your simulated game is the almost exactly the same as coin flip of +/- 50, rather than a BJ game.

 

[Markus]

So you think an inexperienced player who had a big 1645 win and is already on thin ice by playing a restricted game, should complete wagering by simultaneously betting on winning & losing outcomes of a roulette-like game and/or using a bot? Casino Club isn't the only place that would have a problem with this.

As I said he can also bet on less then 23 numbers for example on 12 numbers then it's like coin flipping. And if Spin A Win is too roulette-like then I suggest the game Dice Twister which is also very good game to meet the wagering requirement, because it has also a house edge of 2,6% and you can make multiple bets like in Spin-A-Win (Ok, here you can say Dice Twister is too Sic Bo like).

The average loss while completing wagering is >3x lower on Casino Hold'em than Spin A Win.

Casino Hold 'Em has a house edge of 2,16% so if he wager 2400 in this game he will lose on average 51.84. If he wager 2400 on Spin-A-Win with a house edge of 2,6% he will lose on average 62.40. So how can you say it's "3x lower"??

Fine, it's a 49.75:50.25 coin flip, rather than a 50:50 one. My point is it's not a valid simulation of a blackjack game since it does not account for tied hands, BJs, doubles, and splits, all of which may result in a payout that is not +/-50. The variance of your simulated game is the almost exactly the same as coin flip of +/- 50, rather than a BJ game.

Yes, and my point was that it doesn't make a big difference and when it does it would only show that Blackjack would be even a worse choice because it has a higher variance then 49.75:50.25 coin flip.

 

[aka23]

As I said he can also bet on less then 23 numbers for example on 12 numbers then it's like coin flipping. And if Spin A Win is too roulette-like then I suggest the game Dice Twister which is also very good game to meet the wagering requirement, because it has also a house edge of 2,6% and you can make multiple bets like in Spin-A-Win (Ok, here you can say Dice Twister is too Sic Bo like).

Casino Hold 'Em has a house edge of 2,16% so if he wager 2400 in this game he will lose on average 51.84. If he wager 2400 on Spin-A-Win with a house edge of 2,6% he will lose on average 62.40. So how can you say it's "3x lower"??

Note that throughout this thread I've said house edge "(per wager)". You listed house edge per initial bet, not house edge per wager. The two values differ on games with raises, like casino hold'em. The house edge per wager corresponds to the expected loss over a wagering requirement and is the more useful number for our purposes. For casino hold'em it is 0.82%, which is >3x lower than Spin-A-Win or Dice Twister's house edge.

Yes, and my point was that it doesn't make a big difference and when it does it would only show that Blackjack would be even a worse choice because it has a higher variance then 49.75:50.25 coin flip.

I expect that everyone viewing this thread already knew that betting on nearly all outcomes of a roulette game has a lower variance than blackjack. It also has a much lower variance than a coin flip and standard bets on all casino games. So the only useful measure would be comparing the degree of variance between the two methods, and your simulation doesn't do that since you didn't simulate blackjack... you simulated a coin flip like game.

 

[Markus]

Note that throughout this thread I've said house edge "(per wager)". You listed house edge per initial bet, not house edge per wager. The two values differ on games with raises, like casino hold'em. The house edge per wager corresponds to the expected loss over a wagering requirement and is the more useful number for our purposes. For casino hold'em it is 0.82%, which is >3x lower than Spin-A-Win or Dice Twister's house edge.

Because the player have to choose between fold or call after he paid the ante? Sorry, but I can't believe that this would reduce the loss to 0.82%. If this is true then the same thing can be applied to Red Dog, right?

I have written a Red Dog simulation program (because Casino Hold 'Em is too complex). This proves that you must be wrong:

import java.util.*;

public class RedDog
{
	int mintBalance = 0;
	int mintWagered = 0;
	Random mrndRandom = new Random();
	
	public static void main(String [] args)
	{
		RedDog app = new RedDog();
	}
	
	public RedDog()
	{
		final int TESTS = 10000;
		final int WR = 2400;
		double dblLosts = 0.0; 
		
		for(int i = 0; i < TESTS; i++)
		{
			mintWagered = 0;
			mintBalance = 0;
			while(mintWagered < WR)
			{
				playRedDog(1);
			}
			dblLosts -= mintBalance;
		}
		System.out.println("Average lost: " + (dblLosts / ((double)TESTS)));
		System.out.println("in %: " + (100.0 / (WR / (dblLosts / ((double)TESTS)))));
	}
	
	final int [] intDeck = { 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14 };
	public void playRedDog(int intBet)
	{
		int [] intCards = new int[3];
		do
		{
			intCards[0] = mrndRandom.nextInt(52);
			intCards[1] = mrndRandom.nextInt(52);
			intCards[2] = mrndRandom.nextInt(52);
		} while (intCards[0] == intCards[1] || intCards[1] == intCards[2] || intCards[0] == intCards[2]); // We want only one deck
		
		int intSpace = intDeck[intCards[0]] - intDeck[intCards[2]];
		if(intSpace >= 8 || intSpace <= -8)
		{
			intBet *= 2;
		}
		mintBalance -= intBet;
		mintWagered += intBet;
		if(intSpace == 1 || intSpace == -1)
		{
			mintBalance += intBet;
		}
		else if(intSpace == 0)
		{
			if(intDeck[intCards[0]] == intDeck[intCards[1]])
				mintBalance += intBet * 12;
			else
				mintBalance += intBet;
		}
		else if ((intDeck[intCards[0]] < intDeck[intCards[1]] && intDeck[intCards[1]] < intDeck[intCards[2]]) || (intDeck[intCards[0]] > intDeck[intCards[1]] && intDeck[intCards[1]] > intDeck[intCards[2]]))
		{
			if(intSpace >= 5 || intSpace <= -5)
			{
				mintBalance += intBet * 2;
			}
			if(intSpace == 4 || intSpace == -4)
			{
				mintBalance += intBet * 3;
			}
			if(intSpace == 3 || intSpace == -3)
			{
				mintBalance += intBet * 5;
			}
			if(intSpace == 2 || intSpace == -2)
			{
				mintBalance += intBet * 6;
			}
		}
	}
}

Output is:

Average lost: 62.9043
in %: 2.6210125

The house edge of Red Dog is 2.6%. The program plays until the WR is met and not until 2400 initial bets of 1 were made!

I expect that everyone viewing this thread already knew that betting on nearly all outcomes of a roulette game has a lower variance than blackjack.

I didn't expected this. KMAY87 seems to have thought that 23-spins in Spin-A-Win is more risky then 50 in hands in Blackjack, because of the low win of 0.40. By proving that the variance of Spin-A-Win is smaller then Coin-Flip I have proved that the variance of Spin-A-Win is smaller then Blackjack, because: Spin-A-Win variance < Coin-Flip variance < Blackjack variance

 

[aka23]

Because the player have to choose between fold or call after he paid the ante? Sorry, but I can't believe that this would reduce the loss to 0.82%. If this is true then the same thing can be applied to Red Dog, right?

I have written a Red Dog simulation program (because Casino Hold 'Em is too complex). This proves that you must be wrong:
...
The house edge of Red Dog is 2.6%. The program plays until the WR is met and not until 2400 initial bets of 1 were made!

I assume your simulation of Red Dog was 1 deck. The house edge per initial bet of Red Dog is 3.16% and the house edge per wager of Red Dog is 2.67%. So your 2.6% calculation is not too far off. However, I'm not sure why you think this proves that the house edge per wager of Casino Hold'em is not 0.82%.

I believe you previously referred to Wizard of Odds as a trustworthy source of information. I suggest reading about the quantity he calls "element of risk," then calculating what element of risk is for casino hold'em. You don't need a simulation to do this. It is a simple division of two numbers, both of which can be determined from Wizard's casino hold'em page (as well as mine).

I didn't expected this. KMAY87 seems to have thought that 23-spins in Spin-A-Win is more risky then 50 in hands in Blackjack, because of the low win of 0.40. By proving that the variance of Spin-A-Win is smaller then Coin-Flip I have proved that the variance of Spin-A-Win is smaller then Blackjack, because: Spin-A-Win variance < Coin-Flip variance < Blackjack variance

So you didn't expect simultaneously betting on 23/24 numbers on a roulette-like game to have a much lower variance than large bets on blackjack? KMAY87 said he'd choose to play it with 50 BJ bets, not that playing BJ was lower variance than betting on all outcomes of a roulette game.

 

[Markus]

I assume your simulation of Red Dog was 1 deck. The house edge per initial bet of Red Dog is 3.16% and the house edge per wager of Red Dog is 2.67%. So your 2.6% calculation is not too far off. However, I'm not sure why you think this proves that the house edge per wager of Casino Hold'em is not 0.82%.

I believe you previously referred to Wizard of Odds as a trustworthy source of information. I suggest reading about the quantity he calls "element of risk," then calculating what element of risk is for casino hold'em. You don't need a simulation to do this. It is a simple division of two numbers, both of which can be determined from Wizard's casino hold'em page (as well as mine).

Oops, you are right the house edge is 3.155% and not 2.6%, sorry!
I just don't understand why there is been a difference made between house edge and element of risk. IMHO nobody needs to care about the house edge the only interesting thing is the element of risk.

Well, it's good to know that the average loss of Casino Hold'em for meeting the wagering requirement is so low, I didn't know that till now. I will switch to Casino Hold'em as soon I have programmed a Casino Hold'em Bot.

So you didn't expect simultaneously betting on 23/24 numbers on a roulette-like game to have a much lower variance than large bets on blackjack?! KMAY87 said he'd choose to play it with 50 BJ bets, not that playing BJ was lower variance that betting on all outcomes of a roulette game.

I didn't expected that everyone (like KMAY87) viewing this thread already knew that. Whatever maybe I have misunderstand KMAY87.

 

[kmay87]

It's good to see that other players have made their thoughts known. At least that way Dan has a number of games to look at playing before he decides. In his case, I can understand that all he's interested in is meeting the WR and have as much left over as possible in these circumstances. How I saw it, with a balance that high, the chances of making it even bigger was quite possible using the 50 blackjack bets. But, as I said, that's what I would do. Bearing in mind I've been playing blackjack for 5+ years, that sort of wager wouldn't frighten me. There's a relatively high chance of busting, compared to spin-a-win, when that is very unlikely to happen.

It might look like a good option. But as I've said from the beginning, I really don't see how this is a good strategy on a sticky bonus. Normal practice is to get your balance as high as possible and then grind with small, low variance bets. Clearly, 23 a time on a sticky with a small balance isn't good. Especially when Dan has already broken the ts and cs. In that - it's surprising spin-a-win hasn't been added to the banned list. As others picked up on, it's just like all the others - roulette, craps etc.

Markus - I'm surprised by your comments on bots. To my knowledge, the only casinos that would 'allow' them are those which have their own built in autoplay. The Vegas Red terms DO forbid them -

3. The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs at anytime, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion.

Simple answer is just to never use one. If you do, and get caught, noone will help you. As to the advantage they give, plenty of threads on here will explain that. Nothing can eliminate the house edge, but they give the player an unfair advantage over the casino, and other players. I could argue for hours about how they really don't - the advantage is only speed, they only play according to a strategy card that anyone can access and utilise.

It's just like the law, really. You might not like it, but what other choice do you have.

In my opinion, slots play is good for showing the casino you are playing with 'the spirit of the bonus', if you like, but variance is greatly increased and there are far lower HE games available. Casino hold-em is a good choice, but for a player who is a novice to it? Doesn't really strike me as a game someone should play at high stakes without ever playing before. Although I suppose using a calculator to state every move may be a good option.

 

[Jufo]

How I saw it, with a balance that high, the chances of making it even bigger was quite possible using the 50 blackjack bets. But, as I said, that's what I would do. Bearing in mind I've been playing blackjack for 5+ years, that sort of wager wouldn't frighten me. There's a relatively high chance of busting, compared to spin-a-win, when that is very unlikely to happen.

I don't think that the OP should try to win any more than he already has. The reason is that the larger the withdrawal the more likely it is that the casino uses roulette play as a reason to not pay. Besides that standard BJ has quite crappy rules.

 

[Markus]

Markus - I'm surprised by your comments on bots. To my knowledge, the only casinos that would 'allow' them are those which have their own built in autoplay. The Vegas Red terms DO forbid them -

3. The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs at anytime, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion.

I don't understand how you can interpret this rule as "Bots are not allowed.". It just says that "abusive strategies" (whatever this means, but it surely doesn't mean "abusive programs") can cause an exclusion from further promotions (but not voiding winnings!).

This is from the Casino Club T&C, absolutely unmistakable:

The Company reserves the right to immediately close the account of any User who uses unauthorized programs such as bots, or any other illegal software that gives the User unlawful advantages, and to void all winnings from those accounts.

 

[kmay87]

I don't think that the OP should try to win any more than he already has. The reason is that the larger the withdrawal the more likely it is that the casino uses roulette play as a reason to not pay. Besides that standard BJ has quite crappy rules.

That's a fair point actually.


Markus - I've been in my job long enough to know how a company would view these terms. 'Interpretation' is what it all comes down to. In terms of abusive strategies, a bot would do consistent flat-betting that a casino could pick up on. Most casinos wouldn't call it fraud, as Casino Club would, but it could still be said to be against the spirit in which the bonus was given. It's just not worth using them. 18 months ago I was using bots, said that enough on here. It's not just Casino Club who have busted people for them, they just happen to be the only one I personally have spoken of.

Anyway, let's not take this off topic with all the talk of bots.

 

[Markus]

Anyway, let's not take this off topic with all the talk of bots.

I know, we should not hijack this thread but I like to post one last thing about this.

It seems you are right, I have just chatted with the customer support from Europartners casino group (to which Vegas Red belongs):

Perch: Hi, Markus.
Perch: This is Perch from Online Support! Welcome to Casino Del Rio. How are you doing today?
Perch: I am inviting you to try our progressive games, the jackpot prizes is getting higher.
Perch: Get a chance to win the jackpot prize.
Perch: To give you more CHANCES of winning, deposit now.I am happy to assist you.
Perch: Who knows if you are lucky today and win the jackpot prize!
Perch: I'm just around if you will need my help or assistance with your deposit.
Player18: I don't need assistance for a deposit I have a question
Player18: May I use a "Bot"-program which play automatically BlackJack or is this not allowed in this casino?
Perch: May I know how may I help you?
Perch: May I know what do you mean by that?
Player18: A Bot is a program which plays automatically for me BlackJack with optimal Strategy so I don't need to do it manually.
Player18: Some casinos forbid it I wonder if this is allowed here.
Perch: I am currently talking with our relevant department I will get back to you as soon as I have the exact information regarding your concern.
Player18: ok
Perch: Thank you for patiently waiting.
Perch: I apologize but the casino do not allow you to use that,.
Player18: ok

But if they forbid bots why the hell do they not add a clear rule to their T&C just like Casino Club?

 

[kmay87]

By the looks of that chat, they didn't even let you get a word in!

Casino Club had so many problems with bots they probably decided to reword their terms to make it clear. But virtually all casinos use the same ts and cs. Mainly because it's not worth paying their lawyers to redraft them.

And think about it. If that particular term was replaced with 'the use of 'bots' or other third-party software which may give the player an unfair advantage over the casino is prohibited' - possibly worded different - they can only use this term against players who use them.

BUT, if they use the phrase I quoted earlier on, it can be used against all sorts of scenarios, such as aggressive betting, flat-betting, etc etc etc. Basically, that term is much more open, and can mean a number of different things, so while it may seem unfair to the player, it works for the casino.

Standard terms and conditions really. They aren't designed to be 100% clear. The more interpretation a company can get out of their terms, the more protection they have against possible legal action.

 

[angelfire]

So you ran your balance to 1645 on Roulette which is excluded and banned game with a bonus. I think you still have a high risk of getting your winnings confiscated even if customer support told you are good to go. You will find this out only after you have completed the wagering requirement and requested a withdrawal. We can only hope they let if fly this time and it works out for you

I wouldn't recommend playing that spin a wheel either as very low risk bets can be considered as bonus abuse and you already have done those prohibited roulette spins. It would make your playing behaviour seem even more suspicious. I would recommend trying Casino Holdem and you will learn a new game while you're at it. Aka23 has a calculator on his site which shows the correct strategy for each situation.

As for blackjack, notice that the only version allowed is regural blackjack (you are not allowed to play switch, surrender or pontoon) and the correct strategy to use is the first table on this page:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

Wagering 2400 is actually a very small amount considering your balance. I don't expect your balance to change much if you keep your bet size reasonably low (something like 5-10 per hand).

I think you might be right, CS at Vegas Red might say its ok now to keep playing after playing roulette, but they might change their mind if I try and withdraw actual money, I have feeling they might confiscate my winnings after looking at my account, but oh well, if they do, my mistake and I've learnt from it, I won't do it again.

I have a question about the BJ strategy, so I should use the 'platech' strategy listed for Vegas Red? I remember a similar strategy before from Wizard Of Odds and I got cards which exceeded 17 and the strategy only told you what to do upto 17, maybe I was using the wrong table but this table on this link you gave also stops at 17. I was just wondering, because I had a few hands where I hit and then exceeded 17 and didn't know what to do. As I understood it from the basic strategy, maybe it was common sense to stand, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks again guys for the input, and no worries about going off track about the bots, its interesting, though I wouldn't use one myself even if I knew how to use one. I can't comment much on it though as I don't know much about it, I suppose if a casino allows you to use a bot then its ok, otherwise, a bad idea indeed.

Thanks again,

Dan

 

[kmay87]

To my knowledge, all strategies tell you to stand on a hard 17+. On a soft 17 it may be different. Even when the dealer has a 10, and your hand totals 17, 18, or 19, and you just know that they are going to turn over another 10, the strategy will always tell you to stand.

Sometimes, they will not turnover another 10, and will bust or stand, hence you win. Sometimes, they may have 17 also, so you draw.
Most of the time, it wouldn't make any difference if you hit or stand, as either way the dealer wins.
And rarely, if the strategy says hit, you would have won the hand if you stood, and when it says stand, you would have won, had you hit.

Irrespective of that, do what the strategy tells you. It plays to odds you cannot manually work out. Losing more hands than you win isn't all that uncommon. It depends how the deck is, and over a longer period of play, results should even up.

 

[Jufo]

I have a question about the BJ strategy, so I should use the 'platech' strategy listed for Vegas Red? I remember a similar strategy before from Wizard Of Odds and I got cards which exceeded 17 and the strategy only told you what to do upto 17, maybe I was using the wrong table but this table on this link you gave also stops at 17. I was just wondering, because I had a few hands where I hit and then exceeded 17 and didn't know what to do. As I understood it from the basic strategy, maybe it was common sense to stand, but I wasn't sure.

Yes you always stand with 17 or more because otherwise you will likely go over 21 by hitting. Notice the different strategy for soft 17 (A+6) and 18 (A+7) though, listed at the middle part of the strategy table.

 

[angelfire]

3. The casino reserves the right to review transaction records and logs at anytime, for any reason whatsoever. If, upon such review, it appears that player/s are participating in strategies that the casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive, the casino reserves the right to revoke the entitlement of such player to the promotion.

What would an 'abusive' strategy be? Is using any strategy an abuse? I just wondered. It just goes to show what bad advise I got from a website advocating the Martingale system, they first said that you should get a bonus to double your money, then they said you should use roulette, and they also said Vegas Red allowed 'advantage players'. What BS lol. I was new to online gaming and thought I'd give it a try, little thinking I had to research what he was saying to validate basic points he was making.

Thanks for the reply about BJ, I understand now, I think I'll try out the BJ strategy on Wizard of Odds, that is, if its not an 'abusive' strategy?

Thanks,

Dan

 

[kmay87]

A dodgy casino would probably frown upon using strategies, but most people playing blackjack trying to make money would use strategy, so there shouldn't be an issue. Normal 'abusive strategies' involve betting 50% or more of your balance on a single outcome, in the hope to get a big balance, and then grind the rest out at minimum stakes. For example - stake 80 balance on blackjack, win, then 160, win, then 320, win etc, and then play minimum 9p spins on slots. Quite a few casinos now forbid this.

I was like you. I paid 20 for one of those money-making schemes on Google. Did what it told me. Used the suggested casinos, depositing the suggested amount. Bit worried at first, but then it seemed to work. I really was making 200 an hour as it promised. Then it all went wrong. On the fifth, and final, casino recommended, I'd lost so many spins in a row that when I maxed out the table limit, the scheme had cost me around 10k. That's the problem when you are new to gambling. It seems like easy money, but the only money to be made from it is by those selling the system.

Glad that you've seen sense before it cost you anything.