Dear Fortune Lounge Management

[Adde]

Dear Fortune Lounge Management,

I know you browse some gambling forums, so I urge you to come out here and do the right thing, cause your staff is clearly doing anything they can to con me out of my money from Platinum Play.

In a nutshell, I deposited and got the bonus when the terms allowed blackjack, and before I started to play you changed the terms to not include blackjack. I asked your support and they told me the old terms were in effect for me, but when I tried to cash out, lo and behold, your support claim that the new terms should be applied.

After numerous emails, all I get back from you is either nothing or nonsense replies. That may be ok for you, Fortune Lounge management, you probably make a good earning with this because most people don't have the stamina to compete with your staff of nonsense writers, and instead go back to the casino and lose their money.

And you know what? I probably should have done the same myself, forget about the 120, cause your nonsense writer staff have really earned their salary this time. With great success they have made me so fed up with this that I can not take it anymore. Your staff gets paid, I get severe headaches, and many hours of useless work just to keep up with you.

Here's what happened. At the end you find all email correspondance between me and Fortune Lounge.


COURSE OF ACTION
================================================

1. On march 14 I deposit 50, and wager the deposit in full to get the 100 match bonus and 10 free bonus. I read the terms carefully: wager 15 times deposit + bonus before cash-in, blackjack and video poker allowed.

2. The same day I also got a 10% NETeller bonus which I asked you to remove.

3. Two days later, march 16, you had the NETeller bonus removed, but not only that, for some reason you removed it twice. Well, that's only 5, not worth all the trouble having it refunded so I didn't notice you about it.

4. Before I started to play I double checked the terms, and now they were changed to only include 20% blackjack. I emailed you and asked what terms would apply to my bonus, the one in effect when I deposited or the one in effect after the change. Your answer was that the old terms would apply, so I began to play.

5. Six days later, march 22, I used "Playcheck" to make sure I had met the wager requirements, and then cashed out my money back to my NETeller account, 120.

6. On march 24 I get an email from ECash Operations Casinodesk Support, telling me that my bonuses have been forfeited because I have not met the wagering requirements. And once again, even though the NETeller bonus already was removed twice, you removed it once again, together with the 100 signup bonus. Also, the email says I only had wagered 0 correctly, which is not correct according to any of the terms, new or old.

QUESTION: Can players trust you with their money when your backoffice operations don't seem to have any control what so ever? Removal of the same bonus three times!?! Zero wagered when your "Playcheck" feature tells me I have wagered way over 2000?!?

QUESTION: Can players trust you by your words, when your support tells me one thing before I start to play, and then your support tells me another thing when I cash-in?

7. On march 24 I send you an email, attaching the previous email I got from your support who told me the old terms were in effect.

8. On march 27, no response from you so I sent the email a second time.

9. On march 29, no response from you so I sent the email a third time.

10. Finally, on march 29, you reply to me. Reply #1 is nonsense, so I ask you to explain it in plain english.

11. On the same day, reply #2 I don't know if I should laugh or cry at, cause you refer to a previous cash-in at 7Sultans and tell me that all is well, I got my money. Yes I did, at 7Sultans!!

QUESTION: 7Sultans?!? I'm talking about Platinum Play, how hard is that to understand?

12. Once again, another email to you and another reply from you where you "apologize for any inconvenience", and then tell me that I only have 15 in my account, and the minimum cash-in is 30.

QUESTION: What the ****? You even read the emails you get?

</end of course of action>


EMAIL CORRESPONDENCE
================================================

From: Andreas
Sent: 16 March 2004 10:48
To: [email protected]
Subject: Bonus question

Hello,

I got the signup bonus a couple of days ago but have been waiting to play until you removed the NETeller bonus. Now that this is done I see that you have changed to terms for this bonus. I read the terms carefully before depositing, and when I got the bonus it was ok to play blackjack and vide poker to meet the wager requirement. Now it is not.

I would imagine that the terms I got when depositing and getting the bonus should apply, not the changed terms of today?

In other words, can I play blackjack and video poker to meet my wager requirement or not? If not, I have to ask you to remove my bonus so I can cashout my deposit.

Regards,

Andreas

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
To: "'Andreas
Subject: RE: Bonus question
Date: den 17 mars 2004 00:02

Hi Andreas,

Kingdom here at the Fortune Lounge. Thank you for your mail.

I have looked into your account and saw that you made your purchase on the
02/14, the new wagering requirement came into effect on the 02/15. As a
result you can still use Blackjack as well as Video poker for wagering this
purchase.

Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me.

I am here to service and assist you in any way possible 24 hours a day.

Kind regards,

Kingdom

Customer Care Consultant

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Casinodesk Support" <[email protected]>
To: andreas
Subject: Wagering of your bonus
Date: den 24 mars 2004 17:12

Hi Andreas,

We refer to your cashin of $120.00 on your Platinum Play account number
XXXXXXXXXXX.

We'd like to inform you that the amount you have requested to cash-in
includes certain bonuses, which you have received from various promotional
offers. All of our bonus allocations have wagering requirements associated
with them before they can be cashed in.

Please note that we have deducted the forfeited bonus from your cash-in, as
you needed to wager $2325 on any of the games that are not excluded from the
wagering requirements, to cash in this amount. (Please note: A maximum of
20% of your wagering requirements can be met on BlackJack for certain
bonuses).

You only wagered $0 correctly, and therefore the following bonuses have been
forfeited as per our Terms and Conditions.
$100 Platinum Play 200% purchase match $5.00 Neteller 10% up to $1000

However, if there is a remainder left after forfeiting the bonus, the Cashin
(excluding the bonus amount that was removed) will be processed accordingly
and will be on its way to you.

Should you require any additional clarity on your options, please do not
hesitate to contact us.

For more information regarding the wagering requirements of promotional
bonuses, please click on the link below:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Should you have any questions at all, please call us on one of the toll free
numbers below or email us at: [email protected]

Thank you again for choosing to play at The Fortune Lounge Casino Group. We
truly believe you'll be happy here.

Best wishes and Best of luck,

Guy
ECash Operations

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Casinodesk Support" <[email protected]>
CC: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wagering of your bonus
Date: den 24 mars 2004 19:21

Hi,

I got the signup bonus before you changed your terms to worse. I emailed
your support and made sure that the old terms were in effect for me. See
attached email conversation.

Also, before I started to play with my signup bonus I asked for the NETeller
bonus to be removed. How come you say "the following bonuses have been
forfeited as per our Terms and Conditions. $100 Platinum Play 200% purchase
match $5.00 Neteller 10% up to $1000."? Actually, you made a mistake and
removed my NETeller bonus twice before I started to play. I did not notify
you of this because of the tiny sum and I didn't want to go through more
hassles again before I could start to play the bonus.

I'm so tired of having to go through this trouble for every single
transaction!!

I ask you to refund my bonuses, fix the mistake of the duplicate NETeller
bonus removal, and make sure I have all my money in my NETeller account
without any further delays.

I have seen Fortune Lounge management respond to player problems at the
Casinomeister forum, so I know that you are reasonable and respectable.
Therefor, please spare me the trouble of having to ask for help in public,
and fix this right away.

Regards,

Andreas

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
CC: "Casinodesk Support" <[email protected]>
Subject: Fw: Wagering of your bonus
Date: den 27 mars 2004 03:09

I sent you this 50 hours ago and nothing has happened. What's happening?

Andreas

<COPY OF FIRST EMAIL>

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Fw: Wagering of your bonus
Date: den 29 mars 2004 14:07

I sent this to support at Fortune Lounge (and also casinodesk support) five
days ago (yes, 5 days!) and nothing has happened. What's happening?

Andreas

<COPY OF FIRST EMAIL>

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Fortunelounge" <[email protected]>
To: Andreas
Subject: Customer Statement
Date: den 29 mars 2004 14:57

Good day,

Please find attached, a statement reflecting the status of your recent cash-in. The statement reflects whether your cash-in has been allocated and, if this is the case, how
it has been allocated (amounts refunded to credit cards and/or how much is still due to be paid).

Should your cash-in (or part thereof) still reflect as "pending", please ensure that you have returned all outstanding verification documents. Alternatively, we might be
awaiting clearance for your Firepay Purchases.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT WHILST THE CASINO ENDEAVOURS TO PAY ALL OF THEIR
PLAYERS VIA THEIR SELECTED METHOD OF PAYMENT, MANAGEMENT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO PAY ANY CASH-IN VIA THE METHOD THAT THEY DEEM
TO BE THE MOST VIABLE.

PLEASE EXAMINE YOUR STATEMENT CLOSELY TO SEE WHICH METHOD WAS USED.

We have pleasure in attaching your statement for 24th to 26 March 2004

Please note that Credit Card refunds take approximately 5 - 6 working
days, an ACH Bank Transfer takes approximately 5 - 6 working days, a NETeller refund takes approximately 24 hours, a Firepay refund takes approximately 24 hours. A
Check takes approximately 21 working days via regular mail and 3 - 4 working days if sent via Courier. Should your cashin (or part thereof) reflect as "credit against
cashin" this means that this amount was reversed to your casino account.

If you have any questions or comments please do not hesitate to contact
one of our friendly service consultants in our 24-hour Customer Service
Center on: 1-800-587-9036 or alternatively email us at: [email protected]

Kind Regards

Casinodesk E-Cash

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Fortunelounge" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Customer Statement
Date: den 29 mars 2004 14:53

Good day,

First I get an email that says my bonus have been taken away and the rest of my cash-in has been reversed back to my account, then I wait for five days for a reply to my emails to you, and now I get this email that I hardly can understand.

Can you be so kind to explain to me, in plain english, what is going on here?

Regards,

Andreas

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
To: Andreas
Subject: Customer Statement
Date: den 29 mars 2004 16:48

Hi Andreas,

I had a look at your cash-in on the 7Sultans casino and would like to inform
you that your $210,26 were credited back to your Neteller account on the
16/03/2004. The funds normal take 24-48 hours to reflect in the account.

Please click on the link below for more information on our alternative
purchase methods and the great benefits they offer.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

<http://www.fortunelounge.com/purchasehelper.asp>

Forgot your casino account number or password ?

If you are unsure of any of your Fortune Lounge casino account numbers or
passwords all you need to do is click on the link below and enter all the
requested information.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

<http://www.fortunelounge.com/password.asp>

Sincerely,
Steyn
Customer Care Consultant

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Customer Statement
Date: den 29 mars 2004 17:32

7Sultans was way back in time, this matter is about my cash-in from Platinum Play!

This is too much trouble for me. You have me put down so much effort and time with this matter, and I get nothing back but form letters and incorrect information. I can't stand it anymore!

If you don't make my cash-in of 120 from Platinum Play (plus the duplicated removal of 5 NETeller bonus, a total of 125) get into my NETeller account within 24 hours, then I will post all email correspondance and ask for help in the Casinomeister forum.

You have all information needed for this (see attached files for complete correspondance), so there is no need for you to get back to me with NOTHING BUT an email saying I have got my 125 at NETeller.

Regards

Andreas

-----------------------------------------------------------

From: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
To: Andreas
Subject: Customer Statement
Date: den 29 mars 2004 22:23

Hi Andreas,

I do apologize for any inconvenience you have suffered with regard to this
cashin.Regrettably,I must inform you that after the forfeited bonus amounts
were removed,a balance of 15 was left.The minimum amount that can be cashed
out is 30.

The bonuses were forfeit because you did not meet the wagering
requirement.Please feel free to contact our support desk in future should
you ever need to ensure that you can cashin in without forfeiting bonuses.

We are available 24/7 for your gaming convenience so please do not hesitate
to contact us should the need ever arise.

Warmest Regards
Kofi
Support Desk


</end of email correspondence>

 

[jpm]

Wow, what a fiasco! In my opinion, you were told in writing that the conditions that were in effect when you deposited would apply when you withdrew, so that's what should happen. At the very least, even with the 20% rule, you haven't wagered $0, you've wagered at least $465 "correctly".

I know that FL does monitor this forum and I'd expect a response soon.

 

[m249a]

Wow!!!

This type of double talk and changing the rules in mid swing seems to be standard operating procedure for alot of these places...I have a feeling my online gamming days are over...

 

[amandajm]

Sad, so sad.

It is quite clear that the emails are not being read properly.

I had a 20 plus email run in with these guys about 2 years ago now, nothing has changed. I got paid in the end but it was just nonsense all the way 'till the end.

Makes me wonder how much the support staff get paid. I bet it's shit money.

 

[jetset]

I don't think Wim or Chad will let this one go - let's see how long it takes for them to arrive and sort it out.

But the impression one gets is that the left hand frequently has no idea what the right is doing at FL and they perhaps need to look at their internal communications, smarten up their admin and above all brief and train the Support people.

Whilst Wim does a great fire-fighting job on the main forums I also think they should consider some sort of "hot" button that will put players in contact with a supervisor or manager with more discretion and power of decision than the average CSR. They could save themselves a lot of bad message board mileage if they did that because it could resolve these disputes early on.

 

[amandajm]

Oh Vipopps or Vim or whoever will sort it no doubt.

Not good enough though, not after 2 years of this silliness and more. I Feel the entire point re what the poster is saying, many give up the war of attrition.

The majority do I bet.

In fact left hand or right hand Jet this has become thier M O it seems.

Once is bad, twice is sad, thrice is a liberty. This is the same type complaint over and over again.

 

[Adde]

Thank you all for your support and your comments!

At the end I almost started to think I was wrong. It's like brainwashing from their part, where they repeat their mantra time after time and soon enough they have the player broken down.

They don't have the slightest clue of what time and physical effort it takes for a non-professional writer, in a foreign lanuage (I'm from Sweden), to present my case to them in a rhetorical way, and then have to do it all over again when beeing fired at with a nonsense reply, and then again, and so forth.

I honestly think this is an outspoken policy at FL (and other casinos as well), that they either directly or indirectly encourages their staff to go on like this. I wouldn't be surprised if they got provision for every dollar they can save from being paid out to the player.

What do you think?

And the really sad part is that they will get away with it. For every dollar they lose, they gain 50 by acting like no good crooks. Actually, even most crooks have higher moral standards than that.

I really think this is an important discussion that Casinomeister should pay more attention to in his newsletter. (Maybe he already has, I'm rather new to this site.)

I am very eager to hear from Fortune Lounge management, to hear how you can sanction and justify the psychological terror that was fired at me by several members of your staff.

Andreas

 

[Stanford]

I popped over just to see what was up with FL. A player emailed me claiming that FL was applying the 20% rule to all bonuses - not just the weekly. Clear that was not what we were told.

It sounds like FL had very stable bonus terms for a long time and now everyone is confused. Not just players but also casinon service representitives.

Looking at their site BTW, I didn't see the non carryover provision in the Ts & Cs. Maybe they need to do a rewrite.

FL, look forward to you showing up and helping us out.

Stanford

PS: It has been suggested that you ignore balances under a dollar which is a really good idea. But if you don't, could you tell us which Casinos allow 1 cent and 5 cent wagers and what games those are. I had a CSR suggest I download all of them and go through them one at a time. A long task with dial up connections.

 

[Adde]

UPDATE (April 1, 2004): Nothing has happened. I have emailed the link to this post to Fortune Lounge, but nothing has happened.

If nothing happens soon I see no other option than to "Pitch a Bitch", but I don't want to steal any precious beer drinking time from Mr Bailey , I'm sure he's got a quite busy agenda anyway. Beside, it's friggin Fortune Lounge, a (once) respected player in the industry, you think it should be possible to solve this without pitching a bitch, don't you?

Andreas

 

[Adde]

UPDATE (April 1, 2004, late at night):

---------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: <[email protected]>
CC: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Subject: Having major problems (April 1, 2004)
Date: den 1 april 2004 19:58

(April 1, 2004)

I am having major problems with Platinum Play, and I get no help whatsoever by exchanging emails with support. I have posted about my experience at Casinomeister forum (see link below), and if nothing happens I see no other way than to hunt down every single casino watch dog site and warn new players from playing at Fortune Lounge.

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/forums/threads/dear-fortune-lounge-management.3983/?t=3983

How long will it take for you to sort this out and do the right thing?

Sorry if I sound harsh. I'm not a bad person, but this has gotten on my nerves and I can't help myself.

Also, I apologize in advance if you receive this email several times. It's not my intention to spam you, but if you don't respond to me I have to assume you have not read the email, and thus I send it again. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards,

Andreas

---------------------------------------------------------

From: Support (Fortune Lounge)
To: Andreas
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 10:23 PM
Subject: Having major problems (April 1, 2004)

Hi Andreas,

We are sorry to hear of your disillusionment with our casino and as much as I understand your disappointment with the situation,you must surely also realize that we are a casino that operates with rules,terms and conditions like any other.Our wagering requirements are not only fair but are also met by thousands of players who gamble with us regularly.There is nothing underhanded about the way we operate.

We are available 24/7 for your gaming convenience so please do not hesitate to contact us should the need ever arise.

Warmest Regards
Kofi
Support Desk

---------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Having major problems (April 1, 2004)
Date: den 1 april 2004 22:59

Kofi,

Yes, you have rules, terms and conditions, nothing wrong with that, but how can you possibly say that you have acted correctly in this case? Facts are:

BY DIRECT QUESTION FROM ME, YOUR SUPPORT STAFF TOLD ME BY EMAIL (SEE CORRESPONDENCE) THAT I HAD TO WAGER ACCORDING TO THE TERMS THAT WAS IN EFFECT WHEN I GOT THE BONUS.

And you know what?

I DID REACH THE WAGERING REQUIREMENT ACCORDING TO THOSE "OLD" TERMS WHEN I CASHED IN.

And Kofi, since you seem to have missed some key point in my story, you know what happened then? I'll tell you:

YOU CHOSE TO PULL A TRICK AND APPLY THE NEW TERMS TO MY BONUS WHEN I TRIED TO CASH-IN.

Kofi, does this behaviour rhyme well with what you are saying to me, "There is nothing underhanded about the way we operate"?

Regards,

Andreas

 

[Adde]

UPDATE (April 2, 2004)

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
To: Andreas
Subject: RE: Having major problems (April 1, 2004)
Date: den 2 april 2004 00:03

Hi Andreas,

Thank you for your e-mail!

The new wagering requirements were brought out on the 14 March 2004, that is
the same day you signed up with the casino.

You refer to correspondence in which you were told different wagering
requirements. I have looked at the records concerning your account and can
not find any reference to you being advised this.

When you sign up an account you agree that you have read the terms and
conditions and understand them. It is the casinos policy to work wagering
requirements as they are on day of cashin.

Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.
Happy Gaming and may ladyluck be watching over you!!!

Kind Regards
Rudolf
Customer Service Consultant

---------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Support (Fortune Lounge)" <[email protected]>
CC: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Having major problems (April 1, 2004)
Date: den 2 april 2004 00:24

(cc: [email protected])

Rudolf,

You state that the new terms were brought out on march 14, but I was told by your support that they were brought out on march 15. Furthermore, I signed up on march 14, and the terms that were on your website at that time, they were very much the "old" terms. And yes, I read them very carefully since I know how easy it is to be fooled by them.

You say you "can not find any reference to you being advised this [different wagering requirements]". If you had taken your time to read the complete correspondence between me and Fortune Lounge, you should have found this email I got from your support. They wrote (for full email, see post at Casinomeister):

"I have looked into your account and saw that you made your purchase on the
02/14, the new wagering requirement came into effect on the 02/15. As a
result you can still use Blackjack as well as Video poker for wagering this
purchase.
[...]
Kind regards,
Kingdom
Customer Care Consultant"

If the information I was given by this Customer Care Consultant called Kingdom, now that you claim the new terms came in effect as of 02/14, if that information was incorrect, the you should go bully this guy Kingdom, and NOT ME! Should I not trust what I am being told by your staff?

Now, please, tell me what I have done wrong.

Regards,

Andreas Hellstrom

---------------------------------------------------------

From: "Support (PlatinumPlay)" <[email protected]>
To: andreas
Subject: FW: Having major problems
Date: den 2 april 2004 07:45

Hi Andreas

Thank you for your e-mail.

The old offer at the casino was a 250% match on a $20 purchase. When
reviewing your account you received a 200% match on $50, which is the new
offer.

As you received the new offer you are subject to the new terms of this
promotion. If your account was credited with the old promotion you would
have fallen under the old terms, this is not the case.

Seeing that you received the new offer, I regret to inform you that the new
terms needs to be met.

Regards

Marius
Casino Pitboss

---------------------------------------------------------

From: Andreas
To: "Support (PlatinumPlay)" <[email protected]>
CC: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Having major problems
Date: den 2 april 2004 11:25

(cc: [email protected])

Hi Marius,

I got to your website on march 14, saw the 200% match bonus on $50, read the terms carefully (before AND after depositing the same day) and the terms on your website DID include 100% blackjack and video poker. It seems that you have made an internal decision to change the terms for the promotion, but you have not changed them on your website. What other terms can I trust than those you show at your website?

Furthermore, when asking your support what terms was in effect for my bonus, I made it clear that I would not take the bonus if the "old" terms were not applied to my bonus ("If not, I have to ask you to remove my bonus so I can cashout my deposit.").

If I was subject to the "new" terms, why did your Customer Care Consultant tell me the opposite?

It appears to me that you either have not read the full email conversation between me and support, or you don't beleive it to be true. Marius, have you read my first email to support, and have you read the reply from your Customer Care Consultant called Kingdom? If you have, how can you possibly say that you are right and I am wrong?

You see, Marius, I won't let this go, ever. You screwed up, not me. You pay the consequences, not me!

Regards,

Andreas Hellstrom

 

[fortunelounge]

Hi Adde

Please mail me your account details in order for me to investigate the issue and get back to you.

[email protected]

Regards

VP Operations
Fortune Lounge

 

[caruso]

"It is the casinos policy to work wagering requirements as they are on day of cashin."

Not according to the FL CSRs I've spoken to on the matter, nor any other reputable casino. The terms that apply are those in place at the time of the deposit.

 

[cipher]

It is absolutely absurd for any Casino to interpret wagering requirements as of the date of cash-in. If that's the case why would anyone even bother to read the terms and conditions when they initially sign-up. Its' hard for me to imagine that this type of behavior is being condoned and/or promulgated by WIM.

Cipher

 

[Clayman]

"It is the casinos policy to work wagering requirements as they are on day of cashin."

Not according to the FL CSRs I've spoken to on the matter, nor any other reputable casino. The terms that apply are those in place at the time of the deposit.

Does any casino actually explicitly state in their T&C that the terms that apply are those in place at time of deposit?

Maybe if they did, CSR's might actually read them and understand them. I'm sure they like having a loophole through which they hope they can screw 9 out of 10 customers. They KNOW their websites weren't updated with the new terms simultaneously with these terms going into effect. What did they expect would happen?

Guess I'll be going thru this mess 5 separate times when I get around to playing off the money I have outstanding from the good-old-days a month or so ago when FL seemed to know what they were doing.

The other thing that bothers me is that it seems that now they (sometimes? always?) remove bonuses and winnings completely if one fails to meet WR. I'm too lazy to check their terms today but do they address this?

Do they still offer weekly bonuses like they used to? - don't think I've had one in a month.

 

[caruso]

I doubt anywhere has that actually in writing. It's just a generally tacit understanding.

They do remove bonuses - not winnings - if terms aren't fully met. Personally, I don't have any problem with that since I never stick to minimum terms. I can imagine that it might cause some consternation to the $2 blackjack babes who daren't over-wager a cent but can't be bothered to track back through six hundred pages of Playcheck.

 

[jetset]

"It is the casinos policy to work wagering requirements as they are on day of cashin."

Not according to the FL CSRs I've spoken to on the matter, nor any other reputable casino. The terms that apply are those in place at the time of the deposit.

I agree. Having a policy like this means the player is accepting some unknown future condition, and that is ridiculous.

 

[jetset]

Wim, you need to get on over to WOL too - FL is taking flak and the complaints need sorting out.

 

[Clayman]

I can imagine that it might cause some consternation to the $2 blackjack babes who daren't over-wager a cent but can't be bothered to track back through six hundred pages of Playcheck.

It's never happened to me since I actually know when I'm $2 over WR's. Thinking more of the people who get screwed because they are short, perhaps due to mis-understanding carry-over requirements or make an honest mistake and are a little short. Also, since it's simple enough to just phone and ask if you have wagered enough before cashing-out, it would save both CSR's and players alot of extra time, if players knew it would just be reversed if a mistake was made.

Why do you think casinos don't bother putting this "tacit understanding" in writing. Wouldn't it save alot of grief? Add a sentence today, save 5000 phone calls tomorrow.

 

[Adde]

Wim (VP of Operations at FL) is currently working things out to solve this for me. I'll post a note when case is finally closed.

Adde

 

[DealerBusts]

So many CSR seem give out misleading information that I'm convinced its done on purpose. It seems to happen more regularly at less reputatable casinos and it wouldn't surprised me if they are actually briefed by the manager to screw the player.

 

[jpm]

In my opinion, when I make a deposit at a casino and receive some type of bonus, then I am making a contract with them, the terms of which are fixed at the time I make my purchase and thus enter into the contract. The casino is affirming this contract when they give me the bonus money (we have an offer and acceptance), and at that point, both parties are bound by the conditions of the contract (the w/r). The casino can't go back and retroactively change the terms of the contract at cash-in time as this would be a breach of the contract.

Unfortunately, your recourse is quite limited, since what jurisdiction would oversee this issue? Sometimes the public forums are the only recourse, since the CSRs can be quite bullheaded. ALWAYS save a copy of the T&C the moment you deposit! Or, in your case, get an email outlining that the T&C as you understand them are correct and apply to your bonus.

I'm sure Wim will straighten this out for you now that he has the info.

 

[GrandMaster]

It is absolutely absurd for any Casino to interpret wagering requirements as of the date of cash-in. If that's the case why would anyone even bother to read the terms and conditions when they initially sign-up. Its' hard for me to imagine that this type of behavior is being condoned and/or promulgated by WIM.

Cipher

I totally agree. This is the sort of thing that would be struck out by any court as an unfair contractul term, since the casino could change the contract unilaterally to the player's disadvantage.

If the T&C at the time of cash-in applied, what would stop the casino from increasing the WR to 1000(D+B), with only play on an obscure slot machine with 50% average return counting, and demanding that you hand over the deeds to your house and your first born child if you want to cash-in?

The new T&C seem to be too confusing for the customer service. I have been told that only 20% of play on BJ counts, when, in fact, the situation is that BJ can only be used to satify 20% of the WR for the sign-up bonus. My question was not even about the sign-up bonus, so this rule did not apply anyway. I see a "training issue" here.

 

[Clayman]

I see a "training issue" here.

I'm not one for conspiracies, generally speaking, but I almost tend to agree with DealerBusts that it seems almost intentional. Or, it's a really big "training issue" that they have had ample time to address by now. How hard would it be to give each CSR a little list of when this and that changed and how to handle it?

Do you (or anyone) still get those weekly bonuses? Do you get any? I wish I could try a few even with the increased WR's which aren't that big of a deal to me. Since they've increased the WR's, I haven't received a single bonus anyway.

 

[jpm]

me neither

 

[jetset]

"In my opinion, when I make a deposit at a casino and receive some type of bonus, then I am making a contract with them, the terms of which are fixed at the time I make my purchase and thus enter into the contract. The casino is affirming this contract when they give me the bonus money (we have an offer and acceptance), and at that point, both parties are bound by the conditions of the contract (the w/r). The casino can't go back and retroactively change the terms of the contract at cash-in time as this would be a breach of the contract."

Exactly JPM - well put. Regarding recourse, I'm hoping that the eCOGRA initiative (at least as far as casinos holding their seal are concerned) will improve the recourse aspect so long neglected by the jurisdictions and even the IGC. Now that they have seals awarded and an online dispute structure in place it's delivery time for them.

Grand Master, I agree that any Support training shortcomings should by now have been overcome. Without defending inefficiency, I know from experience in setting up a Support centre that it is only as good as the quality of the CSRs that you recruit (and sometimes paying over market rate is an option that gets you better people and less expense in the end) And of course how well you train 'em and keep them up to speed and motivated.

That said, the whole bonusing thing has become way more complicated since I was on the operational side of this industry in its early years, so it must be a nightmare keeping FAQ and briefing files up to date, ensuring correct interpretation and keeping training up to scratch. I think all of us acknowledge that T&C's have now become so complex that one almost needs a legal eagle to interpret them!

Maybe its time for the operators to get back to basics...

 

[GrandMaster]

Do you (or anyone) still get those weekly bonuses? Do you get any? I wish I could try a few even with the increased WR's which aren't that big of a deal to me. Since they've increased the WR's, I haven't received a single bonus anyway.

I got several this week, mostly just 10%. At this level the WR starts to matter. If you get a 10% bonus on $200, you have to wager $200 first, then 10x(D+B)=$2200, $2400 in total. The only way to play it is to use autoplay and hope for the best. You only expect to keep 50-60% of the bonus.

 

[Clayman]

I got several this week, mostly just 10%. At this level the WR starts to matter. If you get a 10% bonus on $200, you have to wager $200 first, then 10x(D+B)=$2200, $2400 in total. The only way to play it is to use autoplay and hope for the best. You only expect to keep 50-60% of the bonus.

If I could get the 10% every week on the 5 casinos I have that still use the old single-deck, I'd happily grind out my $88/week for less than a day's work.

 

[GrandMaster]

If I could get the 10% every week on the 5 casinos I have that still use the old single-deck, I'd happily grind out my $88/week for less than a day's work.

What is you bet size? I assume that $88/week is the expected value of $100 bonus on $1000 deposit, which requires $12000 in total wagering. Flat betting $4/hand, $12000 is about a full day's work. The standard deviation is about $250, so there is still a pretty high chance of losing. I would rather use autoplay even if the expected value is smaller.

 

[Clayman]

What is you bet size? I assume that $88/week is the expected value of $100 bonus on $1000 deposit, which requires $12000 in total wagering. Flat betting $4/hand, $12000 is about a full day's work. The standard deviation is about $250, so there is still a pretty high chance of losing.

Yes, exactly.

And, with the autoplay, despite the higher HA, you could play $2/hand and play twice as many hands and still only lose your own money about the same 36% of the time. Can't argue with that.

I'm just old-fashioned, I guess, and, despite rumors to the contrary, I do vary my bet from time to time.

It sort of seems to me alot of bonuses these days, be they 10%, 20% or whatever, often seem to come in at that 50-60% EV range you mentioned. Sure is a change from the not so distant past.

Would it be possible to have both single-deck and Viper versions installed simultaneously? I would assume so if installed in different directories.

 

[GrandMaster]

Would it be possible to have both single-deck and Viper versions installed simultaneously? I would assume so if installed in different directories.

The installation of Viper will uninstall the old version. You may be able to keep the old one, if you set up different user accounts and install Viper in another user account, this depends on where the registry entries are, but you may need two copies of the operating system.

Btw, you should consider yourself lucky that you did not get the promo. I have played at two casinos and I am already down $100 in real money.

 

[Clayman]

Btw, you should consider yourself lucky that you did not get the promo.

LOL - you'll get it back.

I currently have 2 different versions of Fortune Room installed in different directories. I think the more recent version is a double-deck game and maybe not the full Viper. Anyway, I had to do it because the old Fortune Room e-cash guy had no provision for Neteller. So I purchase chips thru the new version, play under the old version, and cash-out under the new version. Same user account of course.

 

[GrandMaster]

LOL - you'll get it back.

I currently have 2 different versions of Fortune Room installed in different directories. I think the more recent version is a double-deck game and maybe not the full Viper. Anyway, I had to do it because the old Fortune Room e-cash guy had no provision for Neteller. So I purchase chips thru the new version, play under the old version, and cash-out under the new version. Same user account of course.

You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

 

[Clayman]

You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

Thanks for the tip - I hadn't thought of that.

Sorry for your bad session. I'm way overdue for one - I expect it'll be a doozy when it happens.

 

[ftg]

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

This is a 1 in 59 event. So you have been very lucky before.

I have had not up a single unit in every session the recent 2 months, playing Vegas Strip BJ in Viper. Always down down down. For most sessions, I was down at least 20-40+ for playing a merely ~200 hands for each session and then I stopped. That's why I mentioned I highly suspect MG's BJ.

 

[ftg]

I'm playing Vegas Strip BJ. In about 250 actions, I'm now down 40 units. I feel frustrated. I'll update here when I finished my session.

(Due to the bad results recently, I did double check my strategy card with Wiz web site and make sure it's 100% correct before I started playing.)

 

[Stanford]

What's Up FL?

FL,

I have been watching this thread for your response. Anything new?

As I recall the questions are:

1. Do you apply bonus terms retroactivly by using day of cashin rather than day of deposit.

2. What are you doing about your customer service who seem to not understand the difference in terms between your sign up and your weekly promotions. That is, 20% rule on blackjack/Jacks or Better only applies to the sign up, not the ongoing promotions.

3. The non carryover provision is not in the Ts&Cs of your promotion. And while I have read it relates to all the casinos you process for, it is still a little disconcerting.

4. There is a suggestion that you treat all balances under a $1 as zero so that a small error by the player doesn't cost him his entire bonus. That is because it isn't apparant where odd cents can be wagered and the customer service reps are not familiar enough with the games to advise the player. Under 25 cents would be fine as well.

I wanted to recap because I thought they might be getting lost in the thread.

Again thank you for being available to the players to make sure all is well and again congratulations on being awarded the ECOGRA seal for excellence and fairness.

Stanford

 

[HateMG]

It's my first post here and I'd like to share my FL and MG experience.
I played a lot in MG casinos and of course lost plenty. One time I liked the software and thought it was a fair one but not anymore and I'll try to explain why. Recently playing in one of FL casinos I got a hand in Atlantic City BJ which was reminiscent of movie "Maverick" you probably remember when a guy got 4 of a kind in Poker another one had straight flush and Maverick pulled a Royal flush at the same time. Of course poker is different from BJ but the odds of that happening is probably in the same vicinity.
My first 2 cards were 2 7's against dealer seven. Naturally I split them and got the next 2 cards 7's as well, split them again for total of 4 hands. 2 of the hands I have doubled after the second card, on third hand I got one more 7 and a four. On the last hand I got a 10 on the second card. My doubled hands were for total of 20 each. And you guessed it right the dealer turned 3 7's.
I understand there are 32 7's in 8 decks of cards but c'mon 8 7's in 14 cards dealt. There is no doubt in my mind that was a set hand. It's like telling you don't play with us you stupid moron.
There is a game called Triple Sevens Blackjack in which there is mandatory $1 side bet and it pays bonuses for player having 7's dealt. The house edge for that bet is close to 38% less 3.45% for every $10,000 in the progressive meter. The probability for 3 unsuited 7's(which btw pays 250 to 1), according to Wizardsofodds is 0.00038 which means in average you'll get 38 3 unsuited 7's dealt for every 100,000 hands. In my case I got 4 first cards 7's and the dealer got 3. The odds, I think, should be of the chart.
Playing AC BJ a lot I noticed that for approximately every 200 hands or so you'll get a hand where you split your cards 3 times (not necessary the 7's) and in most cases you would lose all of them.
I don't trust MG anymore and needless to say I don't play there anymore.

 

[kniepm]

This is a breakthrough in efficiency. Instead of examining the results of millions of hands to determine if software is fair, we'll just take limited anecdotal evidence and extrapolate from there.

So by the same token, if I happen am dealt two black jacks in a row at any particular casino, that casino must be "rigged" in my favor?

Wake up people. If the cards always fell "the way they're supposed to," this gambling wouldn't get the adrenaline and endorphines pumping, it would be as boring as an evening home with the wife.

It has been my experience that improbable shit happens; when it does, that does not necessarily mean the laws of nature and/or probability have been tampered with. If the dealer pulling triple sevens when you have upped your original bet six-fold is too much for you, go back to playing Yahtzee with your Aunt Flo.

 

[HateMG]

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
It has been my experience that improbable shit happens; when it does, that does not necessarily mean the laws of nature and/or probability have been tampered with. If the dealer pulling triple sevens when you have upped your original bet six-fold is too much for you, go back to playing Yahtzee with your Aunt Flo.
________________________________________________________________

Look I'm not talking about how much I bet or how much I lost. I'm talking about fairness. I want to play, win or lose, if it's at least a random and a fair game. I've been playing for the last 8 months, in some casinos I've wagered 50000-150000 and the more I played the more I got convinced that MG is not always random. You can feel that some hands are predetermined regardless whether it's in your or dealer favor. That hand was just the last straw and it's not just dealer triple sevens as you said, which happens btw suspiciously too often for supposedly random game but I had 5 7's in 11 cards as well first 4 of which are 4oak and all of them happened to be 7's. If you played in land casinos you would probably see 3 splits once in a blue moon, in MG AC BJ that "improbable shit happens" quite too often for that game to be fair.

 

[jpm]

I only wish he had a screen shot of that game at the end. It would have been something to see. Though I still don't believe that the regular MG blackjack game plays fair, I've felt better about some of the other permutations (like vegas strip, etc) that come in the viper version.

That being said, I gotta tell you what happened to me at a land based casino one day. I was playing $5 bj at a super 7s table. That's similar to the triple 7s game on MG, except its not progressive. Its a $1 side bet, non mandatory and pays $3 for one 7, $50 for 2 unsuited, $100 for 2 suited, $500 for 3 unsuited, $5000 for 3 suited. I play the $5 table for this one because I'm playing the 7s game and not looking to make anything on the BJ part. In one 8 deck shoe, playing in the #3 or 4 seat of a full table, I pulled 2 unsuited 7s for $50 each, one suite 7s for $100, and one unsuited 3 - 7's for $500 (and won the hand against a dealer 20 too, woohoo). There may have been one more unsuited pair in there as well, can't recall. I just remember walking away after that shoe with a pocket full of black chips after the eye in the sky reviewed the table thoroughly. It was an incredible run and who knows what the odds on that were, probably close to what you just experienced. So it does happen in land based play as well as online.

I still won't play that european version on MG though. I just don't trust it one little bit.

 

[thesmacker]

I've played both at B and M casinos and Online. What have I learned? That no matter what, crazy, beyond the odds events happen at the same rate at both types of casinos. I beleive people are more suspect of online casinos because they probably are able to play 5-10 times as many hands in the same amount time compared to a B&M casino. Because of this players see crazy events happen at a more frequent pace at online casinos and come to the conclusion that they are rigged. Now I understand that there are types of online casino software that are obviously rigged but microgaming I feel is not one of them. I have played over 500 000 hands at MG and have a about a 99.85% return. This includes play at their single deck European and Vegas Strip. I know it often feels funny but I think most of it is because people go into online casinos with a pessimistic attitude and when odd events occur you are more prone to notice them. Just my 2 cents.
Cheers

 

[GrandMaster]

It's my first post here and I'd like to share my FL and MG experience.
I played a lot in MG casinos and of course lost plenty. One time I liked the software and thought it was a fair one but not anymore and I'll try to explain why. Recently playing in one of FL casinos I got a hand in Atlantic City BJ which was reminiscent of movie "Maverick" you probably remember when a guy got 4 of a kind in Poker another one had straight flush and Maverick pulled a Royal flush at the same time. Of course poker is different from BJ but the odds of that happening is probably in the same vicinity.
My first 2 cards were 2 7's against dealer seven. Naturally I split them and got the next 2 cards 7's as well, split them again for total of 4 hands. 2 of the hands I have doubled after the second card, on third hand I got one more 7 and a four. On the last hand I got a 10 on the second card. My doubled hands were for total of 20 each. And you guessed it right the dealer turned 3 7's.
I understand there are 32 7's in 8 decks of cards but c'mon 8 7's in 14 cards dealt. There is no doubt in my mind that was a set hand. It's like telling you don't play with us you stupid moron.
There is a game called Triple Sevens Blackjack in which there is mandatory $1 side bet and it pays bonuses for player having 7's dealt. The house edge for that bet is close to 38% less 3.45% for every $10,000 in the progressive meter. The probability for 3 unsuited 7's(which btw pays 250 to 1), according to Wizardsofodds is 0.00038 which means in average you'll get 38 3 unsuited 7's dealt for every 100,000 hands. In my case I got 4 first cards 7's and the dealer got 3. The odds, I think, should be of the chart.
Playing AC BJ a lot I noticed that for approximately every 200 hands or so you'll get a hand where you split your cards 3 times (not necessary the 7's) and in most cases you would lose all of them.
I don't trust MG anymore and needless to say I don't play there anymore.

The odds of there being eight 7's in the top 14 cards in an 8 deck shoe is just over 1 in a million, so it really is a rare event. However, rare events do happen, they just should not occur too frequently. For example, I just got the 10 and 7 of spades against the dealer's 3 of hearts. The probability of this happening is about 1 in 140000. If you are implying that the casino is cheating, I am sure they could do it in more subtle ways. Btw, how many hands have you had and how many of them did you split 3 times? 1 in 200 is way too often, if you can substantiate it, then we have definite evidence of cheating.

I had a hand where I split 3 times, doubled down, got 20 or 21 on each hand, the dealer got 18, so I won 8 times my original bet. I once saw a player get five 8's in a row in a land based casino. He kept splitting and splitting, the dealer had to stop him when he wanted to split the 4th time.

 

[Clayman]

the more I played the more I got convinced that MG is not always random.

The best advice I can give you, or anyone, is to record all your hands with W's, L's, T's & BJ's. All the more so when you feel they're cheating you.

And even though you say you will no longer play MG, or whatever, it's a good habit to get into because I can guarantee you that you will feel the same way again.

Had you recorded the thousands of hands you've already played, I bet you dollars to doughnuts you'd be be looking at this hand as the interesting oddity it is rather than evidence of non-fairness.

Good luck to you in your future gaming.

 

[HateMG]

Thesmacker,

You're right that we play a lot more hands in online casinos, but you observed 5-6 hands at a time playing with other players and believe me I spent a lot of time playing in B&M and I never saw anything as weird as what's going on in MG BJ and I'm not talking about just that particular hand.
When I play in crypto or Boss I don't feel like being cheated. Yes the dealer gets crazy 5's and 6's to 16 and 15 sometimes, but they bust as often and you get quite a few brakes in your favor as well. When I play in MG and I'm on winning streak, in most cases, I know I would get a 5 to my 16, OTOH 9 out of 10 times I would get a 10 to my 12, or lose my double down right after the losing streak started. Another example If I play with an average bet of $10-$15 for a while and than increase it to $50-$100 it would eat me alive in a NY minute giving me 1 win out of 10-12 hands and that happens time after time after time.
Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'll go with what I see and what I feel.

.

 

[GrandMaster]

You can use the flash casino to deposit, too, and it still has the single deck version I believe. Of course, it is not as fast as the download version.

I had my worst BJ session in a long time. Here are the stats: 1250 hands, down 85 units, probability 0.017.

This week started bad and continued worse. I made a small profit at one casino (even without a bonus), a small loss at another, and a big loss at 4 others. Here are my full stats from the Fortune Lounge group: 7000 hands at $2, gambling loss $340=170 units. I got $140 bonus, so I only lost $200 in real money. The expected loss is about 25 units, so I am down 145 units from the expected value. The probability of doing this badly or worse is about 6.5%, or 1 in 16, so I am not complaining about cheating but it hurts. I was hoping that they would send me some better promos seeing how much I lost, but I just got another bunch of 10% deals. I will try it once more and if it does not improve, I will quit. I cannot afford to lose $200 a week. On the plus side I already have enough point for silver VIP status.

 

[hhcfreebie]

Maybe I'm just paranoid but I'll go with what I see and what I feel.

.

Actually, there is nothing wrong with that. It's your money, your game.
Clayman suggests you to record every hand and I'd suggest the same. You might find it's hard to believe at this moment but your feeling can be deceiving. I'd trust my record much more than my "feeling". Maybe I just don't have any "gambler's instinct" whatsoever.
Last week I had terrible luck with two cryptologic casinos. I even had a record-breaking 9 straight loose on BJ. Both events have less than 1% chance of happening. Guess what? I bounce back all the money and more in the following days.
Maybe you will have better luck next time. Once again, it's your call.

 

[Stanford]

Will FL return to this thread?

I keep revisiting this thread to see if FL is responding. It is very troublesome that they have not addressed at least the issue regarding bonus terms changing retroactivly. Is anyone else concerned and is it likely that they will review this thread?

Stanford

 

[m249a]

Why would they respond? Its their casino, their rules. I'm sure they know from experience that eventually this will all blow over and they can continue to do whatever they want to whomever they want. I have seen this post stray from the original question, then the entire original question was broken down and re-asked. Still no response. Maybe they are too busy. Or most likely, its blatent comtempt. After all we are faceless, nothing more then a paychek to these people. Even with as much power and influnce the meister has, at the end of the day its a numbers game.

 

[Adde]

As for my original post, Wim (Fortune Lounges VP) was very helpful in solving it. The reason he gave for me being treated with the "run around" was many new people at support staff. No excuse perhaps, but I have to give Wim credit for being nothing but a class act when he finally got his hands on this matter! When all transactions have finally been sorted out I will make a post to close my case, so to speak.