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Cross brand exclusion - UK?

V

Vicky87

Dormant Account
CM Veteran (10yr+)
Joined
Nov 28, 2013
Location
England
Hi, I have read a lot of threads on this forum over time, and something that sticks in my mind is how a lot of members say under UKGC regs, an exclusion is across all sites on said license. Is this correct or have I misunderstood somewhere or missed some info? Currently having some issues where a site is claiming that exclusion is only on the site the exclusion was made on. However, same label have refused winnings as exclusions exist on same license. So I am obviously a little confused by this as that appears to be wanting it both ways? If both 'rules' exist then if an exclusion exists anywhere, they can refuse any winnings, but also keep all deposits, essentially a win win for them, as I understand it? Also, it appears no checking is done before a withdrawal is requested, so by that time, some players might be massively down..and have no actual way of winning. And only find this out after a win is denied. Clearly if all is lost, the regs suddenly do not apply too and its tough for the player.

Also slightly odd is the fact that support keeps talking about MGA regs randomly, where as I am in the UK, surely UK regs cover me? UKGC was only mentioned for them to say rules say that any winnings have to be withheld and only deposits returned as exclusion on network exists, they said they would be risking their license should they pay winnings when they know a SE exists on the network, which I guess is fair enough. However, they then switched back to MGA for how apparently a self exclusion is only for one site and NOT cross network. Though eventually claimed that UKGC also say its only on one site rather than cross brand.

Besides lurking here a lot, I don't have too much experience of casinos mind. Its only been since support brought up a self exclusion that I have been looking about to see if they are correct. I didn't even know the site I excluded on was on the same licese as current site until support brought it up. I took the refusal of winnings (subsequent refund of deposits in that case, rather than winnings paid) on the chin, as it seems thats the correct interpretation of the regs But I don't see how it can be right to return deposits when someone wins, but not if they lose also? Basically, if I have a permanent self exclusion on one site, does this carry over to every site on the license, in the UK? And do casinos legally have to refuse winnings because of a self exclusion on another site on same license?

As a slight aside, the casino I am currently having issues with allowed loads of deposits, then when a small withdrawal was asked for suddenly loads of documents were needed so I could be verified. I thought this was meant to have ended now? As I understood it, players must be verified before depositing these days. Obviously it might be different if large withdrawal requested, or proof of income or something, but this was literally under 100 quid when the deposits are at least 20x that. I am not complaining about that part though as had docs already there just incase (though took near 4 days to verify with them), but..given the exclusion thing and this together, it kind of seems this casino is playing a bit loose with UKGC regs, only actually following them when it suits them to do so, such as when a withdrawal that takes someone over lifetime deposits is asked for, suddenly, only deposits can be refunded as an exclusion exists and its against regs to pay winnings in that situation apparently.

I guess the above kind of ties in with the problem I am having. Because if an exclusion exists on one site..then surely when depositing on another, when the verification is done, the exclusion would be noticed at that stage, not only later when withdrawal is requested?

Finally, if I am correct in that a SE should be across all sites on the license, where do I go from here? Support has told me

'The self exclusion was set as Brand only, this can be done under UKGC regulations.
Related accounts are only excluded upon players request or sue to a responsible gaming report.'

(pasted as recieved, obviously they meant 'due' rather than sue, just a typo)

So they seem to say that UKGC do not say an exclusion should be carried over? But from everything I have read, this seems to not be the case and it should be carried over, especially as a permanent exclusion. Please tell me where I misunderstood, if I did too. As I said, not exactly a seasoned player so a lot of this is just from reading around for hours.

If this is in wrong section too then I apologize..seemed to fit best here.

Also to clarify, I am certainly not trying to have it both ways like the casino is. I just wish to know which approach is correct, as you would think its EITHER pay winnings OR refund deposits (ie..make all bets void, is the way it seems to be put). I have both going on at the same time, from casinos on same license. So whichever way its meant to go, casino is in the wrong IMO. Obviously it would be wrong for me to expect both winnings and refunds, as that makes it impossible for casino to win. But thats the equivalant of what the casino is doing by my reckoning.

Its not even for huge amounts, at this stage its more the principle of it. Either my 1k winings should be paid on site A and deposits on site B retained. Or 1.4k deposits refunded on site B. Surely its not acceptable to return deposits only in case of a win and retain them otherwise..
 
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Basically - self exclusion in the UK is per licence. There may be multiple brands on that licence, so if you're excluded from Casino A, you're also excluded from all others under that licence number.

However, a business can also own more than one licence. So you may be excluded on the licence for Casino A, but they don't have to exclude you if Casino B is on another licence.

To muddy it a bit more, they can still choose to exclude you against ALL of their licences, but they don't have to. (And I think you could argue that if they cross-licence excluded you, they should pay out any winnings before closing your account, as this is their choice rather than their obligation.)

No (reputable) MGA site should have accepted you unless they have a UKGC licence, so hopefully they're just confused.
 
Thank you, thats how I interpretted it all.

The license situation, am I right in thinking thats the list of sites that come up when you click on the UKGC link on the bottom of the casino home page? If so, they are not on seperate licenses.

Withholding winnings is casinos choice rather than a regulation? If so I was blatantly lied to rather than a mistake made as I was told that the UKGC say specifically that no winnings should be payed to an excluded player (on same license) but the account should be returned to how it would be if it never existed basically, hence refunding deposits as bets were all void. As I said, I accepted this as it seemed this was correct, but if its not..then I don't know what to think here.

From what you said, it would be best to go for the attempting to get the win option, instead of deposits? (deposits were refunded already on the one where I won, but assume I could ask for the difference)

Obviously the win was less than the deposits, but am willing to go for either, just I am sure I am entitled to one of them. They can even pick tbh if they want but they seem to be not acknowleding the clear problem here. I just want them to play fair. Not exactly a large win/loss, but its just the situation seems shocking and if this is something thats regular, I can see it causing huge issues for some players tbh.

Actually considering stopping gambling altogether through this as its so stressful and I feel quite cheated which I have never felt before from any casino. Gambling is pretty much my only vice though and being housebound kind of means..I can do not that much else really!
 
Naming the casinos in question would help immensely, chances are someone else has had similar, or we can look at the T&C's, check license etc.

If they are refusing winnings on the grounds of a SE at another casino, then they should refund deposits, so they have done the right thing there. (edited this bit as re-read your posts)

If they are on the same license, then you should complain to the UKGC.
 
I was under the impression they didn't have to pay out winnings if you'd been excluded on the same licence. But if the UKGC has confirmed otherwise, and your winnings were higher than your total deposits, I'd be pursuing the winnings, but as goodwill to them suggesting they subtract the deposits already refunded from the overall win.

Which Casino/licence is it?

(And yes, the licence should always be on the front page of the casino site, and in most cases accessible just by clicking the Gambling Commission logo.)
 
No UKGC didn't confirm, thats just what I have intepreted from my hours of searching. I would feel a bit cheeky asking for the win but also the deposits, even as goodwill as that would put casino at a loss which is not fair really. Just either win, or deposits would be fine, and an aknowledgment that they were in the wrong. (edited..I think I read that bit wrong. Winnings minus the already refunded deposits would be fine, thats all I would expect anyway as otherwise they are losing a lot)

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List of casinos on license^

Exclusion is on trada. Loss is karamba. Win was playfrank.
 

Ah, Aspire. It's possible @TradaCasino may be able to assist - not the same casino, but on the same licence and a decent rep.
 
If it was before, would they not still need to crosscheck given exclusions on the group were applied to trada?

This is how this has happened actually. I did not know trada was in same group. Have since started reading the trada moving to AG thread today but not finished yet. Very long thread.

Even if the exclusion was before the move, they clearly they knew about the exclusion and deemed it relevant. As they used it to retain winnings. Then to refuse deposit refund also. So even if it was before, the fact that they were the ones who told me about it kind of says they have access to tradas excluded players list? Or tradas excluded players were migrated along with site.

Its all so confusing. All of this was around the same time too. After winnings were withheld, I searched a bit to check and found out playfrank was on same license as trada. Then that karamba is also. Thats when I started thinking depoisits should be returned, as they used SE on one site so clearly it should be on others too, not only applied if player wins something.

Whatever the outcome here, I am never going near any aspire global sites again. Though, the exclusion should be over all so I shouldn't have the option to anyway.
 
I had a Trada account originally, but when they migrated to Aspire it was automatically excluded because I had excluded on an AG site years ago (before I knew what it meant!).

Yours seems to be the same in reverse. Not a simple solution as they are obliged to apply the exclusion, but I always feel it unfair that a business transaction between two companies can impact their customer who shouldn't be expected to track back through every licence they may have played under in case they might have excluded!

I'd definitely be pinging @TradaCasino and possibly doing a PAB if you're not happy.
 
If AG exclusions applied to trada, then I would think it would be the other way round too. Well, they seem to have said it is the other way around as they used it for the refusal of payout.

Ugh. I am so annoyed over this whole thing. Really really wish I hadn't bothered.

I remember joining trada before November last year. Was on there for a while. Support told me that my exclusion on trada started 20/11/2019. Which seems convenient as that seems to be the day that the merge happened, so weird timing. Am thinking possibly this means I excluded before that date, but when the changeover happened, the exclusion was carried, hence saying it started the day of the switch, if that makes sense?
 
It's a minefield to be honest..Kindred claim they didnt apply 32 red exclusion when the bought them over. But did apply s.e. when they bought stan james? Its hard to know where u stand. Also, casinos have been shown to allow players to play on a sister site, but apply exclude terms to others.
To sum up..it's as clear as mud.:confused:
 
I don't have emails from that far back. It might well have been the 20th, but I thought it was before this. But support on karamba told me it was 20/11/19, then when I checked with tradas live chat (though turned out to be same agent!) they said 20/11/19 also.

But yes, I did SE from trada, for life. However, I had no idea they were on aspire network until support told me this.

Have had another email claiming UKGC allow exclusions for UK players on only one site on the network. Which again, I feel is false from what I have read.

Latest email says

'We are contacting you in regards to your previous email. Please note that this information is correct - we offer two types of Self Exclusion - the Self Exclusion on single brand only and the Self Exclusion on the network level. On our related brand you activated the Self exclusion for that brand only. Can you please confirm if you would like the Self Exclusion on our entire network?'

I have replied here saying that basically them offering single site exclusions doesn't have anything to do with UKGC regulations as far as I can tell. They can offer it, maybe for people playing elsewhere, but it seems quite clear that UK should be cross license. Have also taken them up on offer of cross site exclusion now, though pointed out that that shouldn't currently be an issue anyway as the exclusion should have been applied before now anyway!

When I actually excluded, I do not remember any option of 'single brand or network' as claimed mind. But regardless, if I was offered that and chose single then..would that override UKGC?

As they insist on stating they are following the regs when I am almost positive they are not, it seems I am going to have to escalate this tbh. Do you think an ADR would help here, or should I go to gambling commission directly? It seems from reading (again) that GC does not take individual cases though, so I wouldn't think that would help much at all..though it could go towards building a case for a fine from them or something (which would hopefully stop others getting stuck in this mess in the future..), if more than me has had same issue.

Also though, apparently you need to have exhausted all other options before UKGC.

Thanks for the replies.
 
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The 20.11.19 was the date they switched to the Aspire network, unless it was a massive coincidence then it's likely you excluded before then.
If you go through the trada thread when they moved, Rachel or Connor confirm that any SE on Trada will transfer to the Aspire network the day they move, possibly around pages 10-15.

Under UK regulations, you are excluded from all Aspire sites. Their support is one of the worst in the industry, take no notice of them, you may as well talk to a ball of wool, at least it wouldn't give you incorrect information.

You won't be paid your winnings, however you should get all deposits from 20.11.19 refunded.

If they refuse, then you could possible PAB here, @maxd do you deal with SE complaints, and are Karamba responsive at all? If not, then make a formal complaint to Aspire Global, and then if you get nowhere complain to the UKGC. It won't be a quick process though.

I would also send a SAR requesting the date of SE, and a copy of any chats and/or emails relating to your SE, the address is [email protected]
 
Talking absolute rubbish..i bet they didn't offer single site exclude or network exclusion when you set it. Another casino trying to fob player off with utter tripe. Hope you get your deposits back, but unfortunately casinos know players have no real power when complaining. ADR doesnt deal with s.e. and gambling commission don't want to know. Don't even inform you of any outcome or not!! Weighted for casinos I'm afraid.
 
Thanks for the replies. It does seem my initial understanding was correct, regardless of how much they try to gaslight me. They were right to refuse winnings because of the exclusion. So it looks to be the return of deposits I should push for, rather than payment of winnings (was never going to try for both as thats unfair)

I do think the exclusion was before November last year. In which case, its clear they knew about the exclusion as it looks like I was added to their database after the merge. It would be far too much of a coincidence if it was actually on that day, and it seems like ages ago, not a few months..mind my perception of time is majorly messed up at the minute. The reps saying tradas exclusions will be excluded on aspire also goes in my favour really. Still going through that thread, slowly but surely, on page 7 now so will get there soon.

Will try once more, if support answers me. But after that will try another route. I cannot see myself getting anywhere at all though when they are outright lying to me about it all.
 
colinsunderland said:
...@maxd do you deal with SE complaints, and are Karamba responsive at all? ...
Click to expand...

Yes regarding SE complaints.

As to the responsiveness of Karamba I'd have to begin by saying that it's been a while since the last PAB against them, so the situation may well have changed since then. In any case that last one took a bit of faffing about but we did get there in the end.
 
Have just done the SAR request

Aswell as what you said, I added I would like a copy of all cmmunication after the self exclusion was brought up on karamba, including any notes places on my account. Unsure if they can actually provide that part or not, but I am curious give it seems I have been correct since the start despite their outright lies to me. If they can't, nothing lost.

Guessing I should wait for this information before making any other steps?

Thanks so much for your help on here, really.
 
You aren't going to get far without it. Just so you are aware, the DPO at Aspire routinely ignores SAR's, which they need reporting to the ICO for if they do to you. I would drop Rachel a message though as she might get it quicker :)
 
Reply recieved from karamba

'We are writing in regards to your last email. Please refer to the email we have sent you previously.
To confirm you had option to self exclude the account on full network.'

Total failure to acknowledge anything I actually wrote.
 
AND they still have not applied the exclusion cross site. They haven't even added it on karamba nevermind elsewhere (except on playfrank where winings were made, of course..trada exclusions apply there!) despite my last email saying of course I want it cross site, as it should have been to start with...fantastic service here..

Edit. Despite mentioning playfrank, I am no longer in communication with them as I do think they followed regs and did the right thing in refusing winnings but returning deposits. Seems definitely right for them to do given the circumstances. Whats annoying me most is how it can apply when I win, yet when losing (the win and loss were around the same amounts too really) on same network suddenly the regs do not apply and exclusion is only on trada.
 
Last edited:
I also have an issue with Aspire Gaming and their failure to adopt RG controls.

I had an account previously at Trada, which I Self Excluded. I also had one at Goliath Casino, also self excluded

I will point out that I am GamStop registered.

I have recently been able to register through my own lack of self control at PlayLuck, Next and Betiton.

I was given the option at PlayLuck to exclude from just there or the network. At the time I chose just there. It appears that being a UK player I should have been SE across their network.

I hen asked for my account at Next to be closed permanently on live chat with Annie.

I then got an email from them saying due to taking RG very seriously my SE was put in place. I didn’t ask for SE. I actually believe however that this actually proves my point.

Since that SE was supposedly put in place, I have and can still log into Betiton deposit and play which I have just this evening. They are all on the same UKGC licence so how is this allowed to happen?

I have asked for my deposits back minus any withdrawals due to this being a clear lack of RG measures.

they denied because they said my details at Betiton were different to Trada. But they are 100% the same as Next Casino so how am I still able to play at Betiton?

I have proof of the SE from Next and the subsequent deposit at Betiton.
Am I going mad or is this clearly a blatant breach of RG protocol by Aspire Gaming?

They blocked me from emailing Next Casino even though the SE email said if you have any questions, email our care team. I can also prove that they blocked me.
Now they just don’t respond to emails. Surely these people don’t deserve a UK Licence.
 
Might be wrong but sure they are not all the same licence now, different platforms etc.

so you may not have a hope.

also think @Harry_BKK may have addressed a similar issue with aspire etc previously on here, he’s also more knowledgeable than me on the matter in question, so if he’s about and I’m correct I’m sure he would be able to chime in and help.

best I can do here, but I’d not count my chickens.
 
Playford7 said:
Might be wrong but sure they are not all the same licence now, different platforms etc.

so you may not have a hope.

also think @Harry_BKK may have addressed a similar issue with aspire etc previously on here, he’s also more knowledgeable than me on the matter in question, so if he’s about and I’m correct I’m sure he would be able to chime in and help.

best I can do here, but I’d not count my chickens.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Playford. I found this on the GC website:
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All of said casinos are listed on there, is that one licence or multiple? I’m no expert in all of this.

Many thanks
 
Playford7 said:
Might be wrong but sure they are not all the same licence now, different platforms etc.

so you may not have a hope.

also think @Harry_BKK may have addressed a similar issue with aspire etc previously on here, he’s also more knowledgeable than me on the matter in question, so if he’s about and I’m correct I’m sure he would be able to chime in and help.

best I can do here, but I’d not count my chickens.
Click to expand...
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www.betiton.com
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Generationvip.com
Hopa.com
Karamba.com
Scratch2Cash.com
neptuneplay.com

That is the current list on Aspire's license 39483

@TravellingRecluse

Any SE should be across the whole license. @CasinoLuck_Eric is the rep for next casino, and Rachel for Trada @TradaCasino I would suggest getting in touch with both of them, any SE at Trada from before the move to Aspire should have been carried over.

What is the difference in registration details?
 
Cheers col, @TravellingRecluse this might help you mate.
 

Cheers Colin.

To be honest I cannot remember as Trada was a while ago. At most I would say email and possibly residential address.

However, and I’m sure you will agree, that does not forgive the subsequent registration and exclusion at Next not carrying over to Betiton, who even now are allowing me to play (I’m not physically playing now but I did a few hours ago, I can still log in)

Shambolic, none of these places have asked for ID at any point.
 
TravellingRecluse said:
Thanks for the reply Playford. I found this on the GC website:
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All of said casinos are listed on there, is that one licence or multiple? I’m no expert in all of this.

Many thanks
Click to expand...
And CG isn’t worth a monkeys toss, stick to a site like this with members whom know there shit, are not all affiliates and the management and mods know there shit too.
 
TravellingRecluse said:
Cheers Colin.

To be honest I cannot remember as Trada was a while ago. At most I would say email and possibly residential address.

However, and I’m sure you will agree, that does not forgive the subsequent registration and exclusion at Next not carrying over to Betiton, who even now are allowing me to play (I’m not physically playing now but I did a few hours ago, I can still log in)

Shambolic, none of these places have asked for ID at any point.
Click to expand...
Aspire are as dodgy as a pair of terrible underpants mate.

trada where once superb and the best customer service in the business, sadly no more.

im not sure but you maybe able to fight your cause with a PAB here, @maxd is the man to contact if you wish to try this route.

the brand and licenses are literally in my opinion bottom feeders and think you’re chances of success are slim, but it’s worth a go pal.

best of luck

Ben (the John wick to streamers)
 
The bit I can’t get my head around though is how these cowboys can continue to hold a license when it is clear they conduct shady business. The Swedish regulator took action against Aspire so why does the UKGC who are supposedly one of if not the most highly regarded of them all, let these places act with zero repercussion? Just an awful state of affairs as I see it.
 
TravellingRecluse said:
The bit I can’t get my head around though is how these cowboys can continue to hold a license when it is clear they conduct shady business. The Swedish regulator took action against Aspire so why does the UKGC who are supposedly one of if not the most highly regarded of them all, let these places act with zero repercussion? Just an awful state of affairs as I see it.
Click to expand...
This is why the ukgc are now (eventually) clamping down mate, it’s been like the Wild West for years, something had to give.

sadly many like yourself are out of pocket due to so called reliable and genuine companies taking the piss and being allowed to for years.

As said I wish you the best of luck.
 
Playford7 said:
... im not sure but you maybe able to fight your cause with a PAB here, @maxd is the man to contact if you wish to try this route. ...
Click to expand...

FWIW we've had mixed success with cases against Aspire casinos: most go okay, a few go nowhere.
@TravellingRecluse , I'm happy to give it a shot for you if you want to go the PAB route. That process would start here: Submit Your Online Casino Complaint - Casinomeister
 


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