Fruit Frenzy Layout at Doyles...hmmm....

[LooneyTunez]

Let me start by saying that I've been playing RTG for many years and Fruit Frenzy has been a long time favorite. I know this slot like the back of my hand, and the screenshot below reveals something that has me VERY concerned! On "reel 2", there are 2 "pear" symbols (one on top of the other)...this is NOT NORMAL...let me repeat, NOT NORMAL. A glitch maybe? Logged out, and back into "Fun Mode", and the beginning state of the reels shows the "pears" inline with each other too. Guess it's not a glitch, and something is awry here.

This is my second deposit with Doyles, with my first being a couple months ago, and when I made my first deposit, the reels did not have this layout. I haven't contacted support yet, as I'd like to get some thoughts here first. Anybody else want to confirm my findings, before I pursue this "issue" any further?

 

[hippo925]

good observation. i'm guessing that it is just a glitch, but i'm actually not sure that it would matter. Most likely, every slot we play online has some sort of dynamic weighting and the symbols we see are really just for entertainment. If you bet 1.00 and win 2.40, the software chooses a layout of symbols that will equal 2.40. I know a lot of people actually think the reels randomly land in a certain position and THEN rewards 2.40, but there is too much evidence to the contrary. The only online slot that works the way most people think is the one on the wizard of odds site (he programmed it so that the program picks FIVE random numbers, one for EACH independent reel.)

Most online slots uses the RNG just to determine the amount won or lost, then a graphical representation is shown. That is the idea behind virtual reels. Keep in mind, it's still random (though not like most people think.) Really, we are relying on the honestly and integrity of the sofware provider to set the RNG to actual reel strips versus arbitrary paybacks.

But still looking forward to what you find out! (maybe they just have their slots set to a payback that other casinos don't use... therefore the different "layout" representation?)

 

[De Beuker]

Funny you post about this now, I've noticed this too, but not at Doyles, so I think this is a general change?
Can't remember which RTG I saw this, but it was not Doyles, as I have no account there.

 

[KasinoKing]

Yes, I noticed this too a few weeks back. I thought it was very strange as I could not recall seeing two same symbols next to each other on this slot before - though I don't play RTG very much, so I wasn't certain.
I was playing at BuzzLuck.

Unlike Hippo, I believe the reel stops are random and the win is generated afterwards, and also that the reel strips are a fixed pattern for each different return % setting. My guess therefore is that the "double pear" only appears on the game set to minimum returns.

It would be VERY interesting if everyone who plays at any RTG casino could log in & take a look to see what they have...

KK

 

[nisosbar]

There should be the symbol for three balloons beneath the pear on the second reel. That's what it looks like on Aladdin's Gold.

 

[DogBoy001]

Let me start by saying that I've been playing RTG for many years and Fruit Frenzy has been a long time favorite. I know this slot like the back of my hand, and the screenshot below reveals something that has me VERY concerned! On "reel 2", there are 2 "pear" symbols (one on top of the other)...this is NOT NORMAL...let me repeat, NOT NORMAL. A glitch maybe? Logged out, and back into "Fun Mode", and the beginning state of the reels shows the "pears" inline with each other too. Guess it's not a glitch, and something is awry here.

This is my second deposit with Doyles, with my first being a couple months ago, and when I made my first deposit, the reels did not have this layout. I haven't contacted support yet, as I'd like to get some thoughts here first. Anybody else want to confirm my findings, before I pursue this "issue" any further?

Heya,

This is caused by a human malfunction when designing the RTP variations for the game.

The reels are in a fixed order, with random stop locations called for and then displayed. Following that display a win evaluation runs through and sees whether there have been scatter or line wins (as KK says it's not the other way round)

There is 1 variation of the 3 (though I can't disclose which) that has the following reel strip order:

Pos.: Reel 2
1 Pear
2 Balloons
3 Ticket
4 "Frenzy"
... (skipped listing the middle section)
37 Balloons
38 Plum
39 Banana
40 Pear

As you can see Position 1 and Position 40 (the start and end of the reel strip order) both have a Pear

This means that if the random stop position result for reel 2 is position 40 it will display:

Position 39 = Banana
Position 40 = Pear
Position 1 = Pear

As per what you see in the screenshot.

Typically (unless it's meant to be a grouped symbol) the symbols at the top and bottom of the reel will be different.

Woooof

 

[silcnlayc]

This is caused by a human malfunction

Please expand on this with more information wise. All the other stuff you wrote is fine and dandy but what does this statement ACTUALLY mean? That each casino operator can change the reels at THEIR discretion???

.

 

[KasinoKing]

Please expand on this with more information wise. All the other stuff you wrote is fine and dandy but what does this statement ACTUALLY mean? That each casino operator can change the reels at THEIR discretion???

No, I don't think so. The full sentence was:

This is caused by a human malfunction when designing the RTP variations for the game.

i.e. I think he means the person designing the slot at RTG failed to notice he put the same symbol at the start & end of the reel strip.
I can imagine that's quite an easy mistake to make!

As I said before, to me it is extremely likely that this is on the LOWEST payout version, since we know they lower the RTP by adding symbols.
Therefore, players can tell which casinos have a higher return setting by looking for Fruit Frenzy without the side-by-side Pears... at least, until they make the inevitable update...

Disclaimer: I'm guessing & could be wrong. Also, we know different slots can have different RTP's within the same casino.

KK

 

[hippo925]

Heya,

This is caused by a human malfunction when designing the RTP variations for the game.

The reels are in a fixed order, with random stop locations called for and then displayed. Following that display a win evaluation runs through and sees whether there have been scatter or line wins (as KK says it's not the other way round)


Woooof

Always appreciate your posts!

Out of curiousity, do rtg slots generate a random number for each reel like the wizard of odds slot, or just one number? The reason i ask is that if there is just one random number generated for all five reels, doesn't that mean that the random number is just giving out a result, say 0.00 or .50 or $1200, etc?
(this would of course correspond to a visual display of the reel layouts that equal the won amount..... and this would still be random enough for all intensive purposes.)

And as i understand it, you are saying that the software randomly displays the reels, THEN a "win evaluation" looks for scatter or line wins... but whenever there is a glitch on these slots (not specifically rtg), we are always told that the "correct" result was given even though the reels were wrong / glitch / whatever. In other words, if the result is evaluated "after" the reel results, how can these glitches even happen?

Another example, if the software has a glitch where a wild is removed and we are told that the correct results were still given (wild symbol was absent but another symbol was shown that gave the same win.) wouldn't that mean the RNG just picks the result and THEN the matching reel layout is shown?

Thanks again Dogboy!! You always make it so much easier to understand these things and your openness is soooo refreshing. :notworthy

P.S. I agree with KK... since it's a layout that doesn't seem too common, i'm guessing it's the lowest RTP. (but isn't the pear one of the higher paying symbols?)Would be interesting to see when it changes!

 

[vinylweatherman]

No, I don't think so. The full sentence was:

i.e. I think he means the person designing the slot at RTG failed to notice he put the same symbol at the start & end of the reel strip.
I can imagine that's quite an easy mistake to make!

As I said before, to me it is extremely likely that this is on the LOWEST payout version, since we know they lower the RTP by adding symbols.
Therefore, players can tell which casinos have a higher return setting by looking for Fruit Frenzy without the side-by-side Pears... at least, until they make the inevitable update...

Disclaimer: I'm guessing & could be wrong. Also, we know different slots can have different RTP's within the same casino.

KK

There IS a way to check, and that is to compare this reel with that found in a casino who has publically declared it uses the mid range 95%, and has never "tweaked" the games downwards.
The second way is to analyze this variant, and calculate the RTP. WE now know it is the variant with repeated pears on stop 40 and 1, which appear together. It is a case of getting the strips for all 5 reels on this variant, and having a go at working out the RTP.
It is not easy, but if we have a variant known to be the 95% one, we can use information from this to work out how much RTP comes from the bonus game, and how much from the base game.

It is highly disappointing that players are FORBIDDEN TO KNOW the RTP of the machine they are playing when this is coupled with the fact that casinos can "tweak" this RTP WITHOUT BREATHING A WORD to customers. The only reason this got noticed was because of the double pear.

This has never been highlighted before, yet was a "human error" in the DESIGN stage. I can speculate that this is the first time casinos have used these variants, and we are seeing the first proof that it is a whole lot easier to have slots changed to a new RTP variant than we were lead to believe in earlier replies from operators etc.

Given the economic climate, it is likely that the change has been from the 95% "standard" version to the approx 93% lower RTP variant. This ties in with loads of posts from players convinced that they just don't seem to get the "playtime" for their money from RTG slots that they used to.

There is no absolute proof, but do we, as players, need this. RTG casinos refuse for the most part to disclose the RTP of their games, we know this RTP can be changed, and now we have evidence that it HAS been changed at casinos where we see Fruit Frenzy displaying this double pear on stop 40/01. I doubt casinos would go to all this trouble to change the RTP on just this one slot, given how we have been told it takes 6 months, and has to be requested, and agreed, through RTG - I believe it fair to assume that any casino that has done this has requested changes to a package of slots, and without evidence to the contrary, I would assume the changes to be to a lower RTP.
We, as players, should bear this in mind when depositing, and assessing the value of a bonus (20x WR is a far worse deal if the RTP has been lowered).

MGS casinos in general refuse to disclose the RTP of the games, and those that DO publish only give a range, such as 95% - 96%. What we DO know though, is that once released, the RTP never changes again, and if MGS casinos want to put the squeeze on us, they have to do it OPENLY, perhaps by increasing the WR on bonuses, banning certain games, or offering less "free" money altogether.

A few years ago saw the dissection of many MGS slots, and extraction of their RTP. This task could at least be done ONCE per slot, and gave answers that were appropriate for all MGS casinos. With RTG, we have to look at THREE variants for each slot, and calculate the RTP three times.
There are some RTG slots simple enough to calculate exact mathematical RTP values for using the "slot simulator". This might catch out those casinos likely to be using a lower RTP than the "standard", and players can judge for themselves whether these casinos have lowered the RTP on more complicated slots too.

As in the case of the double pear, various RTP variants might carry such "markers" that make them easy to tell apart, so it should not be necessary to completely gather the reelstrips from each RTP casino to tell which RTP variant is being used.

 

[KasinoKing]

The second way is to analyze this variant, and calculate the RTP. WE now know it is the variant with repeated pears on stop 40 and 1, which appear together. It is a case of getting the strips for all 5 reels on this variant, and having a go at working out the RTP.
It is not easy, but if we have a variant known to be the 95% one, we can use information from this to work out how much RTP comes from the bonus game, and how much from the base game.

I have the ability to get the reel strips from RTG slots, but not the motivation...
I wish I did have a good reason to do it, but frankly I have better ways of spending a couple of hours.

KK

 

[Rusty]

I have the ability to get the reel strips from RTG slots, but not the motivation...
I wish I did have a good reason to do it, but frankly I have better ways of spending a couple of hours.

KK

Good reason = fair gaming.
There ya go, you have one now, get on with it.

 

[miranda_x]

i would like to see a strip that points out the position of the symbols on the reels on all slots , it gives you more trust in the slots imo .

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have the ability to get the reel strips from RTG slots, but not the motivation...
I wish I did have a good reason to do it, but frankly I have better ways of spending a couple of hours.

KK

Neither do I, however if I had some spare time I might be tempted. The problem is that the process for RTG is not as simple as it was for MGS (and MGS was not really that simple till someone found out the short cut using the Flash casino).

i would like to see a strip that points out the position of the symbols on the reels on all slots , it gives you more trust in the slots imo .

This was done for many MGS slots in response to a string of moans about the games being tighter. It turned out that, in general, MGS slots were set to about 95% give or take 1%. HOWEVER, there were some startling revelations.
One was that the old video slots had to be WEIGHTED, otherwise under truly random "stops" selection they would pay well over 100%, which clearly they don't. 5 Reel Drive was identified as a weighted video slot, since if all reel positions had equal chance it would pay over 200%
The other, less surprising, was that the Mega Moolah slot paid a mere 88% in the base game, with the rest going towards the 4 progressive jackpots. This is an unusually high contribution to a progressive pool, which with RTG is between 1% and 2% of stake for their Random Jackpots.

RTG have a whole lot more to hide, and don't seem keen to give it up. IF we could know which RTG casinos ran which RTP versions, we could make an INFORMED choice as to where to play, and secondly, the transparency would ensure that RTG operators would be keener to use the mid range, or even high RTP versions, rather than the lower one.
All we know now is that some RTG casinos have indeed altered the RTP on their slot games. Those where the FRuit Frenzy game shows the double pear are those casinos that have changed the RTP from "standard". As yet, we can not be sure which way the change went, but I expect 99% of players believe it was LOWER, and now that we have "busted" them (look for the double pear), they may have to rethink their strategy, which may have relied on players believing the games were the same as always.

 

[DogBoy001]

Always appreciate your posts!

Out of curiousity, do rtg slots generate a random number for each reel like the wizard of odds slot, or just one number? The reason i ask is that if there is just one random number generated for all five reels, doesn't that mean that the random number is just giving out a result, say 0.00 or .50 or $1200, etc?
(this would of course correspond to a visual display of the reel layouts that equal the won amount..... and this would still be random enough for all intensive purposes.)

Heya,

The result that is displayed by each reel is independently determined when the spin is called for.
On a 5 reel slot, this means that 5 random numbers are called for to determine the stop locations of the 5 reels.

Each stop position on any given reel is as likely to hit as any other (there is no weighting of probability)

A win evaluation then determines whether a win has occurred

And as i understand it, you are saying that the software randomly displays the reels, THEN a "win evaluation" looks for scatter or line wins... but whenever there is a glitch on these slots (not specifically rtg), we are always told that the "correct" result was given even though the reels were wrong / glitch / whatever. In other words, if the result is evaluated "after" the reel results, how can these glitches even happen?

The only display "glitch" that I can recall was a recent one relates to Texan Tycoon, and as explained, this was a result of the game calling for multiple multipliers when win lines ran through the same wild symbol, but only the last multiplier called for was being displayed.
The display should have either cycled through the multiple wild values on the symbol animation, or called for and displayed a single multiplier (as designed, and as subsequently rectified)

Another example, if the software has a glitch where a wild is removed and we are told that the correct results were still given (wild symbol was absent but another symbol was shown that gave the same win.) wouldn't that mean the RNG just picks the result and THEN the matching reel layout is shown?

Wild removed? On RTG software? Somehow I think not, and it would certainly stick in my mind if that had ever occurred.

...but isn't the pear one of the higher paying symbols?)Would be interesting to see when it changes!

It won't be changing...it'll be a constant reminder to us to check and ensure that symbol stop 1 and the final symbol stop on any given reel aren't composed of the same symbol (unless it's a grouped symbol game)

Woooof

 

[Rusty]

Neither do I, however if I had some spare time I might be tempted. The problem is that the process for RTG is not as simple as it was for MGS (and MGS was not really that simple till someone found out the short cut using the Flash casino).



This was done for many MGS slots in response to a string of moans about the games being tighter. It turned out that, in general, MGS slots were set to about 95% give or take 1%. HOWEVER, there were some startling revelations.
One was that the old video slots had to be WEIGHTED, otherwise under truly random "stops" selection they would pay well over 100%, which clearly they don't. 5 Reel Drive was identified as a weighted video slot, since if all reel positions had equal chance it would pay over 200%
The other, less surprising, was that the Mega Moolah slot paid a mere 88% in the base game, with the rest going towards the 4 progressive jackpots. This is an unusually high contribution to a progressive pool, which with RTG is between 1% and 2% of stake for their Random Jackpots.

RTG have a whole lot more to hide, and don't seem keen to give it up. IF we could know which RTG casinos ran which RTP versions, we could make an INFORMED choice as to where to play, and secondly, the transparency would ensure that RTG operators would be keener to use the mid range, or even high RTP versions, rather than the lower one.
All we know now is that some RTG casinos have indeed altered the RTP on their slot games. Those where the FRuit Frenzy game shows the double pear are those casinos that have changed the RTP from "standard". As yet, we can not be sure which way the change went, but I expect 99% of players believe it was LOWER, and now that we have "busted" them (look for the double pear), they may have to rethink their strategy, which may have relied on players believing the games were the same as always.

If you believe MG slots have a set RTP and are completely random without probability tables or weighting you are completely deluding yourself I'm afraid.

Essentially all the software works in a very similar same way.

MG Casinos just tend to be more trustworthy than RTG or Rival so obviously MG are more fussy about who gets their hands on their software which is why they are still the best provider.

 

[Rusty]

Each stop position on any given reel is as likely to hit as any other (there is no weighting of probability)

Is it pantomime season already?

Oh yes there is!

 

[hippo925]

dogboy.... thanks again!! some of the examples i used were NOT RTG. In fact, i usually don't hear of too many glitches with RTG outside of the initial Fruit Frenzy bonus thing a while back.

Appreciate your explanations (so easy to understand when you explain them.) Definitely makes me feel like the slots are more random, though like Rusty i always have questions regarding "randomness."

Now if only you would tell us how to differentiate between the different paybacks...... (It would save vinyl and kasinoking a lot of time.....)

 

[DogBoy001]

dogboy.... thanks again!!

No worries!

Now if only you would tell us how to differentiate between the different paybacks...... (It would save vinyl and kasinoking a lot of time.....)

RTP changes are done exactly as they are for the majority of video B&M casino slots, sometimes via adjustments to the reel strips, sometimes by chages to feature probability schedules* and sometimes via a combination of both.

Dynamic or weighted systems - which despite Rusty's disbelief is not how the RTG system functions - are another kettle of fish altogether.

* By feature probability schedule I refer to, for example, pick features where a pick may reveal one of (n) prizes or award (x) free games. Typically this is a weighted probability schedule.
An example is Warlock's Spell, where it's readily apparent that there is a different chance of triggering 8 free games versus 100 free games. This is obviously necessary to balance RTP.
An alternate example would be Loose Caboose, where there is a % chance that the train will continue over row 2, and if so a chance that it moves to row 3. This is coupled with probability schedules relating to extra wilds being revealed, numbers of free games revealed, multipliers...complicated.

The trouble with trying to calculate RTP strictly on reel strips in a random system is if there is a feature component that uses a probability schedule.
It's possible to calculate base game return, but then the feature component becomes an educated guess.

It should be noted that while probability schedules may be used in determining the value of pick prizes or the number of free games awarded, the free games function exactly as per the base game reel spins, in that 5 random numbers are used to determine stops on an unweighted basis on the 5 reels, with subsequent win evaluation.
It's just that usually the feature reel strips are improved over the base game, typically by having a lesser symbol on a given stop location replaced with a wild symbol.

Woooof

 

[silcnlayc]

Caesars last reel

At Jackpot Capital ( a favorite of mine) I noticed in the last few months on Caesars, that the last reel bonus symbol trigger went from appearing going past the window during the spin almost every spin to every other spin.....unlike now, this symbol appears going by every 3-6 spin revolutions.

By this I mean, I would spin and see the symbol almost every time to every other time I spun. Now ( in the last few months) I have to spin almost 4-6 times before this symbol would flash going past the window.

I find this most disturbing trend with RTG's...this subtle change that is done..

.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If you believe MG slots have a set RTP and are completely random without probability tables or weighting you are completely deluding yourself I'm afraid.

Essentially all the software works in a very similar same way.

MG Casinos just tend to be more trustworthy than RTG or Rival so obviously MG are more fussy about who gets their hands on their software which is why they are still the best provider.

An interesting dilema. It seems I am receiving more "bonus bans" of late, yet these are at casinos where I only play SLOTS with the bonus. If the casinos had full confidence that the slots were fully random (no chance of predicting cycles etc), and that the WR for the bonuses gave them a long term edge, they would KNOW that I would lose in the longer term just as we know the sun will rise tomorrow morning (even if covered by cloud).

It is oddities like this that fuel the conspiracy theories. Players expect that operators have all the insider knowledge, so WHY do they run scared when SLOTS players have a lucky streak - it indicates they may not be 100% certain of the randomness of the games, and are not willing to risk that the player may actually be reading "cycles" in the slots, rather than just being very lucky. The high variance of slot games means that players WILL have extraordinary runs of luck, and these may even look like they have a "slot system", but OPERATORS should know better than to be hoodwinked by what is known as "the gamblers' fallacy". The conspiracy theories ocurr because of the logic that follows on from casinos bonus banning slots players, which is that there is an element of skill that these players have which means the casino is no longer in possession of an edge over the player in the long term.

In short, many of the conspiracy theories and doubts have resulted from interpreting the actions of operators in a logical manner.

As the industry matures, we may find a few of these conspiracy theories are actually TRUE, and there will be quite a price to pay for those operators who were engaged in what players see as "cheating".

One conspiracy theory has revolved around RTG "tightening the slots", and this example may well have shown that this one is actually TRUE, because carelessness in the design of this RTP version has given a very visible indicator, whereas in the past we were brushed aside with replies such as "you don't see the symbol because it is a movie representation, not the actual reel strip passing by". I believe now that a number of RTG casinos have indeed altered the RTP versions of some of the slots, and when we see signs such as symbols not appearing so often, it is a TRUE sign of such a change, and it will be far harder for RTG operators at least to explain it away as "you were just unlucky", or "it is a display thing".

The problem with the other softwares is that they are just so damn SECRETIVE about something that SHOULD never be a problem if discussed openly, such as being able to tell us the reelstrips of games, and their RTP - rather than us having to analyse the slots ourselves.
Being unnecessarily secretive ALSO fuels conspiracy theories, as it is assumed that there has to be a reason for keeping something secret, which usually means that damage would be done by revealing the information.

 

[mac-online]

KK seams to feel that the fruit slot could be mapped to know the exact configuration of the reals. Can all of RTG or MG slots be mapped? Perhaps a program can be made to go through the casinos mapping like a mad hatter.
This could be very beneficial to players once it is anilized and posted. Or as i suggested in another post have certain amout of players with a recording device to know real RTP's.

I know what a RTP is but what does the letters stand for? Reel Time %

 

[KasinoKing]

KK seams to feel that the fruit slot could be mapped to know the exact configuration of the reals. Can all of RTG or MG slots be mapped?

Yes they can - but it takes fricking AGES!
I first did Thunderstruck and Tomb Raider by literally noting down loads of spin outcomes and then putting them all together like a jigsaw puzzle. This took me about 15-20 hours of work each.
Then someone decoded the feeds for the flash MG games (not ALL games), which made it MUCH quicker.
After that I found the newer MG slots show the actual reel strips during the spinning part (as opposed to a meaningless blur), and by using video capture software it's possible to plot the reel strips.
This method could also be applied to RTG - but each slot would still take 5 - 6 hours of work.
I spent 100's of hours putting all the reel-strip and feature-hitting odds for 19 MG slots on my SlotBeaters site, thinking it would be a very popular resource for players - but the number of visitors it gets is pathetically depressing, so it's very hard to motivate myself to spend any more time on this activity.

I'm considering doing Fruit Frenzy as a goodbye gift for Rusty (he asked me to) - but I can't see myself doing much more than that.

I know what a RTP is but what does the letters stand for? Reel Time %

Noooooo = RealTime PROFIT!

KK

 

[lnspin]

I used to play that game alot, havent in a while thou. Going to give it a good look next time i play to see if there still there.

 

[RobWin]

KK seams to feel that the fruit slot could be mapped to know the exact configuration of the reals. Can all of RTG or MG slots be mapped? Perhaps a program can be made to go through the casinos mapping like a mad hatter.
This could be very beneficial to players once it is anilized and posted. Or as i suggested in another post have certain amout of players with a recording device to know real RTP's.

I know what a RTP is but what does the letters stand for? Reel Time %

The Acronym "RTP" means "Return To Player" as in the overall percentage.
____
____

 

[felicie]

Wow I've got logs of spins on RTG's from way back but my trouble was, I never knew where I was headed with it. LOL. Great potential for a brain here but.....anyway all I know is that little banana headed fruit slot has always been where I went back to when the balance got too low but just now, I played $30 down to zip @$1.20 (didn't it use to be $1.25?) a spin and didn't even get one chance to plop the strawb into the mellon. That has never happened before.

 

[KasinoKing]

I played $30 down to zip @$1.20 (didn't it use to be $1.25?)

It's a 25-line slot - so the only way you could have spun @ $1.20/spin (5c coins) is if you accidentally had it set to only 24 win-lines...

KK

 

[KasinoKing]

I'm surprised there's not more interest in this thread as it is VERY significant in terms of RTP...

Anyway, I just tried Intertops in fun mode - no double pear...!
But what I did see was a single Pear appearing in at least 4 different reel-stops - so there must be quite a lot of them on that reel.

As a guide for anyone looking for this, we are talking about Reel 2, and the pair of Pears in question have a Banana above & Balloons below, so you will see one of these two configurations:

 

[Pinababy69]

the pair of Pears in question have a Banana above & Balloons below

Only on Casinomeister, lol.

I've watched the thread KK, but (for once) I don't really have much to say. The gist of it is that they've changed the reel strip layout, which alters the RTP? But didn't we always know that RTG had the three different RTP settings? I'm guessing the pear is the lowest paying symbol, which would mean they've adjusted the RTP to a lower percentage? Is there another way they could switch the RTP between 93, 95 and 97%, without altering the reel strip layout? I know I'm missing something here...which is why I need Rusty to explain it to me like I'm five.

 

[KasinoKing]

Only on Casinomeister, lol.

I've watched the thread KK, but (for once) I don't really have much to say. The gist of it is that they've changed the reel strip layout, which alters the RTP? But didn't we always know that RTG had the three different RTP settings? I'm guessing the pear is the lowest paying symbol, which would mean they've adjusted the RTP to a lower percentage? Is there another way they could switch the RTP between 93, 95 and 97%, without altering the reel strip layout? I know I'm missing something here...which is why I need Rusty to explain it to me like I'm five.

Actually the Pear isn't the lowest paying symbol - it's one of the highest! But adding it to the reels will still lower the RTP.
I actually think they add more than one symbol, and possibly more than one reel is effected too - we would not really notice. The only reason this one was spotted is because the 2 Pears are together.

OK, I'll try to explain it simply!
Say Reel 2 has just 1 wild symbol on it.
Obviously if this appears in the "window" you have a better chance of getting a win.
Suppose for the highest return variation that Reel 2 has 30 symbols;
Chance of getting the Wild in view = 1 in 10 (3 positions in 30).
If they added 3 lesser symbols, the chance of getting a Wild would be 1 in 11.
If they added 6 lesser symbols, the chance of getting a Wild would be 1 in 12.

So I hope you can see how this effects your expected return?

Another example:
Suppose you need 3 scatters on reels 1, 2 & 3 for a feature, and there's only 1 scatter per reel.
If there were 30 symbols per reel, the chance of hitting 3 scatters is 1/10 x 1/10 x 1/10 = 1 in 1000
At 33 symbols per reel it would be 11 x 11 x 11 = 1 in 1,331
At 36 symbols per reel it would be 12 x 12 x 12 = 1 in 1,728

That's a HUGE reduction in your chance of getting the feature just by adding a few symbols to the reels - and something most of us would never notice in normal play.
That's why I think this thread is so significant - if we could "crack" the reels we could tell which variation of slot we were playing, and then be able to choose which casino we wanted to play at; the one with 97% return, or the one with 92%...

KK

 

[Pinababy69]

Thank you KK....now I get it. And I guess that's why Rusty was so eager to have the reels mapped out as well? So do you figure that when the casinos "update" when you login, and it tells you that a new version of the lobby is ready to install.....what they've actually done is perhaps changed the game layouts, and either increased or decreased the RTP?

 

[thelawnet]

If you believe MG slots have a set RTP and are completely random without probability tables or weighting you are completely deluding yourself I'm afraid.

Essentially all the software works in a very similar same way.

Not sure what this means, but Wagerworks, for one, publicly state that their slots are random and not-weighted.

I don't think MG have weighted their games for a while, the statement about Mega Moolah weighting in the bonus game shows that they take this seriously.

 

[Setsuna]

Played real mode @ Inetbet - no double pears, either in normal and free spins .

Some screenshots of pears in reel 2 for those who'd like to compare :

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[thelawnet]

Actually the Pear isn't the lowest paying symbol - it's one of the highest! But adding it to the reels will still lower the RTP.

Maybe, maybe not. For instance, let's say that 3 Sausages pays 10 coins.

And there are 30 symbols on each reel, 5 sausages.

The chance of 3 sausages is then 5/30*5/30*5/30 - 1 in 216.

The payout would be 4.630%

Add another symbol to reel 2, and the chance falls to 1 in 223, the payout to 4.45% - a fall in RTP, if replicated across the board, of 3.33%.

If 3 pears has the same probability and payout, the return would increase due to the 6/31 term from 4.630% to 5.376%. Which obviously is less than 3.33%, but what if it was one of those slots where they kill the payout by only putting a small number of symbols on one of the reels?

Say the payout for 3 pears is 20 coins and there are 5,1,10 symbols on the first three reels. By adding a single pear to reel 2 you boost the payout of 3 pears from 3.704% to 7.169%. Which is enough to offset the fall from other symbols, and that's before you consider the fact that 4 and 5 pears are now far more likely.

It's not right to say that adding a symbol will always reduce the payout.

I would look at how many pears are on this reel already. If they are rare, it is quite possible that this has increased the payout. If there are already lots, it is probably done to reduce the payout.

But no conspiracy theories without evidence please.

 

[KasinoKing]

It's not right to say that adding a symbol will always reduce the payout.

I understand where you're coming from, and you are quite correct of course.
But I was trying to keep the explanation simple!
OK, then I'll say there's an extremely good chance that adding symbols reduces the payout.

If we had the FULL reel-strips we could calculate the approximate RTP and then know for sure what the effect of extra symbols is.

But no conspiracy theories without evidence please.

Was that comment aimed at me, or Rusty...?

Thank you KK....now I get it. And I guess that's why Rusty was so eager to have the reels mapped out as well? So do you figure that when the casinos "update" when you login, and it tells you that a new version of the lobby is ready to install.....what they've actually done is perhaps changed the game layouts, and either increased or decreased the RTP?

It's possible, but I think it's very unlikely that EVERY update is a change to RTP.

It's very annoying, but all download softwares seem to do these "updates" far too frequently.
I wish they would tell us what exactly they are updating, but I reckon that ain't never gonna happen.

KK

 

[bb28]

It bothers me that most RTG's do not post the RTP on their website. We can only assume that the reasons that they do not is they don't want us to know or they change it often. Either scenario sucks!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Played real mode @ Inetbet - no double pears, either in normal and free spins .

Some screenshots of pears in reel 2 for those who'd like to compare :

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This is significant, since iNetBet are on record stating THEIR slots are on the 95% they came with as "standard", and they have no intention of lowering the RTP as a means to increase profit. Since they are accredited, I am taking this as a true statement made "in good faith".

It bothers me that most RTG's do not post the RTP on their website. We can only assume that the reasons that they do not is they don't want us to know or they change it often. Either scenario sucks!

They don't want players to know it is even POSSIBLE to change the RTP. Many of these casinos will quote an unverified payout percentage, but will not give the basis for it's calculation, and often with the likes of RTG it is THEY that have selected the month they use, which is probably a best case scenario for the player. Once they change RTP, any payout based on past performance becomes meaningless, but I'll bet it is STILL there on the website.

It is hard to calculate the RTP of Fruit Frenzy because of the bonus round, but it should be possible to calculate the RTP of simpler slots, where there are only free spins and multipliers, and no "behind the scenes" probability schedules in use.

 

[Pulver]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

 

[thelawnet]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

They do it for the video poker games. It's not really a surprise that they do it for slots either.

Unless the operator publishes the return, you really can't complain that you're being cheated - solution, play elsewhere.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

Well, an "unofficial" rep for Playfair casino has stated on another thread that THEIR Fruit Frenzy is on 97%.

IF we can prove his/her credibilty, and that of the casino, we can THEN check Fruit Frenzy at Playfair. IF we don't see the two pears, we then can isolate the 2 pear variant as being 93%.

It follows by business logic that if Fruit Frenzy is 93% at a casino, in general their slots are far more likely to have been lowered to 93%, rather than 97%, or indeed left alone.

If we can then identify something on a 97% Fruit Frenzy, we then have a tool to determine which RTG casinos are more likely to be set to low RTP, "standard" RTP, and High RTP

I doubt it will last, since casinos may then DELIBERATELY set Fruit Frenzy to 95% or 97% to fool players, whilst setting the rest to lower RTP settings.

 

[casinojack]

Well, an "unofficial" rep for Playfair casino has stated on another thread that THEIR Fruit Frenzy is on 97%.

IF we can prove his/her credibilty, and that of the casino, we can THEN check Fruit Frenzy at Playfair. IF we don't see the two pears, we then can isolate the 2 pear variant as being 93%.

It follows by business logic that if Fruit Frenzy is 93% at a casino, in general their slots are far more likely to have been lowered to 93%, rather than 97%, or indeed left alone.

If we can then identify something on a 97% Fruit Frenzy, we then have a tool to determine which RTG casinos are more likely to be set to low RTP, "standard" RTP, and High RTP

I doubt it will last, since casinos may then DELIBERATELY set Fruit Frenzy to 95% or 97% to fool players, whilst setting the rest to lower RTP settings.

Setting is 97.5%, Hope this helps...

 

[mac-online]

A question conscerning software providers and their control on their games... When I am playing a slot (Fruit Frenzy for example) where is the video actually coming from? I thought it was from the software provider not the casino. But if it is from the software provider how could a casino change the reels? Do some providers manage the video and others let the casino serve it?

 

[casinojack]

re: RTG, ops can change payouts not symbols on the wheel....

 

[mac-online]

re: RTG, ops can change payouts not symbols on the wheel....

How about other Software providers. Can the ops in every casino with every software provider change the payouts?

But.... Waite... we are talking about changing reels in this thread. So I am lost here. Are the casinos or the sloftware provider changing the reels on Fruit Frenzy?

 

[KasinoKing]

How about other Software providers. Can the ops in every casino with every software provider change the payouts?

We don't know.
And it's very unlikely that anyone who does know is going to come & post about it on a public forum, though personally I don't understand all the secrecy...

But.... Waite... we are talking about changing reels in this thread. So I am lost here. Are the casinos or the sloftware provider changing the reels on Fruit Frenzy?

The software provider.
It would be a VERY dark day for players if the individual casinos could tinker with any of their games!

From what others have posted; RTG casinos can ask RTG themselves to set any of their slots to one of 3 RTP settings. They can also apparently request different Video Poker paytables, and some card games too (e.g. Stud or 3-card poker).

I don't recall ever hearing of any of the other main software providers offering these facilities to their clients... but who knows?

KK

 

[mac-online]

Yow... RTG is Unreal!!

OK one more question... Can all casinos with all software providers adjust their RTP's? or just certain ones?

As a player i asked CasinoEuro (NetEnt) if they could and they said NO!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am looking into this with regard to Fruit Frenzy. I have long known that RTG operators have the option to select different payouts on the games. This was "bleedin' obvious" to me when I found 40/25 tri-card poker on one RTG casino, and "full pay" 40/30 at another. We later discovered (but without any concrete evidence) that the slots had different settings. A number of RTG operators have admitted this, but that they can only choose from three settings, they CANNOT mess with the reels.

We now have a games developer on board, who describes how games such as Fruit Frenzy are set up, 3 different layouts are designed, and these form the three RTP settings available to the operator. The operator chooses the setting they want, and it is the software that selects the appropriate layout to be used.

The first concrete proof that alternate settings were indeed being used came when the "double pear" version of Fruit Frenzy was discovered, and demonstrates that RTP changes are effected by changing reel layouts. It is also possible that probability schedules are changed in the slots using "pick X of Y" type bonus rounds - the earlier Fruit Frenzy error gave some indication of this, where a screw up meant that no win greater than 5 spins could be awarded due to a messed up probability schedule (now fixed by RTG of course).

Unlike RTG, I have never had any kind of evidence that RTP can be changed in games from the other MAIN providers. We DO know however, that Rival games are regularly "tweaked", as well as Top Game. These developers did this because of poor player feedback, however they have introduced the proverbial "can of worms" because we now know that the games can be messed with.

 

[casinojack]

Yow... RTG is Unreal!!

OK one more question... Can all casinos with all software providers adjust their RTP's? or just certain ones?

As a player i asked CasinoEuro (NetEnt) if they could and they said NO!

IMO, RTG does a GREAT job! the software controls they have are like every other half way decent software provider, land based and online. All casinos need the ability to tweak things.

Example. Las Vegas law (last I checked) mandated that slots RTP MIN is set to 75%!! 75% !! This is robbery,,,,I think the lowest setting for any slot is 86% and many min are in the 90%! This is much more fair then Las Vegas! and Atlantic city is about 80% I think so still in line....

When you play a slot at a land based casino what % is it? Some might have 2 -3 advertised at 99% or whatever, but please note, these numbers change very often at landbased also.

I speak for the casino i work for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or suck with things, that is not really their fault...

 

[thelawnet]

I speak for the casino i work for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or suck with things, that is not really their fault...

Like continuing to deal with crooked casinos, year after year?

 

[mac-online]

If I was one of the of Bads or the Uglies and wanted to open a new casino for my own, there would be only two software companies to choose from Real Time Gaming or RTG. That is what I am hearing here. The adjustment capability has to be sexy as hell for those guys. Yes... and if I were one of the Good Guys and had to choose, I think I wouldn't avoid RTG and the bad company they keep, whether I liked their software or not. There is a lot of other softwares to choose from out there.

But i can agree with KJ in his perspective that online casinos are a better bet than B&M. Yet online can have a lot less overhead. And I am listening to him when he says:

"I speak for the casino i work(own) for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or stuck with things, that is not really their fault..."
I totally believe that as well. But I know my son's casinos are not tweaked AT ALL and the software providers wouldn't go for it if he wanted to... which he doesn't. So I don't know about that Big Jack. If it needs to be tweeked because of bad design it could be done shortly after release.

The trouble with the rougues is that they are focusing on a very dizzy perspective of life. When things are good, then normal/most/you/me have a tendance to get drunk in it. It is very intoxicating and you want/need more. It is a normal addiction pattern. It might not be my exact addiction but I do deal with my own and know it intimately. It is almost imposible for them to act otherwise.