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Fortune Affiliates Retroactive Terms

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Boy, I wish someone from Fortune Lounge would address the breach of contract Fortune Affiliates comitted with its affiliates.

I guess affiliates should be seen but not heard.

The changes in T&C are perfectly acceptable - it is your right to do so. Applying these changes to previously entered contracts is - well - in most places in this world it's a criminal act.

Yet you do this to your affiliates without any type of consultation, communication or discussion.

It is not a show of good character.
 

What Dom said. And I don't want to hear the flimsy excuse that Fortune Affiliates is a separate entity and losing money. And don't even mention the word "partner" in there until you are willing to admit that we were bent over and you are willing to address the problem.
 
Y'know. I'm guilty of not remembering what this is all about. I know Simmo! and Spear explained this to me - but I live in Bierland - so I forgot :D

How about spelling out exactly what was made retroactive and how FA addressed this issue. Didn't someone rag on them in Miami?
 
dominique said:
Boy, I wish someone from Fortune Lounge would address the breach of contract Fortune Affiliates comitted with its affiliates.
I've been away so might have missed it, but what did Fortune Affiliates do?
fortunelounge said:
Again, we have always followed the philosophy of offering our valued players the benefit of the doubt, as we will in this case also.
Was this the philosophy in place when you decided upon a policy of simply removing the bonus funds from cash-ins if a player made the slightest error (say wagering $1 too little) instead of returning the cash-in to the casino balance for wagering to be completed, as all reputable casinos do? I think you might finally have abandoned the policy, but it was a very nasty (and no doubt lucrative) trick.
 
I will leave it to Fortune Lounge to spell out in very precise terms their relationship with Fortune Affiliates - and then let them describe what happened.

But to put it in player terms, it is similar to promising you a bonus, later changing their terms and conditions and applying it to all your past play retroactively.

I'd also like to ask Vegas Partner Lounge why they are also implementing this policy - at the same time - yet they deny being in concert.
 
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Well, we also have Partner Logic and Wager Junction jumping on board that train.

I have thought long and hard about this - this industry does not need to increase it's stigma of being seedy and such. That is a bad image - and especially in the States we need to be sqeaky clean if we are ever going to achieve regulation. Which we will soon have a good chance of doing if we don't blow it.

I just cannot sit still and watch this behavior - which is nothing short of criminal by any interpretation of the law.

I propose Fortune et al. change these new imposed T&Cs to where they are not retroacive and therefor legal.

I have always been one to support Fortune regarding all kinds of issues, for years. Just to make clear that I like the folks at Fortune Affiliates and definitely have no axe to grind.

This recent development is just way out of line. And admit it - it hasn't helped your revenues one bit so far. You are losing some valuable affiliates - and you are surely not gaining any sympathies among players either.
 
Hi

We have been in discussion with Fortune Affiliates regarding the postings of Dominique and Spear Master. We understand that Fortune Affiliates have already responded to similar posts on other bulletin boards. Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved.

We will continue to make use of this thread to reply to the original post by Adamruns.

Regards,
Jeremy
 
QUOTE: Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved.UNQUOTE

"Tabled, discussed and resolved?" Perhaps the word "unilaterally" should be inserted somewhere in there if the reports I have heard are correct.

I don't work in the affiliate sector, but I am told by several people I respect who do that there was very little if any consultation here.

The tone of that response suggests that Fortune Affiliates is entirely seperate from Fortune Lounge, which in terms of top management control I am not entirely certain is correct.
 
fortunelounge said:
Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved.
Jeremy

Yes, I am sure that's true. Tabled, discussed and resolved amongst each other.

I did have the opportunity to speak with Fortune Affiliates in Miami. There was nothing really discussed - I was told that there was a monetary necessity for this, there was no other way. When I suggested that there may be ways to do this without cutting marketing, I was asked what I would suggest as an alternative. I would have been all too happy to make a suggestion, but since I had no facts and figures that wasn't possible.

Regarding the legality of this - I got no reply. Because we all know what it is.

Resolved? Hardly. I did file a complaint with the IGC about this. Perhaps the issue can still be tabled, discussed and resolved. I would be very interested in tabling, discussing and resolving it. I would like to be able to recommend Fortune Affiliates to other affiliates as I have done for so many years. I feel badly telling affiliates to stay away from Fortune because they do not honor their contracts. I feel like I am disloyal to a group of people I have grown to like over the years.

I know that the folks at Fortune Affiliates are good people and they try to run a good program. They have made such enormous progress, have some of the best stats in the biz, and their support has been great.

How disappointing to find them in a criminal act.

Yes, I would very much love to resolve this. Until such a time, with a heavy heart, I have to caution: Stay away from Fortune. Fortune does not honor it's contracts.
 
Affy stuff ain't exactly my thing, but:

spearmaster said:
But to put it in player terms, it is similar to promising you a bonus, later changing their terms and conditions and applying it to all your past play retroactively.

Did they cut the commission, from, say, 30% to 20%, and apply it retrospectively, so you effectively have to "earn it back"?
 
That is truly nice to hear, adamruns. :)

Now if only T&Cs with affiliates could also be taken as binding and sincere...

Did they cut the commission, from, say, 30% to 20%, and apply it retrospectively, so you effectively have to "earn it back"?

No. It used to be that affiliates went to look at earning statistics at Fortune and see a mix of winning and losing players and it was a good thing to see. As aff, you want to see a nice mix, you want to see your players win.

In this industry, "if the players ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."

Since Fortune holds a lot of individual casinos, winnings and losses would be nicely spread out and affiliates could happily advertise all of the casinos, teach their players as much about winning as possible, watch a good percentage of them win, and still take home a paycheck. All was well.

If a casino had a big winner the affiliate would not make money there in that month, but s/he would still be making money at other casinos. So - it's a small price to pay for having happy players return to your website and be happy and loyal with you.

But no more. The rules were changed so that now if there is one big winner at one Fortune casino it wipes out all income from all casinos. The affiliate gets no paycheck that month at all.

Perhaps it is not immediately visible how this affects players - but it does. Maybe not the sophisticated players who have discovered message boards that truly look out for them, but the majority of players who go through affiliate sites are now in a much worse position. Now the affiliate isn't all that interested anymore in teaching how to win - it's too costly. No one is going to lose all their income voluntarily. Affiliates who allow themselves to depend on Fortune will now fear for their livelihood and not encourage smart play.

Good for the casinos, bad for players, bad for affiliates.
 
Jeremy -

With all due respect, the stink is unbearable. Nothing was tabled or resolved, none of my recommendations - which were very reasonable by the way - were taken up, no changes or further announcements have been made, so I will simply assume that FA - and FL - choose to ignore the issue and hope it will go away.

Let me put it very bluntly - it will not go away, and if a reasonable solution is not found, it will become a very, very big problem.
 
As an affiliate myself, it would be morally wrong for me to recommend a casino to players who I know cannot be trusted to hold an agreement. Plus it p*ss*s me off to think of the time and effort spent testing, researching and chatting to them (although it was a free pizza to be fair) in the first instance only to have them treat me this way :(

Cheers

Simmo!
 
I cannot believe the comment :

' Fortune Affiliates regard this matter as having been tabled, discussed and resolved. '

Unfortunately it was not tabled, discussed and resolved with your partners - the affiliates. Time will obviously be the factor to see whether by making these changes you haven't actually fallen upon your own petard.

The fact that you go back on an legal agreement with your affiliates without even consulting them beforehand, speaks volumes.
 
adamruns said:
I just hope that Fortune Lounge allows everyone in my situation to do what they have allowed me to do.

Very doubtful Adamruns! Your problem got alot of exposure here, so they naturally have to put out the small fires before they become larger. Everyone else who's fending for himself probably hasn't had the same outcome as you. I'd bet my life on that.
 
I see that Jeremy has been and gone - and chosen to take the silent route.

Needless to say - what they can do to affiliates, they can do to players. Regardless of what you see in the T&Cs, if they decide to change their mind, their decision is "final" even if you performed according to the rules.

I will allow them another chance to address the issue - or else I will spell it out very clearly with a warning to all people who think that Fortune will perform according to the terms and conditions they themselves laid out.

The staff at Fortunelounge has always done their absolute best to keep our players as happy as possible, and have over the years built a reputation of fairness and interest in our customers.
I further note that this is due in large part to affiliates who work their asses off to see that you get players, and that you take care of them.

This "reputation" is about to be spoiled big-time if you do not take urgent action to redress the breach of your own terms and conditions and promises to affiliates who have faithfully served you in the past - and have also defended you in these forums. We did not set the rules - you did. We played by these rules - but you broke them.

I urge you not to ignore this warning.
 
At this point all the action I have taken is to inform the IGC (and their lawyer who will handle this is back at work on Monday). I have not removed the casinos who are in breach from my Casino Webmaster Program page (which ranks #3 on Google). I did add my comments to the listing. Fortune wasn't listed, but I will update and add them asap, next week sometime.

I did post about it in the announcement section there -
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
and link to that from the webmaster page.

Now, other than that I haven't taken any action because I still count on the basic honesty and business sense of Fortune. I hope that they will negotiate with the IGC if not with us affiliates. I will overlook being snubbed now and hope for this to be worked out between Fortune and the industry watchdog.

But I will not hesitate to ask players for help if it comes to that. Affiliates have helped players get paid for years, I am sure players will give some of the support back when needed.
 
The fact that Fortune is ignoring us here and added to this we are being ignored on CAP by the FA members there, only reinforces my belief that they do not consider affiliates as partners.

Therefore if we can be treated with a lack of respect by FA, what is there to say that the casinos and poker rooms which make up FA's portfolio won't start treating their players in the same way as they are now treating their partners/affiliates.
 
Simmo! said:
As an affiliate myself, it would be morally wrong for me to recommend a casino to players who I know cannot be trusted to hold an agreement.

I understood there to have a been maybe a retroactive application of a downgraded affiliate commission. Dominique's reply showed this to be not the case - all they've done is made it harder for you to make money, correct? This isn't a breach of agreement, just an unpleasant turn of events.

All this is a little hard on Fortune Lounge. When players suffer disadvanageous rule changes, as long as they're not applied retroactively, we just bite the bullet and move on. Why does the same not apply here? All it means is you'll be making less money.
 
caruso said:
I understood there to have a been maybe a retroactive application of a downgraded affiliate commission. Dominique's reply showed this to be not the case - all they've done is made it harder for you to make money, correct? This isn't a breach of agreement, just an unpleasant turn of events.

All this is a little hard on Fortune Lounge. When players suffer disadvanageous rule changes, as long as they're not applied retroactively, we just bite the bullet and move on. Why does the same not apply here? All it means is you'll be making less money.


No thats not quite right Caruso. They have basically said that a winner at one of their casinos will now have a negative impact across your players in the whole group. So if you are up at 6, and a big winner hits casino 7, you could get totally wiped out.

Now thats perfectly reasonable - if they want to do that its fine so long as an affiliate understands that, they know what they are getting into. However, they have stated this affects *all* players you sent since year dot, *previous* to the change. So effectively, you sent them players on certain terms, only to have them changed when its too late to do anything about it.

Its like, say a casino says "play out 1000, well give you 1,000" to a player. You sign up, play the money through, go to ask for the bonus then they say "oh no we changed our mind since then".
 
Simmo! said:
Its like, say a casino says "play out 1000, well give you 1,000" to a player. You sign up, play the money through, go to ask for the bonus then they say "oh no we changed our mind since then".

That is exactly what it is like.

Moreover, it is like you are hired by a company to help increase their customer base. When you were hired you signed a contract with the company. The company stated they would pay you such and such a percentage of the profits made from customers you bring in.

Now, you get no salary, no insurance, no retirement, nothing. You are responsible for building the store (site) on your time and with your resources. You are responsible for paying for advertising. You are responsible for looking out for the customers you do bring in because you never know when your employer may not fill his obligations. And you only get paid when this customer spends money at this place. It's a dream employee for any company!!! Completely free, the company only pays when they make a profit. There are literally thousands of websites out there that were built by affiliates who never saw one penny for their trouble. It take a lot of hard work and devotion, and you have to work 7 days a week for like 10 hours a day to even start making money. Most affiliates just build what amounts to free billboards for the casinos.

You spend years bringing in customers and now you have quite a few of them regularly patronizing this company. After years of working to establish enough accounts to be able to make money for your work (and you worked FOR FREE all that time, plus paid for advertising, just to achieve the number of customers needed to make money in the future).

Now the company decides you are becoming expensive, you actually have enough customers so they feel the payments to you.

What to do? Change the way you get paid. Make you gamble your entire income every month.

You have worked FOR FREE or peanuts for years to achieve the promised income, and now they bend you over and.........
 
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I can see where most everyone (the disgruntled) are coming from, but I am unsure whether or not the term "retroactive " (which fans the flames of hell) is applicable in this situation.

The change may really suck for some, but it just may well be just the way things go in business-land.

When aff programs change a policy overall, and apply it to all delivered players, I'm not sure if the term "retroactive" is really the term that should be used here.

"Retroactive" in my opinion is when let's say, I increase my rates for xyzcasino - beginning next month, and they also owe me the difference for the past six months they've been on board. That's retroactive. Anyone would go ballistic if I were to do this.

"Retroactive" is also when joe player signs up at xyzcasino on 1 June, and the terms state BJ is allowed for bonus play. He cashes out his winnings on the 30th (after playing BJ) and the casino says sorry, we changed our rules yesterday - no BJ - here's your deposit back. That's retroactive.

But here we may only be seeing a change of policy that covers all players that an affiliate delivers. Try to follow me here - don't let your eyeballs glaze over.

Let's say I'm xyzcasino affiliate manager, and I decide to raise the affiliate payout from 25% to 35% next month for ALL delivered players - to include any additional revenue generated from player accounts that have been delivered in the past. In a sense that is retroactive since it applies to earlier delivered players, but it's really only a change in policy.

This has been going on for years as affiliate programs have become quite competitive. When I first signed up at Intercasino seven years ago, I was given 10% - now it's 35% - and the 35% applies to the older accounts as well. When I entered into a contract with Intercasino/Partnerlogic years ago, we agreed on 10%. They've made changes over the years adjusting this and I never saw this as breaking a contract.

Now we have FA lumping all the signed up players into one big happy group. Well that may suck for some, but I'm not sure it's all that evil it's spelled out to be.

If there are certain casinos that are not producing revenue for an affiliate, the affiliate has a choice to discontinue promoting that casino. Simple as that. There is a trickle down effect here. The casinos that are not profitable begin to get dropped and the more profitable ones get more player action from happy affiliates.

Another thing, I don't see this as dissing anyone (affiliates and what-not). Dom seems to be under the impression that affiliates are the red-headed step-child of the industry - but I don't think they are. I think good affs are pursued and wined and dined more than in any other industry. Do you think Amazon.com invites their affs for Caribbean cruises? :D

And the last time I checked, amazon.com was still shelling out 5% revenue for a $10.99 book - whoopdee friggin' do!

Anyone who owns their own business is responsible for their own wellbeing - health insurance, vacation, overtime. That's life in a free market society. I wouldn't have it any other way.

But back to the issue at hand. Yeah, I can see where a lot of webmasters feel this sucks. But I don't see it as being a scandalous retroactive move.

Disclaimer - I'm not an affiliate of FA or VPL and they didn't pay me to say that :D
 
Retroactive = affecting players you brought in under different terms.

What is done now or in the future is irrelevant, I can just stop sending players.

But I can't take back the ones I sent that they now have and refuse to pay for as agreed.
 
casinomeister said:
But back to the issue at hand. Yeah, I can see where a lot of webmasters feel this sucks. But I don't see it as being a scandalous retroactive move.

I have to disgaree CM, but whether the term "retroactive" is relevant or not, the fact remains that they did one or all of the following:

a) Deceived affiliates
b) Acted unethically
c) Went back on an existing business arrangement
d) Lied

Question Meister: if one of your casinos promised you $x,000 for a banner on CM for 3 months, then said after the event they weren't going to pay that much after all, would you accept that no questions asked on the basis they throw a good party? (you dont have to answer that by the way, i know the answer :D )

Cheers,

Simmo!

Dominique said:
But I can't take back the ones I sent that they now have and refuse to pay for as agreed.

Excellently put :thumbsup:
 
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Ehh - I knew I'd get flack as soon as I opened my mouth :D

Simmo! said:
I have to disgaree CM, but whether the term "retroactive" is relevant or not,

Buuut, this is a term that has been used a lot when this comes up in discussion. I'm just not sure if it's an appropriate term since whenever there is a policy change - it usually covers all players regardless whether they were sent in yesterday or five years ago.

But again, perhaps we're getting caught up in semantics.

Simmo! said:
a) Deceived affiliates
b) Acted unethically
c) Went back on an existing business arrangement
d) Lied

Do you mean deceived as in you didn't know thay would make a policy change in the future or did they come up with a BS scheme later and tried to pitch it as something else? I'm still working with pretty much the info I have from Spear and you all. I've spoken with David S. and VPL as well.

Simmo! said:
Question Meister: if one of your casinos promised you $x,000 for a banner on CM for 3 months, then said after the event they weren't going to pay that much after all, would you accept that no questions asked on the basis they throw a good party? (you dont have to answer that by the way, i know the answer
That doesn't apply too well since most sponsors pay up front. If there was disatisfaction, we'd talk about it and work something out - so yeah there would be plenty of questions on what's up.

Let me be clear here, I'm not choosing sides - I'm trying to hash some of these things out to get a better understanding on what's going on. When I first heard "retroactive!" while I was at the GIGSE, I thought oh hell, wtf's going on, and then I forgot about it. I'm also trying to point out that there are examples of these sorts of things in the past, but these sorts of things happen as positives (increasing of revenue %) instead of negatives.

Are there any affiliates who like the change??
 
casinomeister said:
Ehh - I knew I'd get flack as soon as I opened my mouth :D

Quite right too :D


casinomeister said:
Do you mean deceived as in you didn't know thay would make a policy change in the future or did they come up with a BS scheme later and tried to pitch it as something else? I'm still working with pretty much the info I have from Spear and you all. I've spoken with David S. and VPL as well.

A bit of both, but mainly the former. I can't remember which of the groups it was, but one posted inferring that they'd had discussions with affiliates and that the affiliates they'd spoken to thought it was a good idea! Probably wasn't me, Dom or Ted...we're blaming you ;)

casinomeister said:
That doesn't apply too well since most sponsors pay up front. If there was disatisfaction, we'd talk about it and work something out - so yeah there would be plenty of questions on what's up.

I figured that was the case, but hypothetically, I'm sure we'd agree that its generally unacceptable. Goes back to my other example which is perhaps more pertinent:

Simmo said:
"Like, say a casino says "play out 1000, well give you 1,000" to a player. You sign up, play the money through, go to ask for the bonus then they say "oh no we changed our mind since then".

Yes?



casinomeister said:
Let me be clear here, I'm not choosing sides

...yet ;)

Seriously though, and this isn't a personal dig CM, there are "gateway" people in this industry who are well-known on either side. These are ultimately the people who gain most respect. People like myself have yet to achieve that position and consequently can only make ripples. But where ethics are concerned, it's important IMHO, that people state what they think is right. I appreciate that - and again, I'm not getting at you 'cos i know you will say what you feel - money plays a part in all this, but people have to look long-term at the repercussions this type of thing can have on the industry, not just fianancially but in terms of profile.

I had a chat on the phone with FA and stated my position very clearly, and why i have removed all their properties from my sites, but I'm just one of many who needs to be doing this to make the message clear, that we won't be treated like this. It's not sour grapes, although perhaps tinged with the bittersweet taste thereof, but an issue of trust. If I don't make a stand myself, I can't complain when they, or others following suit, do it again.

casinomeister said:
I'm trying to hash some of these things out to get a better understanding on what's going on. When I first heard "retroactive!" while I was at the GIGSE, I thought oh hell, wtf's going on, and then I forgot about it. I'm also trying to point out that there are examples of these sorts of things in the past, but these sorts of things happen as positives (increasing of revenue %) instead of negatives.

No-one's likely to complain in ANY agreement if one party decides they have an unfair advantage and looks to make amends. After all, balancing the expectations of each party fairly is standard business practice. Correction, *should* be standard business practice.

casinomeister said:
Are there any affiliates who like the change??

:lolup: Not met one yet.


Just to re-iterate, I (and most others) have no problem with them lumping casinos together as a group. I'd simply choose the best IMHO and promote that, if it was worthy. What we have a problem with, as Dom points out, is applying it to players we've already sent and cannot have any influence over anymore. That surely deserves the term "retroactive" ?
 
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Question to all....

Example: Before the change, you sent a player to Royal Vegas and this player only played for fun, then stopped. It seemed like he was never going to sign up for whatever reason. So, Fortune jumps in and cross promotes that player and actually convinces him to sign up at 7 Sultans. Now, although you never promoted 7 Sultans, you still earned money for that player. This was never their obligation, yet they did it. If that player lost, you were not affected. So for us it was a win/win situation - not for fortune.

Now they have lumped the casinos, so you can still earn from the rest even if you do not promote the others, but will have to bear the cost if the player wins.

Before everybody jumps up and down saying that you never asked for this, I have spoken to Fortune and you can request them to switch the cross promotion off. ( I wouldn't - I would rather take my chances at earning extra - which happens most of the time)

So, if I need to carry the "burden" of a player that won for a month, I will do that, since they still not have any carry over.

Fortune have always treated their affiliates well and because of this change I am not about to jump up and down screaming blue murder.

So, at the end of the day it is pretty simple.. either think about how well they have treated us in the past and think about how this REALLY affects us - or stop promoting them and move on.

just my 2 cents....

PS. I am an affiliate of FL but they also did not pay me to say this :D
 
peralis said:
Fortune have always treated their affiliates well and because of this change I am not about to jump up and down screaming blue murder.

Peralis. I take your points regarding x-promotion, but surely if i send a customer to buy a U2 CD at Amazon and they buy Britney's latest instead, I should get my % as whichever way you look at it, I gave Amazon a new customer, and without me they wouldn't be shopping there.

Regarding the Quote above, how can you say this when you've just had your agreement ripped up and changed so you earn less without your consent? You're not telling us something IMHO. Once bitten , go back for more??

If someone's been nice to me in the past, then does me up like a kipper, I want to learn from that, not just accept it 'cos "i like them". Sorry if that sounds condescending, it's not meant to be but i can't think of an alternative way to phrase it :D

peralis said:
or stop promoting them and move on.

And put a big banner on my site that says "You can shaft me, i like it!" (no its not a gay site btw). If we don't express our feelings on this, we'll get it over and over and over again. If we make a stand and get our point over, you'll benefit too while you continue to promote them who shaft! I really think you ought to think about your stance on this Peralis. Really I do.
 
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Peralis, this is not the point.

If I tell you that I will pay you $5 for every beer you serve me, and when it comes to paying I decide the beer was too warm and I pay you only $3 per beer, you will be pissed. I already drank the beer, so I don't care.

The quality of the beer, whether there were pretzels involved and how many times I went to the bathroom has nothing to do with it. It also doesn't matter wether the beer cost you $2 or $4 - the only relevant point is that I did not pay what I said I would and you are screwed.
 
dominique said:
Peralis, this is not the point.

If I tell you that I will pay you $5 for every beer you serve me, and when it comes to paying I decide the beer was too warm and I pay you only $3 per beer, you will be pissed. I already drank the beer, so I don't care.

The quality of the beer, whether there were pretzels involved and how many times I went to the bathroom has nothing to do with it. It also doesn't matter wether the beer cost you $2 or $4 - the only relevant point is that I did not pay what I said I would and you are screwed.

:confused:

It is nothing like that.. they did not decrease the %....

to take your analogy...

If I say I will give you $5 for every beer you serve me... actually that does not work...

Here:
I send somebody to a place that sells beer and I get a % of every beer sold to that person.. however, they also have a slot machine there. I never sent the person there to play teh slot machine.. I sent him there for the beer.. So, now the place says.. well, since you sent him here, you will get a % of what he plays as well..

2 scenarios..
1. You could stick to your deal where you only get the money for the beer.
2. You can earn more if that person drinks beer and loses at the slot machine. If he wins, you bear a % of that loss as well.. You may be lucky and he wins.. takes his winnings and buys a bar round...
 
Peralis,

The ONLY point is that before I sent the players I was told I would be paid in a certain fashion.

Now that they have the players they refuse to do it.

Every lawyer will look at this and this only.

Whether it was smart to offer me this contract is not the point.

There is no problem with them changing when they realize what they are doing isn't working for them - just not retroactively!!!

If you want or need to change things retroactively, you sit your partners down and talk all the options through and you get PERMISSION to change the rules in the middle of the game.

Everything else is breach of contract and it is illegal here and in Germany and in South Africa and anyplace I can think of.
 
Simmo! said:
Peralis. I take your points regarding x-promotion, but surely if i send a customer to buy a U2 CD at Amazon and they buy Britney's latest instead, I should get my % as whichever way you look at it, I gave Amazon a new customer, and without me they wouldn't be shopping there.

No.. that example would be like them taking advantage of a different promotion at the casino I sent them to. x-promotion would be more like amazon saying "we do not have the title you want, however you could try at this and this music store.. They could give you a share on that or not...

Simmo! said:
Regarding the Quote above, how can you say this when you've just had your agreement ripped up and changed so you earn less without your consent? You're not telling us something IMHO. Once bitten , go back for more??

If someone's been nice to me in the past, then does me up like a kipper, I want to learn from that, not just accept it 'cos "i like them". Sorry if that sounds condescending, it's not meant to be but i can't think of an alternative way to phrase it :D

I did not say that they were "nice".. I said that they treat you well. Always have and I am sure always will.


Simmo! said:
And put a big banner on my site that says "You can shaft me, i like it!" (no its not a gay site btw). If we don't express our feelings on this, we'll get it over and over and over again. If we make a stand and get our point over, you'll benefit too while you continue to promote them who shaft! I really think you ought to think about your stance on this Peralis. Really I do.

That is up to every single person to decide for themselves. All I am saying is that we profited a lot from them in the past because of things they were not obligated to do.. one of the conditions was not cross marketing when anybody signed up.. at least I sincerely doubt that .. now they are saying that if you want to take advantage of the x-marketing.. then you will share the costs..
 
peralis said:
And now I am done with this .. just wanted to try and add a flipside to the situation..

Cheers

No harm in that peralis and its good to see two sides to any debate. If you're happy to accept the way they treated you then of course that's your decision.


Meister: I think this should be back in a forum accessible to everyone. After all, whether players are interested in affiliate issues or not is fairly irrelevant. If a business i had a relationship was treating other relationships with other businesses in this manner, I'd at least want to be aware of it.
 
peralis said:
now they are saying that if you want to take advantage of the x-marketing.. then you will share the costs..

No, they never said that at all. They explained nothing. They said this is the new deal, we have to do it because we are in financial trouble. Therefor, you have to take it.

I never heard a thing about cross promotion from any fortune person I spoke to. Not a word. No choices. No asking for input. Only the new rules were presented, with absolutely no discussion of choices, alternatives or reasons.

Meister: I think this should be back in a forum accessible to everyone. After all, whether players are interested in affiliate issues or not is fairly irrelevant. If a business i had a relationship was treating other relationships with other businesses in this manner, I'd at least want to be aware of it.

I agree. I want players to know that Fortune is in financial trouble bad enough to have to stop paying the agreed money to affiliates. It is how Fortune explained why they breached contract. It is of concern to players. That is why I posted there and not here.
 
Meister: I think this should be back in a forum accessible to everyone. After all, whether players are interested in affiliate issues or not is fairly irrelevant. If a business i had a relationship was treating other relationships with other businesses in this manner, I'd at least want to be aware of it.

I am inclined to agree. I think it is very important that players know how affiliates are treated and vice versa.

Peralis, I respect your position on this issue, but I do disagree with you nonetheless.

Fortune Affiliates did not consult with us over these changes to the T & C's, there was no dialogue. We were told to like it or lump it.

To me this is a breakdown of a successful partnership and there is a trust issue at stake here. If they can make these changes now, what is there to stop them reducing overall comission percentage in a few months time, or worse?
 
Webzcas said:
To me this is a breakdown of a successful partnership and there is a trust issue at stake here. If they can make these changes now, what is there to stop them reducing overall comission percentage in a few months time, or worse?

And what's worse, it has signaled to all the other programs that it is ok to breach contract with affiliates. Already 3 programs have followed suit.

This is likely the single most important issue ever faced in this industry.

Are online gambling institutions bound by contracts or not?
 
dominique said:
No, they never said that at all. They explained nothing. They said this is the new deal, we have to do it because we are in financial trouble. Therefor, you have to take it..
I don't think they are in financial trouble. They may have said that it wasn't a financially sound thing for them to continue with the way it was structured before - but financial trouble? I would have to disagree there.

dominique said:
I never heard a thing about cross promotion from any fortune person I spoke to. Not a word. No choices. No asking for input. Only the new rules were presented, with absolutely no discussion of choices, alternatives or reasons...
They may have indeed contacted a few affiliates for advice - but you may not have known about it. Just a thought.

dominique said:
I want players to know that Fortune is in financial trouble bad enough to have to stop paying the agreed money to affiliates. It is how Fortune explained why they breached contract. It is of concern to players. That is why I posted there and not here.
Are you sure this is how they explained it? I don't think anyone would admit that they were in financial trouble.

Meister: I think this should be back in a forum accessible to everyone. After all, whether players are interested in affiliate issues or not is fairly irrelevant. If a business i had a relationship was treating other relationships with other businesses in this manner, I'd at least want to be aware of it.
I placed the thread here mainly so that it would stay focused and not go off track with comments from the peanut gallery :D

It's viewable by God and everyone else, nothing is hidden from anyone, just we happy few are posting here. But if you really feel I should move it back, then I'll do it. If a few more of you feel this way, then fine.
 
I quote from their forum at CAP, and this is also what I was told in conversations with David and Anrit:

 
casinomeister said:
It's viewable by God and everyone else, nothing is hidden from anyone, just we happy few are posting here. But if you really feel I should move it back, then I'll do it. If a few more of you feel this way, then fine.

Up to you CM. But my view is that there is a moral issue here also. Should affiliates be telling players that they can trust a company to honour an agreement where the affiliate has proof to the contrary?
 
By the way, I am not really blaming Fortune Affiliates for this. From what I deduce from the above statement by Fortune Affiliates, they are getting the shaft from FL.

This is what makes me think so:

This has been hurting us for many months already and is not dependant on client performance but rather a formula that leaves us with almost nothing at the end. If this was a 1 month case we would not have changed the formula yet, but the reality is we changed the formula to create a sustainable business.

A formula that leaves them with almost nothing in the end. So it was either FL allowing more marketing funds, or FA breaching contract with affiliates.

I understand FA was between a rock and a hard place. It is FL who is ultimately responsible for this mess.

And that is why players have a right to know. Did FL cause this because they are also in financial trouble? I don't think so really, but it certainly is possible.

Otherwise they just could care less about sticking by their contracts. Because they can get away with it. And so can all other online gambling businesses - the precedent has been set.

Sit back, do nothing and watch the avalanche. It has already started - Vegas Partners, Partnerlogic and Wager Junction have also breached contract.
 
It's viewable by God and everyone else, nothing is hidden from anyone, just we happy few are posting here. But if you really feel I should move it back, then I'll do it. If a few more of you feel this way, then fine.

It's your forum Bryan so it's your call. But, this forum is very popular and it would be interesting to get some feedback from players as well as affiliates, as this does concern them, maybe not directly, but along the chain it does. If Fortune Affiliates can change their T & C's without dialogue, if this goes unchallenged, what is to stop them doing the same again in the future? Furthermore, if they can treat their partners like this, who is to say down the line they won't do the same to their customers the players.
 
What Dom said is correct.

They said "financial trouble" - repeatedly, to boot. Obviously very well-rehearsed.

As for contacting a "few" affiliates - they did not make a contract with a "few" affiliates, they made a contract with each and every individual affiliate.

They 500% said "financial trouble".

Casinomeister, you have now been exposed to the BS arguments by both parties - you have heard exactly the same shit I have heard for a month, and you are now being snowballed by these programs even though you are not an affiliate.

In short - you are now no longer a partner as far as they are concerned, because they have to present the same arguments to you without acknowledging the fact that they:

* Breached their agreement with affiliates
* Are NOT in financial trouble
* Are NOT in partnership with affiliates

This is a well-rehearsed sham that you are now being exposed to.
 
I realize I'm setting myself up for a beating, here, but I'd like to ask a few questions...

After a discussion with FA, it is my understanding that the changes being implemented are being done so because the FA program is unable to acheive profitability. With this in mind, I'd like to make some points, as well as ask some questions. I am by no means taking sides on the issues, so please don't jump to conclusions as to my views on the overall situation.

What I have been reading within this thread (as well as similar threads on other sites) is quite a bit of innuendo that FL is in financial trouble. I'd like to understand how the fact that the FA program (in its old terms) is not profitable equates to financial troubles? It is my understanding that as a result of a poorly-written earlier FA agreement, FA is not profitable and if continued, FA would suffer losses. There is a HUGE difference between the affiliate program suffering losses as opposed to FL being in financial distress. To insinuate this to players is grossly unfair, IMO.

Now, remembering I am not taking sides on this matter, I would like to ask of those most vocal, if they were in the shoes of FA, knowing that the old agreement would most certainly create losses for the company, what you feel would be the best remedy? I'd like to further assert that the old agreement is just that...old. Times have changed and while affiliates continue to enjoy the higher commissions, the situation has changed for FA/FL. Higher costs all the way around are involved, yet affiliates have not (until now) been asked to bear the burden of these costs (gawd, I know I'm stepping on shaky ground with this comment). So again, I'd just like to know how could FA do things in a way that would ensure solvency for the program, yet keep affiliates happy? Clearly it is the old players in question which have the damaging effect on the bottom line. I don't have the answers, but I'm wondering if any of you would.

In the meantime, I would truly like to stress the point that IMO it is absolutely unfair to mislead players into the belief that FL is in financial trouble and that the players can possibly be affected in any way. There is simply no evidence of this (outside of a bit of word-twisting) and I believe it is just this side of slander to make such an assertion.
 
spearmaster said:
Casinomeister, you have now been exposed to the BS arguments by both parties - you have heard exactly the same shit I have heard for a month, and you are now being snowballed by these programs even though you are not an affiliate..
You mean people are BSing me? :D

spearmaster said:
In short - you are now no longer a partner as far as they are concerned, because they have to present the same arguments to you without acknowledging the fact that they:

* Breached their agreement with affiliates
* Are NOT in financial trouble
* Are NOT in partnership with affiliates

This is a well-rehearsed sham that you are now being exposed to..
:what: Eh? I may have lost you there. From what I've read and heard, it seems to me that FA's business model was short sighted and needed to be overhauled. Is it a sham, or a way of restructuring one's business?

As I mentioned earlier to Webcaz, it's a dynamic industry and it should be expected that companies change policies or modify them to ensure that they remain profitable and/or competitive. With this FA situation, I still see this as a change in reporting - and yeah, it sucks for some - but what else is FA supposed to do?

In an ideal situation, it would have been nice to see FA sit down and discus options with their affiliates. But with the environment of the Internet - perhaps this wasn't plausible. I am unsure what type of consultation they dealt with concerning this situation.

greedygirl said:
Now, remembering I am not taking sides on this matter, I would like to ask of those most vocal, if they were in the shoes of FA, knowing that the old agreement would most certainly create losses for the company, what you feel would be the best remedy?
I hear Debbee on this one. I wish I would see more constructive criticism. This is a situation that no one has really offered any solution for. Most of you guys (and gals) know this business, know webmastering, and are problem solvers. So far, unless I missed it, I haven't seen any remedies offered. Faced with FA's problems, what would you have differently.

This works only if you don't think they are BSing everyone :D

I don't want to get into semantics on contracts or retroactivity or breaching this or that. But let's say webmaster X sells ad space to casinos. Casino Y has been on webmaster X's site for a number of years, but over time the webmaster's expenses increase forcing him to re-look at how he's financing the site. He decides to increase rates for all new casinos coming on board and applies this to the older ones too. Wouldn't this sort of be the same situation that your in (as the casino)? Here you have to pay out 20% more for the same adspace. That sucks, but in a dynamic business environment, these things should be expected.

For casino Y, was this a breach of contract or modifying a business model? What would have been fair? Not increasing casino Y's rates? That would have been unrealistic. And of course, Casino Y has the option of bailing out or biting the bullet an pay the increased rates hoping for the best. I

Isn't your situation the same sort of thing? The Aff program has introduced new terms - nothing is breached - just changed.

FA - question: Did you have your legal team look over this change before it was implemented? If so, what is their take on contractual agreements?

Finally, I understand how some of you are upset about this, but you may be making this out to be bigger than it is (OK look-out ~b). Dom mentioned that this may be the biggest thing ever to rock this industry - wasn't the biggest thing to rock it 9/11 and the US reaction? Or the loss of Paypal? Or scumware?! I'm just not convinced that it's as bad as your making it out to be (quick - duck!).

But it looks as though many of you are convinced it is.

endnote: I'm not siding with FA - I'm trying to review this situation as objectively as possible. Please don't confuse objectivity with endorsement or to concur.
 
casinomeister said:
You mean people are BSing me? :D
:what: Eh? I may have lost you there. From what I've read and heard, it seems to me that FA's business model was short sighted and needed to be overhauled. Is it a sham, or a way of restructuring one's business?

As I mentioned earlier to Webcaz, it's a dynamic industry and it should be expected that companies change policies or modify them to ensure that they remain profitable and/or competitive. With this FA situation, I still see this as a change in reporting - and yeah, it sucks for some - but what else is FA supposed to do?

They could have followed Money Mechanic's lead for one. MM have changed their conditions as well, but this only affects new affiliates who sign up and not existing affiliate partners. The prospective new affiliate is made aware of the terms and conditions which cover the program and can then make an informed choice as to whether to join or not. All current existing affiliates will not have these new terms applied.

By making this 'retroactive' change Fortune Affiliates, VPL etc are reneging on an existing agreement which was accepted and entered into between Fortune Affiliates and the Affiliate. Therefore if this is allowed to happen without the likes of Spear, Dominique, Simmo and myself voicing our concerns, who is to say that worse isn't to follow in the future?

It may seem far fetched, but there could come a time in 18months or even nearer whereby affiliate programs, having seen these current changes been implemented unchallenged decide to not pay affiliates for players provided after a certain time scale say 6 months. This could very well happen.


In an ideal situation, it would have been nice to see FA sit down and discus options with their affiliates. But with the environment of the Internet - perhaps this wasn't plausible. I am unsure what type of consultation they dealt with concerning this situation.

Well considering they didn't even take on board Spearmaster's suggestions I doubt very much they bothered to consult with anyone else. A guess on my part, but a guess based on Spearmaster's high profile within the industry.

If anything I feel sorry for the FA RM's, as they have always been very professional, helpfull and easy to reach whenever I have had a query. Unfortunately they are now getting the flack in some cases as they are the first line of contact at FA

I hear Debbee on this one. I wish I would see more constructive criticism. This is a situation that no one has really offered any solution for. Most of you guys (and gals) know this business, know webmastering, and are problem solvers. So far, unless I missed it, I haven't seen any remedies offered. Faced with FA's problems, what would you have differently.

It is quite simple. Without us promoting FA in the past, the players these changes affects would not very likely be playing at FA casinos or poker rooms. We would have directed them elsewhere. Therefore they would be worse off than they are now. This is why these changes in my view are so unfair. If I had known this would have happened six months ago, I would have not referred one player to FA as a result.

endnote: I'm not siding with FA - I'm trying to review this situation as objectively as possible. Please don't confuse objectivity with endorsement or to concur.

That's a given :) - It is good having a platform to air our concerns :)
 
Originally Posted by greedygirl
Now, remembering I am not taking sides on this matter, I would like to ask of those most vocal, if they were in the shoes of FA, knowing that the old agreement would most certainly create losses for the company, what you feel would be the best remedy?

I would positively love to answer that. Unfortunately I am not privvy to any details of their business. You can't suggest solutions if you don't know the problem. I am quite sure this is possible to do without breaking the law though.

casinomeister said:
You mean people are BSing me? :D

:thumbsup:


I still see this as a change in reporting - and yeah, it sucks for some - but what else is FA supposed to do?

No one knows what else they are to do because no one knows what is really going on. Give me some facts and figures and I'll have a crack at it. I know for sure my solution would not be breach of contract, i.e. refusing to pay for players the way the contract with the affiliate provides for. Money mechanic introduced changes - and they managed to reverse the retroactive part of the clause and live happily aver after.

I hear Debbee on this one. I wish I would see more constructive criticism. This is a situation that no one has really offered any solution for. Most of you guys (and gals) know this business, know webmastering, and are problem solvers. So far, unless I missed it, I haven't seen any remedies offered. Faced with FA's problems, what would you have differently.

And again, show me the problem and I can try to find the solution.

Isn't your situation the same sort of thing? The Aff program has introduced new terms - nothing is breached - just changed.

The analogy doesn't hold. We were contracted to deliver a product for a predetermined reimbursement. After we delivered it (no, we can't charge ahead of time like you) we were told we will not be reimbursed as per the contract, but we had to put our earnings on a roulette table before we could collect.

We now have 4 programs in breach of contract. The rest is watching this right here. The minute the complaints quiet they will get busy finding the most profitable way for them to exist and one by one they will change the contracts after the fact. They will just not be bound by normal business law like anyone else on this world.

I would like to be able to trust those I work for - I work for free on the promise that I will get paid if they manage to convert the traffic I send and if they manage to hold on to players.

You guys don't have these problems - it's easy for you to talk.

PS. I have no proof other than the wording I pointed out above and the feeling I got from meetings and mails, but I personally believe strongly that this originates with FL and not FA.
 
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casinomeister said:
The Aff program has introduced new terms - nothing is breached - just changed...And of course, Casino Y has the option of bailing out or biting the bullet an pay the increased rates hoping for the best.

Briefly regarding this statement, I'd dispute that CM. A "change" to a business agreement constitutes an amendement which provides third parties with an option. A "breach" by definition directly conflicts with an existing agreement, in this case with a retroactive effect, that the third party cannot influence in any way, which it clearly has. We are unable to "bail out" regarding players already referred under the previous agreement.

Now onto the issue of solutions. I agree that this would be great, but a) they didn't approach us for solutions to their problem b) we couldn't do that without analysing their expenditure, and they're hardly going to let us do that!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they relatively recently take on new properties and the costs associated therewith? If they are in financial trouble, as they have suggested, why not *drop* properties and save money rather than take on new ones and more costs?

If they had emailed us all explaining the situation and asking for ideas, we probably wouldn't be here discussing this now. The dictatorial nature of the changes speaks volumes about our relationship. As Webzcas points out there may well be other ways, but obviously this one is the easiest option for FA.

What's done is done, and what they say now is unlikely to make a difference, although it would be interesting to hear their reasons for deciding on this course of action, rather than alternatives. They have clearly stated what they think of affiliates simply in the way they have dealt with this. Irresepcetive of the financial implications, we are clearly expendable.

OK here's a solution: FA & VPL give the affiliates back the players - well the email addresses of the players - they referred under the previous agreement so they can recommend alternatives? Yeah...can see that one happening!
 
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