Bodog Poker Security Warning

[pokeraddict]

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I know there are not many poker players here but I wanted to warn people here about this...

Obsessed with running off winning poker players, Bodog has now made it so that players no longer see the usernames of the other players at their cash games and tournaments. Players lost all of their notes, can no longer take notes, and Bodog removed the points for cash promotion without notice. Players are also complaining about dozens of bugs in the new update that make the new software unplayable.

For those of you that are not poker players, tracking software has caught hundreds if not thousands of cheats over the years. The most famous ones are the Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet insider cheating scandals. Without players catching them, they may have never been caught. Players have caught many bots and colluders this way. The poker forums are just about 100% against what Bodog did. Bodog is a ghost town tonight and according to PokerScout they are down over 80% in terms of traffic although Bodog blocked their ability to get exact counts a month or so ago because they thought traffic counts was somehow helping sharks. I guess Bodog does not care about what their players think or how players perceive the safety of their poker room now that they cannot be audited by a 3rd party. This calls into question the security of the entire poker network.

Maybe they think casual players will not care but they took the social aspect away from them which is among the important features in an online poker room. Casual players lost their virtual friends forever since they cannot be located anymore at the virtual tables. This whole thing just boggle the mind.

 

[Jasminebed]

Even if they switch back to having names, will players return? And turning off notes? Are a pen a pad beside your computer going to be considered cheating?

That's one of the most bone-headed moves I've heard of.

 

[jetset]

Thanks for that useful and interesting perspective, pokeraddict - you have to wonder what Bodog Poker management's objectives are.

Software uodates are supposed to improve aspects of a room, but that does not appear to have been the result here, and it will be interesting to see how Bodog responds to the players' criticisms of their latest moves.

The dip in traffic should send them a message - last week they were doing quite well, according to the Pokerscout numbers, so the decline you mention will certainly be noticeable.

 

[bpb]

While I recognize that many cheaters are caught by the players rather than the sites themselves, I also don't for a moment believe that game integrity is at the forefront of the minds of those vehemently opposing these changes.

They are complaining because these games are now going to be less profitable for the regs, who will no longer have HUD stats and be able to datamine. Games just got better for the casual player and fish.

Note that the changes have no impact on the sites ability to detect cheating and collusion. I don't know if Bodog is competent at catching cheaters. I do know that there have been 0 cases of cheating at Bodog caught by the players. This doesn't mean that there isn't cheating. This doesn't mean that the software changes will prevent players from catching cheating that would have been otherwise caught on non-anonymous tables.

But regs are pissed because they aren't going to make as much money. Period.

 

[pokeraddict]

While I recognize that many cheaters are caught by the players rather than the sites themselves, I also don't for a moment believe that game integrity is at the forefront of the minds of those vehemently opposing these changes.

I do not use a HUD or PT. The integrity of the games is the main concern here. The other concern is that this is not poker. Poker is a game of skill with tells and learning your opponents which is a different argument.

My point was really just to warn people what they were getting into if they deposited into Bodog. As Bodog is seeing right now, their site is empty tonight. Maybe that was their goal, if it was they should have just closed. The lack of testing on this software is pretty bad too. It took me three computers to even download it and have it launch. If you read the 2+2 threads you will see dozens that had the same problem. It is hard to imagine why downloading and installing the software was not done on hundreds of different machines first. That is just one of the dozens of bugs.

The software went years backwards, even if you ignore the anonymous tables. It is like they were intent on being in the headlines ASAP but did not test anything. Now the site is unplayable, even if you are not concerned about the potential security issues, due to all of the bugs.

 

[pokeraddict]

I do know that there have been 0 cases of cheating at Bodog caught by the players.

BTW, I am curious how you know this. Do you work for Bodog? You know for a fact that no player has ever emailed Bodog about suspicious play and been right? I would be shocked if that was true.

 

[jetset]

A lot of the coverage from Bodog on these changes emphasises that the goal is to make the site more recreational player-friendly, I see.

If the players are not flocking to the new offering could that be an indication of a preponderance of good players who are now staying away, or is it a case of time for the word to get out to recreational players that the new software gives them a better chance?

All of that to one side, pokeraddict (whom time has shown to be very knowledgeable in this area) points to several other deficiencies that Bodog will have o address.

 

[pokeraddict]

I realize people from outside the US may not know what Netflix is but that is what is being used to describe this situation by many US players. Netflix is a streaming and DVD company that ignored what their customers wanted and decided to try to tell their customers what they wanted by changing their business model. Their stock price lost $200/share in a couple of months and they had a mass exodus of customers. I realize now that I should have titled the post differently since so many will not be familiar with that situation. Mods feel free to change the title.

 

[vinylweatherman]

A lot of the coverage from Bodog on these changes emphasises that the goal is to make the site more recreational player-friendly, I see.

If the players are not flocking to the new offering could that be an indication of a preponderance of good players who are now staying away, or is it a case of time for the word to get out to recreational players that the new software gives them a better chance?

All of that to one side, pokeraddict (whom time has shown to be very knowledgeable in this area) points to several other deficiencies that Bodog will have o address.

I don't think anonymous tables have helped. This is something even the recreational players will worry about, even if it favours them. It smacks of a "secrecy lockdown" of every aspect of what is already a largely unregulated industry operated by secretive companies from obscure locations. They may worry that they are sitting opposite a table of killer sharks, but can't even see their screen names. A better move might have been to calculate a rating for each player, and display this alongside their screen names. This would have made it easy for recreational players to see whether they had joined a table that contained much more skilled players than they were. As regulars won, their ratings would increase.

The regulars already had the means to detect their prey, but making them wear the badge would warn the prey that they faced immediate predation.

Switching off datamining would not get noticed by recreational players, since they don't use it.

A "ghost town" would put off ALL players, even the recreational ones.

Skilled players would also worry that any chance of them independently verifying that no cheating was going on had been removed, leaving them 100% in the hands of the site operator to be honest, as well as proficient at detecting cheating. In the AP case, it was the room itself that did the cheating, so players were NOT protected by the room's own security staff, who were under orders to turn a blind eye to "house" cheats reported by players, or by more lowly monitoring staff.


Given that three major poker networks have been driven out of the US, Bodog may have thought they could make such drastic changes knowing that players would have to either put up with it, or quit playing poker altogether.

The 80% decline probably has more to do with the software being screwed up than players choosing to quit rather than accept the changes. However, if poker players are prepared to take a month or two off, they may be able to persuade Bodog to negotiate over the extent of these changes, and perhaps reverse the most unpopular ones.

 

[BodogBecky]

Thanks for that useful and interesting perspective, pokeraddict - you have to wonder what Bodog Poker management's objectives are.

Here is a message from the Bodog Network VP on the changes:

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[BodogBecky]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I know there are not many poker players here but I wanted to warn people here about this...

Obsessed with running off winning poker players, Bodog has now made it so that players no longer see the usernames of the other players at their cash games and tournaments. Players lost all of their notes, can no longer take notes, and Bodog removed the points for cash promotion without notice. Players are also complaining about dozens of bugs in the new update that make the new software unplayable.

For those of you that are not poker players, tracking software has caught hundreds if not thousands of cheats over the years. The most famous ones are the Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet insider cheating scandals. Without players catching them, they may have never been caught. Players have caught many bots and colluders this way. The poker forums are just about 100% against what Bodog did. Bodog is a ghost town tonight and according to PokerScout they are down over 80% in terms of traffic although Bodog blocked their ability to get exact counts a month or so ago because they thought traffic counts was somehow helping sharks. I guess Bodog does not care about what their players think or how players perceive the safety of their poker room now that they cannot be audited by a 3rd party. This calls into question the security of the entire poker network.

Maybe they think casual players will not care but they took the social aspect away from them which is among the important features in an online poker room. Casual players lost their virtual friends forever since they cannot be located anymore at the virtual tables. This whole thing just boggle the mind.

None of the bodog brand licensees would ever cheat anyone, ever. I say this because I am close with all the senior management and know exactly how things are run on the inside- with complete honesty and integrity. Anyway, I did want to share something from CS regarding your concern of bots and collusion, hopefully this will make you feel better about the update.

We can certainly understand why not being able to identify players by their screen names anymore would make other players nervous. Maintaining the integrity of the game and protecting our players has always been our number one priority. Our security policies haven’t changed and we will continue to flag any suspicious account activity and take action on these players. We are committed in our effort to rid our poker room of collusion and protecting the interest of honest players. We continue to evolve our security practices and employ tools that will create the most secure environment for our players. We also have and continue to enforce a strict policy that forbids Bodog employees from playing our tables. We will not risk our reputation or integrity on having employees play. If you observe anything in our poker room that makes you a little suspicious, we’d like to know about it. You would need to provide the table name, the seat and hand numbers you’d like us to look at when calling.

Thanks,
Becky

 

[vinylweatherman]

None of the bodog brand licensees would ever cheat anyone, ever. I say this because I am close with all the senior management and know exactly how things are run on the inside- with complete honesty and integrity. Anyway, I did want to share something from CS regarding your concern of bots and collusion, hopefully this will make you feel better about the update.

We can certainly understand why not being able to identify players by their screen names anymore would make other players nervous. Maintaining the integrity of the game and protecting our players has always been our number one priority. Our security policies haven’t changed and we will continue to flag any suspicious account activity and take action on these players. We are committed in our effort to rid our poker room of collusion and protecting the interest of honest players. We continue to evolve our security practices and employ tools that will create the most secure environment for our players. We also have and continue to enforce a strict policy that forbids Bodog employees from playing our tables. We will not risk our reputation or integrity on having employees play. If you observe anything in our poker room that makes you a little suspicious, we’d like to know about it. You would need to provide the table name, the seat and hand numbers you’d like us to look at when calling.

Thanks,
Becky

This is the worry. The update makes it almost impossible to notice anything suspicious, unless it is so blatant that it shows up in a single game. Suspicion is usually aroused when particular screen names seem to "always have luck on their side", or "always win when sat at the table with xxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyy".

You will either get fewer reports, or an inundation of innocent occurrances now been see as "suspicious" because players are EXPECTING cheaters to be taking advantage of the anonymity. A desire for anonymity in this industry is seen as a sign of wanting to hide something. Many operators hide behind "fronts" to preserve the anonymity of the REAL owners. Bodog is actually a rare exception to this rule, with Calvin Ayre thrusting himself into the glare of publicity whilst making sure he stays well out of reach of the US authorities. He is also adept at "spin", and could make a sow's ear look like a silk purse by giving an interview, making a press release, or having an article published on his news portal.

He is no doubt trying to "spin" the current changes so that players who consider them bad are made to feel guilty in only wanting them reversed so that they can again "cheat" by using all the specialist tools.

In the comments, a "fish" laments that the change has also disabled "Sharkscope", a tool some "fish" used in order to steer clear of those tables stuffed with predatory players. Now they have no idea whether they are sharing a pool with minnows, or with sharks about to eat them alive.

The "pro" players may simply adjust their tactics and STILL predate the "fish", but with anonymity. Alternative tools may well be developed that will still give them an edge on anonymous tables. Worse, a "hole" could be found in the software that allows the anonymity to be broken, and this could then be exploited by an "underground" tool. The AP scandal was so successful because it was a software exploit, rather than a tool, and was clearly not detected by the KGC during audits, nor by their own security, unless we believe EVERY employee there was "in on it".

Saying "can never happen" is dangerous, because if it DID happen, even if nothing to do with a Bodog employee, it could destroy the reputation of Bodog poker permanently.

 

[pokeraddict]

I had read that post from the Bodog VP. It loses all credibility when they link "like most predators" to an article talking about the alleged, but not backed up by any facts, $1 million extortion made by PokerScout that was laughed away by the industry. That is not the only thing about that website recently, but it is not the topic at hand...

Bodog has always wanted to be eccentric and be in the headlines. They got their way. Maybe they are right and will get the last laugh. I get the idea that they do not want to even want to have poker and it is a nuisance and this is their solution. Poker is a necessary evil for sportsbooks and this looks like the solution Bodog wants to take. It is their business and they have every right to try new things just as the poker community has the right to criticize them.

Other sportsbooks have bizarre rules about poker. One makes you wager your deposit 1x on sports before cashing it out. Poker does not count towards the WR. Another book forces players to make one sportsbook wager every x # of days to have access to the poker room. This is just an extension of those types of rules, but to the extreme that has most observers uneasy due to the potential for abuse.

I am not saying Bodog is not credible, there probably is not a stronger brand or company that accepts U.S. poker players. I do not think there is any malicious intent here. I just think the obsession over recreational players has gone too far and the poker that they are offering is not really poker and can be abused by cheats.

If I am wrong and Bodog becomes an industry poker leader and they control the cheats I will be happy to come right back here and say "I was wrong, Bodog had a great idea".

 

[rockycatt]

i think if a player wants to take notes on me like at the table via the client ability ok.

but for peeps / sharks that want to use stored poker traits of my play like he wont call a 7x bet on the river because a program says i prolly wont call or reraise then for useing that software , that has mixed reviews anyway at best i say no stop it

play on your own skill not a bought program use a pencil R C

PS and know i can see how wide spread it realy is

 

[pokeraddict]

It appears that Bodog's new software ignores casino self exclusions as well. The CS reply shows that the issue will not be resolved and tells the player not to click the icon if they do not want the casino games:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

This puts Bodog in conflict with being considered an accredited casino:

Must offer and enforce spending limits in addition to both temporary and permanent self exclusion options.

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/accredited-casinos/

 

[jetset]

I guess the player need not click on the top right hand corner button if he/she does not wish to indulge in Blackjack; the question is does having the game available only a click away constitute temptation to a problem gambler, or should a self exclusion facility also be available - perhaps to ensure that the BJ button is not available?

I get the impression from the Bodog CS response that the introduction of an exclusion facility could still happen, but perhaps the Bodog rep would clarify that for us?

 

[pokeraddict]

FWIW, every poker room that I know of will block their casino if you ask them except Bodog. This player was already self excluded, then had it reversed without requesting it. I guess I see that as being quite serious, especially since it cannot be resolved.

Also, if Bodog is all about protecting fish, how does embedding blackjack software into the poker client accomplish that? It obviously does not and the reason for putting it there is obvious, that is an entirely different discussion though.

 

[ksb11]

FWIW, every poker room that I know of will block their casino if you ask them except Bodog. This player was already self excluded, then had it reversed without requesting it. I guess I see that as being quite serious, especially since it cannot be resolved.

Also, if Bodog is all about protecting fish, how does embedding blackjack software into the poker client accomplish that? It obviously does not and the reason for putting it there is obvious, that is an entirely different discussion though.

Excellent point though.

 

[rockycatt]

with all due respect bodog is a sports bet ,poker room , casino , and they make there living from this how they promote there games is there business period as long as they remain in the accredited list

now people that cheat using poker software programs that are forbidden simply dont belong in the poker room
lets remember we play every were in the world by house rules .

play on your decisions R C


PS If you want poker software [helper ] please post your poker room and player name so i can look you up

i might want to pencil you in red ,orange , green , or find were you are playing at the moment all over the globe and show up like i play there as a reg

below is a example of what they dont want [against the rules ] and the real spiriy of the game



Find the Fish with FishScope
Date: 2009-04-24
Author: Jayme Lyttle


Many of us have all fallen into the habit of starting up an eight table sit and go session and registering for the first ones we come across in the lobby. Being a successful online poker player involves much more than just registering for random tables. We have to do some research on our opponents in order to maximize the expected value of our poker sessions. There are too many table selection programs available to not take advantage of every piece of information we can get our hands on.

This is especially true when it comes to heads-up sit and gos. Knowing if your opponent is a winning or losing player is extremely valuable. You would obviously like to play heads-up against a losing player instead of a winning one. The problem is that by the time you look up a player on SharkScope, for example, that particular heads-up match may already be filled. Thanks to a great table selection application, looking up a player's statistics is faster than ever.

FishScope is a player selection tool used on Full Tilt Poker that quickly displays statistics on a potential opponent. You simply move your mouse cursor into the tournament lobby window and FishScope will trigger a SharkScope search, displaying your opponents’ stats instantly. This happens in approximately one second, so you can quickly decide if you want to join the heads-up match. It's that easy. Here is a sneak preview of what you can expect:



Here is how you get started using FishScope:
1. Go to.fishscope.de/ and download version 2.3.9a
2. Unzip the folder to your preferred location
3. Input your SharkScope login credentials



and quite a number of theses programs were always outlawed to begin with simply because they go over the line of what house rules allow

 

[vinylweatherman]

with all due respect bodog is a sports bet ,poker room , casino , and they make there living from this how they promote there games is there business period as long as they remain in the accredited list

now people that cheat using poker software programs that are forbidden simply dont belong in the poker room
lets remember we play every were in the world by house rules .

play on your decisions R C


PS If you want poker software [helper ] please post your poker room and player name so i can look you up

i might want to pencil you in red ,orange , green , or find were you are playing at the moment all over the globe and show up like i play there as a reg

below is a example of what they dont want [against the rules ] and the real spiriy of the game



Find the Fish with FishScope
Date: 2009-04-24
Author: Jayme Lyttle


Many of us have all fallen into the habit of starting up an eight table sit and go session and registering for the first ones we come across in the lobby. Being a successful online poker player involves much more than just registering for random tables. We have to do some research on our opponents in order to maximize the expected value of our poker sessions. There are too many table selection programs available to not take advantage of every piece of information we can get our hands on.

This is especially true when it comes to heads-up sit and gos. Knowing if your opponent is a winning or losing player is extremely valuable. You would obviously like to play heads-up against a losing player instead of a winning one. The problem is that by the time you look up a player on SharkScope, for example, that particular heads-up match may already be filled. Thanks to a great table selection application, looking up a player's statistics is faster than ever.

FishScope is a player selection tool used on Full Tilt Poker that quickly displays statistics on a potential opponent. You simply move your mouse cursor into the tournament lobby window and FishScope will trigger a SharkScope search, displaying your opponents’ stats instantly. This happens in approximately one second, so you can quickly decide if you want to join the heads-up match. It's that easy. Here is a sneak preview of what you can expect:



Here is how you get started using FishScope:
1. Go to.fishscope.de/ and download version 2.3.9a
2. Unzip the folder to your preferred location
3. Input your SharkScope login credentials



and quite a number of theses programs were always outlawed to begin with simply because they go over the line of what house rules allow

So why not block them at the software level. The users of these aids will find they don't work, but players who don't use them will see a "normal" poker table.

The Bodog move has not simply rendered these cheating tools ineffective, but have rendered the LEGITIMATE skill aspect of the game inoperative. In real B & M poker, you don't have a laptop by your side feeding you stats, but you DO see your opponent's face, and body language, and you can use your own memory of playing this opponent in the past to give you an edge.

The pros will be deterred because they can't use their arsenal of tools, but the "fish" will also be deterred because they can no longer use their gut instincts, or memory of a thorough thrashing by particular opponents in the past that they can use to avoid playing them in the future.

In the long term, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", and will even find new tools to help them. On the other hand, the "fish" will have no way to take evasive action to avoid the predation. The fear that the pros will quickly find a new means of fleecing them will deter them from coming back until they can be assured by Bodog that they CANNOT be fleeced by clever pro players evolving their strategies. It could be more of a marketing problem, rather than conceptual.

It is such a change from the norm that uncertainty may be keeping players away, even those who are bound to be better off with this anonymous model.

 

[rockycatt]

there is also a great number of cheaters on cell phones and skype and thats even more rude

this should block them as well , thats what ftp was trying to do with that latest raped table exchange poker
format they last instituted i forget the name of it now but that was there intention along with speeding up rake

PS it was named RUSH POKER

 

[pokeraddict]

It turns out Bodog's anonymous tables can be hacked like the Party Poker ones:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So let's review - Bodog removes usernames to make the tables more fish friendly, then one of the major datamining services cracks it is just a few days. Let's add this to the no longer honoring problem gambler exclusions, the complete lack of security the new Bodog software offers and .... well I will not continue, we all know.

Also, this website makes some great points about how trusting a KGC poker room is a ridiculous thought:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

While I believe the sports book is still legit, I think the poker offering is not a secure site and should no longer be considered a legitimate poker room. They did not even bother to remove the usernames from the Bodog server and it got cracked in 3 days. What other security issues are there with this software that was touted as so secure that players need not worry about catching collusion and cheating because Bodog is on top of it?

I encourage Casinomeister to rethink the accredited status of Bodog.

 

[maxd]

I encourage Casinomeister to rethink the accredited status of Bodog.

Just a friendly reminder, if you want Bryan to see something like this ASAP do use the "Report Post" feature to bring it to his attention:

Attach Removed (Old not found)

 

[vinylweatherman]

Blimey!!

EDIT

In the long term, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", and will even find new tools to help them.

Replace with....

In a matter of days, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", through the use of new tools developed by those companies who's current tools have been rendered valueless, yet who are not prepared to shut up shop and go away.

I was thinking more along the lines of a new statistical model having to be developed to make sense of the anonymous records, as the current method requires individual players to be identified to the hand histories.

I had assumed that since screen names no longer formed part of the software, there would be no need to unnecessarily send this data to the client as it would clog up bandwidth.

It now looks like the software was merely "patched", rather than being rebuilt, so it could contain many other holes. It was poorly coded software that opened the exploits to the insiders at AP and UB.

Now, the "sharks" have an even BIGGER edge than before at Party Poker at least, because not only can they track down the "fish" as before, they can do so whilst those "fish" have dropped their guard because they believe they have been granted anonymity, and that if they get fleeced, it is all down to luck of the "shark" bumping into them.

It also seems that data mining still works as before, when we were told that the point of this move was to render such unfair tools useless to their users, and thus level the playing field.

We only found out this so fast because the data mining company decided to spill the beans. They could just as easily have kept quiet about this exploit, and developed it into a new tool for the "sharks", been vague as to exactly how it works, but sell it by convincing users that it DID work, and was well worth buying. Even if it came to light, many would have dismissed it as a scam on the part of the developer, and considered it in the same light as those that peddle "roulette systems" that can supposedly give the player an edge on a random game.

The article suggests that this exploit could have been around for far longer, but being sold on the black market for use at Party Poker and Microgaming networks.

If it turns out it WAS being used by players on these networks undetected by said networks, then can we really rely on the assurances from Bodog that they have in place the necessary procedures that would allow them to spot any such new tools appearing in their room, and put a stop to them.

Reading an active process list is no good, as it only detects known tools. Something completely new just wouldn't ring alarm bells. Even existing tools could be hidden from such detection, easily done by anyone with some programming knowledge, especially where they build the "exe" locally from source code and generic libraries.

 

[rockycatt]

if there really is any holes in bodogs latest attempt to block cheats then this is a good article it will give them more of what they need to go in the directin that there traveling to rid the poker rooms of PC farms , skype cheats as well as cell phone cheats and data miners

 

[pokeraddict]

This is what took 3 days to hack. Now all player's account numbers are exposed for the potential of hacking individual accounts plus the entire point of anonymous tables has been shown to now only favor people who datamine with companies like this one. If this hack was so easy, what about all of the other issues that have come with this "upgrade"? How long until even more security issues are exposed? I beg anyone that is promoting Bodog to immediately stop, at least until they fix this major security issue or really, go back to the old software.

I think this could qualify Bodog for the biggest blunder of the year. Bodog claimed this made everything more secure and we should 100% trust their security department meaning there is no reason for 3rd party oversight. According to them, all of the players screaming about the potential security issues were wrong. Obviously we were right and until Bodog reverts back to the old software they cannot be considered a secure place to play online poker.

 

[rockycatt]

well i think its time for bodog to address this publicly is it a horse or a cow ??

 

[BodogBecky]

It appears that Bodog's new software ignores casino self exclusions as well. The CS reply shows that the issue will not be resolved and tells the player not to click the icon if they do not want the casino games:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

This puts Bodog in conflict with being considered an accredited casino:



https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/accredited-casinos/

Just wanted to confirm that the Bodog Network team is going to fix this asap!

Becky

 

[pokeraddict]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

There is the dataminer's full explanation of what has happened here.

Even though this was discovered almost 24 hours ago the software is still operating and Bodog has said nothing. We know they are reading these forums...

 

[vinylweatherman]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

There is the dataminer's full explanation of what has happened here.

Even though this was discovered almost 24 hours ago the software is still operating and Bodog has said nothing. We know they are reading these forums...

I see, screen names are gone, but what is happening is that each client is being sent the Bodog ACCOUNT NUMBERS of every other player at "your" table. This is WORSE than others being able to see your screen name, as the account number is one of the secure fields used to log in to an account. It would be like casinos displaying my account number on the scoreboard of things like MPV tournaments. I have to admit, some MGS casinos actually DO this when they set up the alias for you, but mostly it seems to be naive players choosing their account numbers as their alias.

The account number issue here would seem to render all PAST data mining worthless, as it is based on screen names, but unbeknown to players, a fresh start could be made by tracking based on these account numbers.

Bodog are also accused of lying in their "spin" by indicating that this kind of hack could not even happen because the "data is not even sent to the client" and so it could never be intercepted.

It was easily spotted that these numbers were account numbers with the digit "1" added to the end by their programmer sitting down at the table, and comparing his own anonymised ID against his login, revealing the formula used by Bodog.

They finish off by arguing that the end result is WORSE than before, because the victims of the pro players have been lulled into a false sense of security, whereas before they KNEW they could be identified by their screen name, and tracked, even if they were unaware of how it was done, and by whom, or how much of an advantage it gave the pro players.

It seems the "party cracker" has been around for a while, so players there have been falsely believing they were completely anonymous to the "sharks", when in fact they were often "easy prey".

It seems odd that this company have decided to blow the whistle, rather than develop and sell "Bodog cracker" for profit, even though data mining poker hand histories is their business, and anything that stops this could drive them out of business. It seems THEY are "up to something" too, and have decided to sacrifice a potential "Bodog cracker" money making venture in order to gain some moral high ground that they probably hope will give them an even better opportunity later on.

It could be that they are trying to pressure Bodog into a rollback to the old software, and kill the idea among other poker sites that anonymous tables is a bad move. Their motive for this would be obvious, their old tools are no longer at risk of becoming obsolete, and this preserves the value of work they have already undertaken, and are profiting from.


It does not matter whether it is an account number or some other fixed numerical identifier that Bodog sends to the client, but hides from the "recreational user". ANY numerical value that is "hard wired" to a particular player can be used for datamining and player tracking, this value needs to stay on the server, and if the client needs something, it should be a disposable ID, a bit like the "one time only" credit card numbers generated by desktop virtual payment cards like Net+. This would ONLY be tied to a particular player for that one game at the one table, but could NOT be used to track and profile their playing style over a period of time at a number of different tables. I thought this was what Bodog had done to start with, and why a new statistical approach would be needed in order to develop a new set of tools for the pro player.

 

[P.V.]

Just wanted to confirm that the Bodog Network team is going to fix this asap!

Becky

I'm sure you will!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just wanted to confirm that the Bodog Network team is going to fix this asap!

Becky

BOTH issues, even the recently exposed data mining hack?

 

[pokeraddict]

Still nothing from Bodog except banning the accounts of people that discovered this security violation. Instead of accepting the fact they have some serious security issues and swallowing their pride, they ban the person that did their IT and developer's job for them for free. That is an interesting solution to getting caught with software that needs to be destroyed.

While this does not rank up there with insider cheating scandals or MG skin implosions, this is still a tier 2 scandal. Does Bodog think this is going to go away?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Still nothing from Bodog except banning the accounts of people that discovered this security violation. Instead of accepting the fact they have some serious security issues and swallowing their pride, they ban the person that did their IT and developer's job for them for free. That is an interesting solution to getting caught with software that needs to be destroyed.

While this does not rank up there with insider cheating scandals or MG skin implosions, this is still a tier 2 scandal. Does Bodog think this is going to go away?

A cover up in progress. This will ensure that others who have found this glitch and others will KEEP QUIET rather than blow the whistle and risk having their account banned. It will also stop anyone with the skills to investigate further from being open about it.

It is too late, the glitch is in the public domain, along with how to exploit it. There are bound to be players who will now start trying to use it to gain an advantage, and even other tool developers that will try to sell exploit tools on the black market.

Having buried the issue, the recreational players will again be lulled into a false sense of security, believing the glitch had been "dealt with", and could no longer be used. The players using it will be able to do so in the knowledge that Bodog officially deny such a glitch even exists any longer, and their victims believe this to be true.

If an account number is a critical piece of information needed to hack an account, there will be a rise in complaints from players who believe their Bodog accounts have been hacked, even though they have kept this information secure at their end as responsible players.

 

[pokeraddict]

The latest from HH Smithy. Bodog has had two full business days to respond to this and fix it (which appears to be impossible with their software) or go back to the previous version. They are usually very vocal about everything. Now that it has been shown that they are not running a secure online poker room they disappear.

 

[pokeraddict]

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So their software gets cracked in what is claimed to be 3 hours. Instead of swallowing their pride and admitting their experiment failed, they take cheap shots at the person that brought it public even though it was done for no monetary gain, only as a challenge and to prove Bodog was wrong.

 

[jetset]

It took them two days to come up with this spin and damage control?

On something as serious as a weak privacy element?

"The talents of the online poker community have been enormously helpful in testing the new software we have released. Obviously, any release has its teething problems and equally obviously we take any fault very seriously & we have released an update we are confident have addressed the most pressing issues.

"The input of poker players and software professionals since our launch has helped us make our system more robust and highlight how strong the poker community is."

Attacking Boddy could be described as a bit of Ayre bluster, and therefore not untypical, I think.

But on the positive side they have certainly got the message about the privacy flaw in their software...and that not everyone is over the moon about their new policy.

 

[pokeraddict]

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There is the blog post that goes along with the latest Bodog security issues discovered.

 

[threescatters]

I have just read that everyone who used to be prevented from sitting together at a table (due to being caught for colluding in the past), can now sit together again - how bad is that!?!!

 

[rockycatt]

I have just read that everyone who used to be prevented from sitting together at a table (due to being caught for colluding in the past), can now sit together again - how bad is that!?!!

hm mm is there a link to that story about cheaters and coulers why dident they just ban them ??

 

[threescatters]

hm mm is there a link to that story about cheaters and coulers why dident they just ban them ??

Hi rockycatt,

It has been reported in the threads over on 2+2 about this. I dont play poker on bodog so cant confirm myself

 

[pokeraddict]

As I understand it, Bodog had restricted players from playing at the same tables in the old software that had ever signed in from the same IP address, shared home addresses, shared computers, payment methods, soft played each other etc. These are common restrictions that online poker rooms have to prevent collusion. These restrictions were not carried over to the new software nor are new restrictions created in the new software it would appear from reading player's reports.

I have no first hand knowledge, this is something that is being discussed in other poker forums though.

 

[kyleb]

*dusts off the old CM account*

Thanks for posting this, Pokeraddict.

I'm the man behind these videos, and Pokeraddict has summed it up pretty well.

If anyone has specific questions, I can answer them for you.

 

[rockycatt]

*dusts off the old CM account*

Thanks for posting this, Pokeraddict.

I'm the man behind these videos, and Pokeraddict has summed it up pretty well.

If anyone has specific questions, I can answer them for you.

well do you think bodog had another agenda other than making a level playing field for recreational poker payers by ridding the site from professional grinders aided with program software they dont want on there site

 

[kyleb]

well do you think bodog had another agenda other than making a level playing field for recreational poker payers by ridding the site from professional grinders aided with program software they dont want on there site

I can't say for sure, but ridding the poker economy of the largest winners is a great way to achieve more parity, and thus more rake generated. I can't guess at their intentions, but the facts do speak for themselves.

 

[rockycatt]

I can't say for sure, but ridding the poker economy of the largest winners is a great way to achieve more parity, and thus more rake generated. I can't guess at their intentions, but the facts do speak for themselves.

i agree with what you say here makes good business sence , im hopeing that this is a well intentioned thing that just had a bug in it as far as the hacking ability of others

 

[jetset]

For at least the past year operators have been discussing the business advantages of more "fish-friendly" operating policies, and I think that must be an element in the thinking here, too.

 

[threescatters]

*dusts off the old CM account*

Thanks for posting this, Pokeraddict.

I'm the man behind these videos, and Pokeraddict has summed it up pretty well.

If anyone has specific questions, I can answer them for you.

First of all well done for finding the flaw in bodogs new software

Secondly I'd just like to say I basically agree with all pokeraddict has said and I think bodog are being shown up here......however a serious question

Are you, as Calvin ayre claimed on his blog, the chief marketing officer for hhsmithy.com?

 

[jetset]

I think the question of motivation (ie is this guy the CMO of the exposing company) is largely moot; the fact of the matter is that the flaw has been exposed which is a positive outcome seeing as Bodog has been forced to address the issue...and hopefully will continue to do so.

The status of Kyle Boddy - who has not concealed his identity - is a distraction being exploited by Bodog's "shoot the messenger" diversionary tactic, surely?

AFAIC I don't have a problem with HHSmithy getting some cheap publicity on the back of the expose...that's happened before in this industry just this year in the Absolute Poker security scare. If I remember correctly that company - for all its bad history - actually embraced the discovery of a flaw and worked with the independent who had found it to engineer a fix.

 

[threescatters]

It's not motivation I am questioning, and I am impressed with his work however.

These hand history sites are viewed badly by almost all players from recreational who know about them up to full time pros. The sites all explicitly dissallow them. Note that collecting hands on your opponents by playing against them is fine. However these sites data mining my hands when not playing v me, displaying my results and stats for all to see and offering my opponents the chance to buy hands on me to get an edge is extremely immoral IMO. Everybody wants to see them shut down that I speak to, although anonymous tables is not the way to do it.

My point is as impressed as I was by his hack if this guy is heavily involved in these sites he is ethically and morally far worse than bodog and frankly he can bugger off as far as I'm concerned (if that is the case ofc I am wanting clarification here)