high rolling does not pay off

[lockinlove]

Hey folks!

First off let me say I had some fun and exciting moments tonight.

I am up $5000 in the past 3 weeks so I decided to use some of these winnings and have a high rolling session.

Starting balance $3000

Lowest bet allowed $3.00 Highest bet $12.00

Average bet was $7

Well I have played slots for a long time so I already knew this from my observations. Betting high continually just isnt worth it. Why?

Because most base games do not pay well and when you hit a bonus its usually 50x or under. So say you are doing $7 bets. Well the base game is slowly or quickly going to milk you until you hit a bonus.

Lets review my game play today.

Immortal Romance 11 bonuses at $7.20. zero bonuses or hits on $12 bets

troy feature picked 5 times. best win 24x
Amber 4 times. Best win 30x
Sarah feature twice. Best win 11x


Jurassic park. $4.50 bets

Feature hit 5 times

long neck twice bet win 22x
trex once best win 15x
rhinos 2 times. best win 18x

TS11

4 features at $4.50 bets

5x feature twice best win 8x
2 times loki best win 33x

Avalon bet size $7.20

No features after 300 spins

GoT

$3 bets

No feature after 300 spins

Bonanza $5-$10 bets

1 feature paid 115x on $5

FROL

3 bonuses $12 bet

wild vine feature for all 3. Best win 41x

$5 bet on mega moolah Isis.

no features.

spun that jackpot wheel once and won $100

Total losses.

$2144 from slot.

I went to roulette with the rest and won $1500 back

So total session loss Was just shy of $700

While I had a fun time hitting bonuses at those bet sizes. It convinced me high rolling is completely senseless. its near impossible to win or get ahead unless you are so incredibly lucky. That losses are way larger much quicker and trying to ever get ahead is not going to happen unless you are just so lucky

The best way to play slot IMO. is bets under $2. between .50 and $1.20. Anything more and you are just asking for it.

I do like random big bets here and there when a slot feels good though. Only way to win!

 

[nikantw]

I do like random big bets here and there when a slot feels good though. Only way to win!

Yes
Only way to do it

 

[dunover]

I just did the same as you, for the same reasons but not as much cash started with, on the Rapist at Trada. The result was the same but no roulette recovery as I don't play it. £3.60 - £1.60 spins and awful bonuses - when I could hit them. The game seemed to play totally differently as it did on the one occasion before at Redbet when I tried doing the same after a 2.25k Twin Spin win with 3.20-6 Euro bets and set my all-time record for consecutive BoGs of 9 bonus rounds....Mmmm..

 

[chris87]

Yes, generally my experience too, although it is said that as everything is random you've as much chance of hitting a win on higher bets as lower! I've found that DOA is particularly poor on higher bets, particularly the feature, if you're lucky enough to hit it.

Interestingly though my only 4 line IR Wild Desire and T2 Hot Mode were whilst on "higher bets" of £3.00

Chris

 

[Jono777]

long neck twice bet win 22x

Pmsl!

 

[lockinlove]

I just did the same as you, for the same reasons but not as much cash started with, on the Rapist at Trada. The result was the same but no roulette recovery as I don't play it. £3.60 - £1.60 spins and awful bonuses - when I could hit them. The game seemed to play totally differently as it did on the one occasion before at Redbet when I tried doing the same after a 2.25k Twin Spin win with 3.20-6 Euro bets and set my all-time record for consecutive BoGs of 9 bonus rounds....Mmmm..

Its so not worth it. I have zero interest in ever doing it again.

Think about it this way. When you play .90 sessions, think about how most slots play. you lose $40 to hit the bonus and the bonus pays 5x-30x most of the time. Replace that .90 with $7.20. You see how bad it kills you?

now think about some of the higher volatility slots like GoT. usually 400 spins or more to hit a bonus that pays 10x 95% of the time. Instant killer.

You can do it like jasminebed did on the government site if you are super incredibly lucky destroying all odds of math but 99.9 times out of 100 it isnt going to happen. the only thing that happens is the losses are much bigger and much quicker.

i am convinced its absolutely pointless aside from doing a handful when you have a feeling its going to hit.

I was VERY disappointed with how these bonuses paid out. I feel almost convinced the slot pays you a set amount regardless of bet size. I feel when I won $90 on a $4.50 bet. I would have won that if I bet .90. How many times I won $30 on a $6 bet. Its a set payout amount that doesnt take your bet size into consideration imo

$4.50 is a big risk. to win $9 on the 5x feature on tsII is beyond special

 

[greylady]

Ah but only one session is not a true representation of wins is it? I would assume if you continue to bet at higher stakes on the slots that eventually they would come good...but at what cost! It's like the old adage you have to speculate before you accumulate. Maybe you just picked a below average day to play, after all it's the weekend when most people play and win.

That is just my thoughts on it

 

[Naok777]

Sounds like the description of a normal day on slots to me, regardless of bet size.

Your balance ever going above what you started with is just not going to happen unless you get a 50x+ bonus in the first hundred spins or have the bankroll and willpower to play DoA non stop for 6+ hours.

No coincidence I have massively cut back on slotting.

 

[lockinlove]

Pmsl!

haha. It didnt deserve me taking the time to spell that long winded name.

 

[lockinlove]

Ah but only one session is not a true representation of wins is it? I would assume if you continue to bet at higher stakes on the slots that eventually they would come good...but at what cost! It's like the old adage you have to speculate before you accumulate. Maybe you just picked a below average day to play, after all it's the weekend when most people play and win.

That is just my thoughts on it

The biggest punch to the stomach was playing IR on $7.20 bets and I actually hit the feature 3 times in like 40 spins. Its a dream on those stakes.

But sadly it was crushed by terrible payouts.

TSII was the biggest disappointment. The bonuses paid garbage and I even got a wild storm on a $4.50 bet. That paid 2x. lol

Think about someone like monkii. He is a pretty big spinner but is down tens of thousands of dollars and cant hit anything.

Thats why these stakes are dangerous 99.9% of the time. the hole gets deeper quicker and you keep chasing.

 

[Steviedoo]

.....play at higher bet after the 200th spin...

Games you played are they considered high or low variance....?

 

[BrianGhattas]

@lockinlove

It's a shame we have a limited number of slots to play here. I would like someday to see you be able to high roll on the WMS, Net Entertainment and Novomatics that the Europeans can play. Then again, you can probably afford a few European vacations with your success on the slots to try!

 

[goatwack]

Oh that's an easy one.

They're compensated.

/ end of thread

 

[Jasminebed]

Winning big did not turn me into a perpetual high-roller. It also didn't stop me from doing it sometimes, in fact all too often.

But I definitely feel that depositing BIG is a big mistake. At least for me. I like playing, I want to play for a certainly length of time when I make a deposit and settle in. This does not always happen of course.

If you deposit $50, and get up to $500, you've had a great session. You are $450 up, yippee!!

So if you deposit $3000 and get up to $3500, are you cashing out? You are up $500. Many sites require you to play through at least 1x. You've only had 20 spins at this point at $5 a pop, and just hit a win over 100x your bet. Do you sit and grind out your 1x at 40 cent bets for the next two days? Not me anyway.

If you deposit that $50 and get up to $500 and decide to do $3 bets instead of cashing out and get up to a grand, you might well cash right out then. But let's say you don't. $20 spins on Bonanza well, must be time to try that. Do I stop when I'm down to $500 (still that $450 profit I should have been happy with). Maybe some are smarter than me once you start high rolling, but I can tell you NO.

End of story, I lost my $50 deposit. Do I go to bed happy? Pretty much.

If I keep depositing chunks to chase what wasn't much of a loss in the first place and keep high rolling, do I go to bed happy? NO I said something in another thread about chasing losses that were not losses.

Do I try again the next time I have a grand from a lower deposit? Probably not the very next time, lol. But not the last time either I give it a try.

Almost every game lockinlove listed is pretty high variance. One thing with the games on OLG, very few are capable of producing the really big hits, although they have added a couple in past year that are a little more so. So it's more that possible to play bigger stakes on lower variance games with a smaller bankroll.

I never deposit intending to be a whale. I still regard my deposit as lost when I begin a session, just hoping for some fun with my money.

There have been some seriously great cashouts in the past year and a half from doing just that, playing high after I'm well up. And a lot of potentially great cashouts left in cinders.

But overall slotting is a losing game, we all know it. If you bet 10x as high, you are overall going to lose 10x as much.

I think as gamblers, we need to push it once in a while.

But a big start balance is IMO not the way to go about it, at least not for me.

Intellectually, there is zero difference between lockinlove being up 5K in a session, cashing out 2K and highrolling the rest, do or die. But it just feels very different to me to deposit a large sum.

It's not that uncommon for me to load a few hundred on my card to have a weekend with, and make 6 deposits of $50, knowing I have a $300 bankroll and play $1 bets from the beginning. But it's more likely to be allocated to a few different casinos, especially if there are bonus offers I'd like to play.

Maybe next time lockinlove, and all the rest of you.

For the record, I've not made a $100 bet since an accidental one (and then a series since the first one paid 3x my bet and as long as I was not down) in June of last year.

But I've lost a lot of potential cashouts of a grand or two on bigger bets of $5 to $30.

We all know how easy it is to lose $20 on 20 cent bets. It is every bit as easy (or hard) to lose 2K on 20 bets.

 

[Jasminebed]

@lockinlove

It's a shame we have a limited number of slots to play here. I would like someday to see you be able to high roll on the WMS, Net Entertainment and Novomatics that the Europeans can play. Then again, you can probably afford a few European vacations with your success on the slots to try!

My trip to Malta next month will probably run under 3K. Flight and hotel are about $1500 and I'm there for 17 days.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Here's my story regarding high rolling since i did it quite a bit in the past.

At the beginning of my online gaming i would almost exclusively play 9-liners - TS1, Spring Break, Ladies Night and Tally Hoo. Deposits would be EUR500 - 1,000 and straight into it with EUR4.50 - 9.00 bets, up to EUR45 if I would have a small winning streak. Not once in the first 7 years would I have enough with one deposit, minimum EUR1,500 - 2,000 would disappear without anything happening whatsoever. Then in 2005 i managed once a withdrawal of EUR15K from just one EUR500 deposit.

Would regularly lose EUR5K in one session with maybe 1x or 2x a bonus round which would hardly pay a few bucks.

Fast forward to 2013, decided to have once a highroller session at 32RED after receiving a huge commission payment. All play was on the Sure Win slot from MG (clone of Loaded). Deposits of AUD1,000 a piece and bets of AUD12.50 - 62.50. TWENTY deposits and AUD20K later I had nothing to show for. No good bonus round, no good base pay, nothing, NADA, not even a small rally in between, money just disappeared. No fun whatsoever.
Next day i returned and stayed firmly between AUD6.25 - 12.50 and recovered 12K from the losses. I went some 600 spins with never more than 30 spins on average between bonus rounds plus plenty of strong 5OAK in the base game. Coincidence?

In my experience, 99% of the times I turn up the bets the slots go "magically" cold and the complete opposite when i go to minimum bet. I remember one session on DOA, 1,000 spins @ 0.09 yielded 102% RTP followed by 500 spins @ 1.80 with a 23% RTP. But in my view, Bonanza is the worst performer when you change from low to higher bets, followed by Buffalo Blitz.

One example: TS2 - play it with $6/spin and it does not show a single scatter or decent pay for 50-100 spins, go down to $0.30 for 5 spins. I guarantee you that you will see on the first spin minimum 1 scatter, often 2 and some good pays within those 5 spins. Never fails. I think that it is programed to give players that psychological "fear" feeling that the slot will hit a bonus round or a good pay, just to make them turn up the bets again. I have no other explanation as it just happens 100% whenever i do it.

Game developers can tell me all they want that games are 100% random - I am convinced they are not!! At the end of the day they will not make money from 0.09 bets!!!! No chance. Certainly not the kind they seem to be making.

 

[theslotsking]

I have often wondered perhaps as to whether the algorithms of the game changes based on the bet size.
I love quick spin games but the feature payouts can be awful. I was playing at $12.50 a spin on razortooth, was down to final $300 and decided to play $100 a spin for final three and got the feature. I expected a massive pay and won a huge 8.5x - $850. Bitterly disappointed I went to bed!

 

[Naok777]

The biggest punch to the stomach was playing IR on $7.20 bets and I actually hit the feature 3 times in like 40 spins. Its a dream on those stakes.

But sadly it was crushed by terrible payouts.

The problem is that we have all seen things like that happen at low stakes, so it doesn't indicate that slots behave differently at high stakes.

To test if they behave differently we would need samples from thousands of sessions that followed a consistent relative deposit size, bet size and cashout goal like for example:

Deposit £10, bet £0.20 a spin and cashout if you get to £30
Deposit £100, bet £2 a spin and cashout if you get to £300
Deposit £1000, bet £20 a spin and cashout if you get to £3000
In all three examples the chance of reaching the cashout target should be pretty equal across thousands of sessions.

 

[aceking123]

Come on guys ive heard too far to much & people always state the same old thing in regards to you was unlucky ,you're going via dry patch bla bla bla.

Problem is we have no proof as of yet , we have some great players here & loads of knowledge , not just bullshit , you guys must remember that some of us players have been online for 15 years plus as always playing & more , i'm in no doubt whatsoever that the servers control the games & payouts period , there is nothing random in terms of the game , big bets are server controlled different stake levels , even trance has stated it does not matter what stake is played , well i do not believe this at all & never will.

i hear harry with big numbers state on more than one occasion how these so called random events die at bigger stakes , again a good knowledge of slot play , lockinlove the same . i include myself as a old player & have seen & tested it myself, the point is were not talking newbies here we're talking about veteran players , i could name a few more , low stakes great gaming , higher stakes same results as if you was playing 90p -£2 stakes.

its just too uncanny that with higher stakes these slots do the same thing even when doing 30+ sessions at the same stakes , drop the stake boom it starts playing , up the stake death pretty quickly.

Anyone work out my odds on roulette european single zero.

now upto 60 losing spins @ minimum bet of $50 .im covering 11 numbers & these have been saved , i've yet to hit a single number.

ive tried this on live games roulette & never gone more than 28 spins before hitting some kind of number.

Make of it what you will but somewhere down the line it shall come out that indeed the games play to stake level & one other question that so far since joining here has still remained unanswered ( why is there a small pause when changing stakes or lines on MG games ????? )

 

[lockinlove]

The problem is that we have all seen things like that happen at low stakes, so it doesn't indicate that slots behave differently at high stakes.

To test if they behave differently we would need samples from thousands of sessions that followed a consistent relative deposit size, bet size and cashout goal like for example:

Deposit £10, bet £0.20 a spin and cashout if you get to £30
Deposit £100, bet £2 a spin and cashout if you get to £300
Deposit £1000, bet £20 a spin and cashout if you get to £3000
In all three examples the chance of reaching the cashout target should be pretty equal across thousands of sessions.

Hey im not even saying anything about rigged stuff. Im just saying its not worth it either way.

 

[goatwack]

Low stakes play serves to give the illusion that winning is easy and that the slots can do no wrong. It's supposed to entice players to bet bigger.

You can guess the rest

 

[syrus2]

Unfortunately, this's a trouble with many players.
I gamble 15 years, the slots acting different on higher stakes, so they are not rendom. servers control the games .
Not realizing , at the same time they can'nt hit anything decent on higher stakes, there is always someone in other side of the world who does.
You can gamble 50 years and still, end up with nothing. whereas , a kid with a lazy 20 euro depo hits the jackpot . Gambling for the first time in his life .
The profit of casino is the result of very small percent, lost by 1000 of players per day. And these slots are set up in such a way to make that happens .In the long run, casino is always the winner, as well as the provider .

 

[greylady]

Low roller @ 100 x £1 stake = £100 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £1000

High roller @ 100 x £20 stake = £2000 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £20,000

I would think the odds of the bigger win are greatly reduced as the slot would have to accumulate a lot of losses from other people to pay out the sum in keeping with the rtp - well it makes sense to me.

This would also mean slots are not random but play in line with their mathematical monetary availability.

I do, in part, believe the server is more reliant on the outcome than the randomness of the spin.

It makes sense to me but probably not totally clear in what I am trying to get across to everyone else - I work with figures everyday

 

[paul7388]

Low roller @ 100 x £1 stake = £100 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £1000

High roller @ 100 x £20 stake = £2000 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £200, 000

I would think the odds of the bigger win are greatly reduced as the slot would have to accumulate a lot of losses from other people to pay out the sum in keeping with the rtp - well it makes sense to me.

This would also mean slots are not random but play in line with their mathematical monetary availability.

I do, in part, believe the server is more reliant on the outcome than the randomness of the spin.

It makes sense to me but probably not totally clear in what I am trying to get across to everyone else - I work with figures everyday

Lol you work with figures every day so i will let you work out the mistake in your calculations above

 

[Chipkin9]

Have noticed this 100% with MG slots.

Usually I am a minimum bettor at 0.30 stake on MG, but the last few weeks I tried playing at 0.90 and 1.20 as I started good with bonuses and was trying for that nice hit and to clear wagering quicker.

Now at 0.30, it's pretty common to hit a 100x from freespins in all of there 243 games, and sometimes you'll get the lucky 200x.

Stayed for the bonus round 3 times on IR II, Playboy, and Lost Wages and my highest freespin return was 70x from those 9 rounds.

Usually I can hit a 100x every 3-4 freespins round at 0.30 bets, so what gives?

 

[Chipkin9]

Game developers can tell me all they want that games are 100% random - I am convinced they are not!! At the end of the day they will not make money from 0.09 bets!!!! No chance. Certainly not the kind they seem to be making.

Oh, but NotEnt will!

Start DoA with a balance of £4 and play at 0.09 an you will have no trouble at all seeing scatters or a bonus round.

Start DoA with a balance of £25-30 at 0.09 and see how many scatter or bonuses you see...every single time without fail it seems to "counterbalance" what you are trying to do (Which is trying to give yourself more chances at a wildline to put it simply).

 

[BrianGhattas]

@jasminebed

You learn something everyday. I didn't know that I had to play through 1x of my deposit until today.

I'm going to keep the deposits at $50. I am up $770 for 2017 and I'm still deciding whether to take my medicine now or resist it for a few more days or even weeks. Problem is, it's tough for an ultra-low roller such as myself to top a 5000x win for $1000. Any "big win" now pales in comparison.

 

[greylady]

Lol you work with figures every day so i will let you work out the mistake in your calculations above

Whoooooops, I added an extra 0, what a numpty I am

 

[paul7388]

Whoooooops, I added an extra 0, what a numpty I am

Lol sorry i just found it funny someone saying they are good at figures while making a mistake.

Need to get out more i think lol

 

[greylady]

Lol sorry i just found it funny someone saying they are good at figures while making a mistake.

Need to get out more i think lol

It was a typo - honest injun

 

[Playford7]

Here's my story regarding high rolling since i did it quite a bit in the past.

At the beginning of my online gaming i would almost exclusively play 9-liners - TS1, Spring Break, Ladies Night and Tally Hoo. Deposits would be EUR500 - 1,000 and straight into it with EUR4.50 - 9.00 bets, up to EUR45 if I would have a small winning streak. Not once in the first 7 years would I have enough with one deposit, minimum EUR1,500 - 2,000 would disappear without anything happening whatsoever. Then in 2005 i managed once a withdrawal of EUR15K from just one EUR500 deposit.

Would regularly lose EUR5K in one session with maybe 1x or 2x a bonus round which would hardly pay a few bucks.

Fast forward to 2013, decided to have once a highroller session at 32RED after receiving a huge commission payment. All play was on the Sure Win slot from MG (clone of Loaded). Deposits of AUD1,000 a piece and bets of AUD12.50 - 62.50. TWENTY deposits and AUD20K later I had nothing to show for. No good bonus round, no good base pay, nothing, NADA, not even a small rally in between, money just disappeared. No fun whatsoever.
Next day i returned and stayed firmly between AUD6.25 - 12.50 and recovered 12K from the losses. I went some 600 spins with never more than 30 spins on average between bonus rounds plus plenty of strong 5OAK in the base game. Coincidence?

In my experience, 99% of the times I turn up the bets the slots go "magically" cold and the complete opposite when i go to minimum bet. I remember one session on DOA, 1,000 spins @ 0.09 yielded 102% RTP followed by 500 spins @ 1.80 with a 23% RTP. But in my view, Bonanza is the worst performer when you change from low to higher bets, followed by Buffalo Blitz.

One example: TS2 - play it with $6/spin and it does not show a single scatter or decent pay for 50-100 spins, go down to $0.30 for 5 spins. I guarantee you that you will see on the first spin minimum 1 scatter, often 2 and some good pays within those 5 spins. Never fails. I think that it is programed to give players that psychological "fear" feeling that the slot will hit a bonus round or a good pay, just to make them turn up the bets again. I have no other explanation as it just happens 100% whenever i do it.

Game developers can tell me all they want that games are 100% random - I am convinced they are not!! At the end of the day they will not make money from 0.09 bets!!!! No chance. Certainly not the kind they seem to be making.

Great post that Harry. Also a good read.
The amount of times I've been betting big then dropped stake and hit a bonus is uncountable.
The amount of times I raise stake and hit a bonus can be counted on 2 hands, over years of play.
The other evening I got quite a large balance at casumo,(no bonus) so I played the book and was doing great, I set myself a bottom line cashout and decided upon £4 spins.
Obviously not one decent base game hit or a bonus appeared. I did however cash out 2 decent amounts within a few day period.
Hear what your saying. And clearly you play a lot and have been slotting longer than me, but surely, why would they rig what's guaranteed to give them mega profit anyways?.
I need to have faith when I open a slot and play with my hard earned cash that it's legitimate, if for a second any proof of skullduggery was afoot I'd leave in a moment and never return to online slots.
Again great post and a interesting read.

 

[Playford7]

Low roller @ 100 x £1 stake = £100 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £1000

High roller @ 100 x £20 stake = £2000 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £20,000

I would think the odds of the bigger win are greatly reduced as the slot would have to accumulate a lot of losses from other people to pay out the sum in keeping with the rtp - well it makes sense to me.

This would also mean slots are not random but play in line with their mathematical monetary availability.

I do, in part, believe the server is more reliant on the outcome than the randomness of the spin.

It makes sense to me but probably not totally clear in what I am trying to get across to everyone else - I work with figures everyday

That's a very interesting point indeed.
And I'm no tin foil wearing, trump hating fool either!..
I must say I though I think you may be somwhere right in what you say.
I don't think the slots are rigged in the sense most people like to think, but as you put it there I do think you may possibly have a point. Nice post

 

[theapple]

Generally speaking gambling doesnt pay off. Naturally, highrolling pays off even less

Seriously now, the thing with highrolling (anything above min bet for me ) is that you really need decent bankroll for it because i suspect how having a bad (or horror) session when betting $7 a spin gets to you much quicker than playing on 20c bets does so you are usually more tilt prone too.

Losing 100 bets @ 20c still hurts, especially if your bankroll is small enough, but afterall its just $20. Losing 100-200 $7 bets quickly, with nothing to show of for it is not what most bankroll can endure and its also safe ticket to tiltland and last thing you want to do is play slots when on tilt I think that was very important thing to consider, even more so because new trend with releasing slots that have like 10-15% hit rate is a thing now.

I rarely bet over 0,60 per spin, and ive still had tons of decent cashouts (obviously not 10k cashouts but im still very happy with it). Heck once i made a mistake and deposited $20 on skillonnet site with some tiny bonus so i couldnt bet higher than 20 cents ! And i managed to cashout $350. by betting 20c for the whole duration of wagering.

My biggest cashout of almost $3k came from $20 deposit and max bet of 0,60 too. Obviously you need to hit some monsters to get there but for all i know if i were betting $1-$2 a spin i might never been able to even get a shot at those 1000x wins at 50c bets so its not that simple really. I also tried playing $1 - $2 from start, several times but i was never able to come close to my lowrolling starts, like ever so i quickly gave up on that idea.

with all that said, i think i just like spinning and i dont really care all that much if my 500x wins were at 30c or $1. Its not like i wouldnt like to win more, but i just dont care enough to raise bets like some other people do. I know it also means im not going to win tens of thousands because of it, but it also means im going to cashout more often and im perfectly happy with it.

i guess i have a perfect screenshot to show how i usually play



now i know that hit would be much better at something like $3,6 but quite often by the time you get a slot going you are good 200-300 bets down before you hit a few consecutive good hits, and most people dont have that big of a bankroll, or that good control to survive through $1k - $2k losses just like that, while losing $40 is something most of us can live with.

Plus i really believe stakes do matter, and until proven otherwise, im sticking with that thought. Im one of those suckers that thinks if somoene wins $1,000,000 on a slot im playing, it would affect my gameplay

I know how in theory, stakes shouldnt matter, but im yet to hear about a slot that has negative lifetime RTP (negative from publishers point of view). Imagine someone hitting 5000x-10000x win on $200 bet. Because slots are random and all that.
it would take 5-10 millions of dead 20 cents spins just for that slot to go back to 100% RTP. On the other hand, maybe thats why there are so many dead spins?

shit and i just wanted to say how i dont like highrolling. it was supposed to be one line reply. oh well.

 

[theapple]

That's a very interesting point indeed.
And I'm no tin foil wearing, trump hating fool either!..
I must say I though I think you may be somwhere right in what you say.
I don't think the slots are rigged in the sense most people like to think, but as you put it there I do think you may possibly have a point. Nice post

honestly since day one i was pretty much sure how slots are in one way or another compensated or else there would be slots with 750% lifetime RTP and a bunch of smaller casinos would be closing left and right.

 

[greylady]

I cannot get the randomness of any one spin and that the computer has no memory of the previous spin. If spins are so random, and I understand luck has a great deal to do with it as the outcome of the spin is generated as soon as you press the button, but my stats in one casino in particular all sit at between 25%-30% rtp on all games I play, that is just too consistent to indicate being random.

I am not stating anything is rigged but it doesn't add up and I can't make sense of it, even after months, it remains the same ...needless to say I seldom deposit there now except to test the waters so to speak.

 

[Jasminebed]

I meant to make a post with multiquotes and address a number of points.

But I chose to spend my afternoon drinking beer with my housemate. Ten dollars I will never see again, lol.

Still have $100 from my last $60 deposit meant to amuse me all afternoon.

And I find myself reluctant to lose it right now.

So without multiquotes and names, since I'm unwilling to go back and read everything, I'll address a couple of points from my point of view.

Yes, the slots play the the same at different denominations, with a few exceptions, mostly jackpot slots where you must either bet max lines or max bet to qualify. It was one of my earliest questions here at CM when I was pretty new to online. It's common in B&Ms for higher denomination slots to pay better. But unlike a landbased casino, you are not really taking a seat away from someone, which costs physical space. Internet bandwidth is cheap for casinos compared to physical rental space. Not so cheap that Videoslots did not choose to stagger their Weekend Booster or Race Winnings time so every player did not log at once and cause delays and conflicts. IMO a better solution that telling players to clear your cache and cookies when the servers are overloaded. I don't know this for a certain fact, but I rely on sources I consider reliable, coupled with knowledge of programs and servers.

Casinos love low rollers... kind of. Some love us more than others. The casino will make the exact same amount of money from 1000 players playing 20 cents a spin as one player playing 10 spins at $2. There are many more 20 cent players than $2 players.

Slot return to player are rarely just at one casino as far as an individual games goes, there are a few exclusive games at certain casinos.

Low rollers are more likely to take bonuses to extend playtime. Very few bonuses favour the player.

Casinos do not love every low roller. Processing transactions cost money. Some methods cost more than others. For some casinos that means a fee on deposits, on some others a fee on withdrawals, or one free a day/week. I've read far than five stories where low rollers were told by a casino that did not charge fees, that winning $20, withdrawing, and then depositing again within minutes, and then withdrawing, and deposting another ten was not acceptable to continue doing without a charge. It's actually one of the few legitimate reasons to have a pending period IMO (and it should not be lengthy). At a B&M I might cash out from a machine and put the slip in my purse, and use a fresh $20. Some casinos offer a funds in play or main wallet, very useful for players like that.

Casinos love high rollers. Why shouldn't they? If you deposit $100 a day instead of $20, you are 5x as valuable. If you deposit $100 a day betting twenty cents, you are a dream client. You have thousands in play.

The house does not make their money off your deposits, they make it off your bets. And they have many more bets placed than just yours, no matter how much or at what value you play.

Casino slots get close or more than the theorhetical number of spins. Math models are not perfect. About 7 years ago I spent many many hours reading and learning about Pseuodo Randon Number Generators, and spend hours compiling some kind of tutotorial and had a hard drive crash. I certainly did not entirely understand everything. I understood quite a bit about real RNGs having worked with Cryptology during the time of the Gulf War and computer encryption systems.

A million trials is not considered sufficient for a RNG with 10,000 possible outcomes, although should come within a certain range. Games like Thunderstruck have upwards of 5 million combinations, and some of the newer games, I can't do that kind of math.

If a casino wants to fleece their players, they are not doing it by cheating games and RNGs. They are doing it by delayed payouts to prey on gamblers' weaknesses, bonus offers that are flat out disadvangeous, or outright failure to pay.

Players encounter fees too that are not imposed by the casino. So if I'm facing a foreign wire charge of $14, I'm not cashing out $100. Which means I keep playing, and more than likely losing.

I can say with 100 percent certainty if all my bets since winning big last year were at $180 per spin, I'd be broke long before now.

Now that's an individual experience, your mileage may vary.

But I still maintain that once in a while you gotta push it. You planned on losing it in the first place.

If I looked through past records, I could probably tell how many 1000x bets I've had. Never had one 5000x, and I've played a lot for many years. No individual player, no matter how dedicated is going to achieve the TRTP over many millions of spins. And if they did, they are still losing.

I've not found another passtime where I'm likely to have my fun and come out with something once in a while than gambling however. I have no musical talent and can't go busk.

From a casino point of view, those of us betting $2-$5 a spin at times are not even high rollers.

I think we get a fair game to be honest, or I would not have been playing so many years. They provide a service and make money from it, and we pay for it. How much money we pay for it is down to us. But for the casino $100 in bets in the same, whether it is 20 cent bets or $100 bets.

If none of it made any sense to you, it kept me from playing for 2 hours, so I'm already ahead

 

[Harry_BKK]

I meant to make a post with multiquotes and address a number of points.

But I chose to spend my afternoon drinking beer with my housemate. Ten dollars I will never see again, lol.

Still have $100 from my last $60 deposit meant to amuse me all afternoon.

And I find myself reluctant to lose it right now.

So without multiquotes and names, since I'm unwilling to go back and read everything, I'll address a couple of points from my point of view.

Yes, the slots play the the same at different denominations, with a few exceptions, mostly jackpot slots where you must either bet max lines or max bet to qualify. It was one of my earliest questions here at CM when I was pretty new to online. It's common in B&Ms for higher denomination slots to pay better. But unlike a landbased casino, you are not really taking a seat away from someone, which costs physical space. Internet bandwidth is cheap for casinos compared to physical rental space. Not so cheap that Videoslots did not choose to stagger their Weekend Booster or Race Winnings time so every player did not log at once and cause delays and conflicts. IMO a better solution that telling players to clear your cache and cookies when the servers are overloaded. I don't know this for a certain fact, but I rely on sources I consider reliable, coupled with knowledge of programs and servers.

Casinos love low rollers... kind of. Some love us more than others. The casino will make the exact same amount of money from 1000 players playing 20 cents a spin as one player playing 10 spins at $2. There are many more 20 cent players than $2 players.

Slot return to player are rarely just at one casino as far as an individual games goes, there are a few exclusive games at certain casinos.

Low rollers are more likely to take bonuses to extend playtime. Very few bonuses favour the player.

Casinos do not love every low roller. Processing transactions cost money. Some methods cost more than others. For some casinos that means a fee on deposits, on some others a fee on withdrawals, or one free a day/week. I've read far than five stories where low rollers were told by a casino that did not charge fees, that winning $20, withdrawing, and then depositing again within minutes, and then withdrawing, and deposting another ten was not acceptable to continue doing without a charge. It's actually one of the few legitimate reasons to have a pending period IMO (and it should not be lengthy). At a B&M I might cash out from a machine and put the slip in my purse, and use a fresh $20. Some casinos offer a funds in play or main wallet, very useful for players like that.

Casinos love high rollers. Why shouldn't they? If you deposit $100 a day instead of $20, you are 5x as valuable. If you deposit $100 a day betting twenty cents, you are a dream client. You have thousands in play.

The house does not make their money off your deposits, they make it off your bets. And they have many more bets placed than just yours, no matter how much or at what value you play.

Casino slots get close or more than the theorhetical number of spins. Math models are not perfect. About 7 years ago I spent many many hours reading and learning about Pseuodo Randon Number Generators, and spend hours compiling some kind of tutotorial and had a hard drive crash. I certainly did not entirely understand everything. I understood quite a bit about real RNGs having worked with Cryptology during the time of the Gulf War and computer encryption systems.

A million trials is not considered sufficient for a RNG with 10,000 possible outcomes, although should come within a certain range. Games like Thunderstruck have upwards of 5 million combinations, and some of the newer games, I can't do that kind of math.

If a casino wants to fleece their players, they are not doing it by cheating games and RNGs. They are doing it by delayed payouts to prey on gamblers' weaknesses, bonus offers that are flat out disadvangeous, or outright failure to pay.

Players encounter fees too that are not imposed by the casino. So if I'm facing a foreign wire charge of $14, I'm not cashing out $100. Which means I keep playing, and more than likely losing.

I can say with 100 percent certainty if all my bets since winning big last year were at $180 per spin, I'd be broke long before now.

Now that's an individual experience, your mileage may vary.

But I still maintain that once in a while you gotta push it. You planned on losing it in the first place.

If I looked through past records, I could probably tell how many 1000x bets I've had. Never had one 5000x, and I've played a lot for many years. No individual player, no matter how dedicated is going to achieve the TRTP over many millions of spins. And if they did, they are still losing.

I've not found another passtime where I'm likely to have my fun and come out with something once in a while than gambling however. I have no musical talent and can't go busk.

From a casino point of view, those of us betting $2-$5 a spin at times are not even high rollers.

I think we get a fair game to be honest, or I would not have been playing so many years. They provide a service and make money from it, and we pay for it. How much money we pay for it is down to us. But for the casino $100 in bets in the same, whether it is 20 cent bets or $100 bets.

If none of it made any sense to you, it kept me from playing for 2 hours, so I'm already ahead

Sorry Jazzy but I will have to disagree on one point.

A player spinning always at minimum bet will deposit $10 - $20 / day or maybe $50 - $100 on a good day after he/she had a withdrawal --> profit for the casino, let's assume the player manages wagers totaling x10 the deposits = $4.00 - $40.00 if we take an average RTP of 96%.

A medium rolling player will deposit $100 -$200, up to $500 / day --> profit for the casino, again x10 total wagering = $40 - $200.

A high rollers depositing $5K in one day --> profit for the casino, wagers equaling x10 = $2,000

On top, a low roller is more likely to take a bonus with every deposit, which costs the casino a percentage of their profits.

In my view:
- low rollers is more or less a break even for the casino, in many cases it is a loss for the casinos (but good for their popularity as the more players they have the more the word spreads)
- medium rollers pay for all casino overheads
- high rollers - provide the profit

Back to randomness, i stopped posting in Trancemonkeys thread as I got the feeling he became a shill for the industry. Anything even just slightly negative players would bring up would be responded with one of the following: sample too small, players perception, games are tested (not mentioning that the game providers/casino operators are founding members or shareholders of most testing houses or are the main/only customers of them) and a few more.

I presented him with a graph of 50-odd bust outs to prove to him that the games will show you a 2 scatter teaser on the last 10 spins before bust. Answer was of course, sample to small. Well, I meanwhile increased that sample to over 1,000 bust outs (hell of a detective work going through each of my sessions) and the results are exactly the same but I can't bother to post it again as I will get another excuse for an answer. But how can that be random??? How can that happen if not some balance information goes to the game server?? And contrary to what we were told, actually more like it was preached to us for years, there is much more information going to the game server than just a request for a "random" spin result.

It happens even in the Free Battles at VS. Do your 100 spins and if the result is not great, you will see exactly that chance for a bonus round on the last 10 spins whereas you didn't see "diddly squat" in the 30, 40, 50 previous spins.

I might add as my last point: we are talking about an industry that is collecting and analyzing every shred of data / detail they are getting from our activity on the games, be it casinos or game providers.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Oh, but NotEnt will!

Start DoA with a balance of £4 and play at 0.09 an you will have no trouble at all seeing scatters or a bonus round.

Start DoA with a balance of £25-30 at 0.09 and see how many scatter or bonuses you see...every single time without fail it seems to "counterbalance" what you are trying to do (Which is trying to give yourself more chances at a wildline to put it simply).

Hell yes, DOA is fantastic to play with $2-3 from some FS as you will mostly get hundreds of spins @ $0.09 from it.

 

[slotter999]

One of my theories is that slots change their pay structures to be more volatile at higher stakes meaning they can still display this machine has an RTP of X whilst providing a vastly different game.

According to trancemonkey this would be both entirely possible and entirely legal.

I think slot providers should be forced to make their slot performance data publicly available. I cannot think of a less transparent industry when it comes to financial products. One day in the future we'll look back in amazement at the current regulatory regime.

 

[Naok777]

Seriously now, the thing with highrolling (anything above min bet for me ) is that you really need decent bankroll for it because i suspect how having a bad (or horror) session when betting $7 a spin gets to you much quicker than playing on 20c bets does so you are usually more tilt prone too.

Not just that, but you also have to consider the streaky behaviour of slots and the fact that spreading your deposits across a longer time could influence it as well.

Lets say you have £500 to spare, you deposit it all at once and go in betting lets say £3 a spin, a perfectly average bad streak will annihilate the balance in minutes.

But if you spread those same £500 over 10x £50 deposits over a couple days and only bet £0.30 a spin instead you would need 10 consecutive losing streaks, the risk of which is obviously lower than for just one bad streak.
Of course that comes with the trade off of decimating the max win potential and if that is worth the trade off is another question.

 

[aceking123]

Not just that, but you also have to consider the streaky behaviour of slots and the fact that spreading your deposits across a longer time could influence it as well.

Lets say you have £500 to spare, you deposit it all at once and go in betting lets say £3 a spin, a perfectly average bad streak will annihilate the balance in minutes.

But if you spread those same £500 over 10x £50 deposits over a couple days and only bet £0.30 a spin instead you would need 10 consecutive losing streaks, the risk of which is obviously lower than for just one bad streak.
Of course that comes with the trade off of decimating the max win potential and if that is worth the trade off is another question.

Again this would be true for chances ( improving longer play doesn't mean you're going to win just prolongs your time playing you clearly can still bust out even doing this.

problem is providers are & have stated it does not matter what stakes are played in makes no odds on winning or losing, so in theory you could win from the £500 , what us old players are saying is these things don't happen after a awful lot of testing , again impho these higher stakes 99 times out of a 100 always do the same thing dead spin dead spin maybe a odd feature paying well below normal win rate.

Again if you drop the stakes on these slots the game comes alive 8 out of 10 times , its been seen here many many times , take book of dead played this a fair bit now , just before busting out on a £300 quid deposit or more only to get down too last few pence , you try to zero out bang in it comes that feature that you was chasing for the last 20 mins.

This has happened so many times i've lost count , that cannot be just bad luck , i would think there's far more to that.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Lower stakes is no better than higher stakes except obviously you're wagering a lot less money and the amount you will lose longterm is directly related to the amount you wager (96% return to player is 96% of how much you wager) so the amount you lose will be less . It doesn't give you a "better chance to win" though . It's the same chance just the amounts involved whether winning or losing are higher with the higher betsize

 

[goatwack]

People are blurring 'general slot odds' with 'relative betsize wins'......everyone knows that the house edge wins in the end, that much is certain.

The fact remains that doing e.g 100 spins @ 40p and then doing 100 @ £4 will see your RTP take a predictable pummelling, without fail, every time. It can't just be coincidence when attempting this with real funds. And no, Mickey Mouse Demo Mode doesn't count!

 

[SlotGrinder]

It's easy to lose £50 from a £100 balance at 40p spins in a few hundred spins and getting no bonus . Yes you prob think the slot is cold but it's not remarkable . Now deposit £500 and play it at £4 spins and lose the whole £500 with no bonus you will feel its rigged and slots never pay at higher stakes - even though its actually no different from the 40p spins result

Ive had lots of times where Ive raised my bet and hit a bonus or w/e I don't think it's at all true that slots play so much better at lowstakes

 

[lockinlove]

$13.50 bet.

Shocker not even 1x bonus

 

[Adam Randall]

I won $1600 on Jurassic world spending 90 cents about a month ago on Gone Wild, basically first time I have really played them

I double clicked so did not even get the build up, just instantly there it is $1600 that was not there before

Basically every single one of the icons was wild - I do not think I was in a bonus round, just normal play

Thought, gee that was easy, imagine what I can win if I bet $7 a go so did that and lost the lot plus another $1200 on top before I realized that the larger amounts do not really seem to help

The wins just do not seem proportional to the bet size for some reason

 

[goatwack]

To think, imagine if all slots played completely random, and also irrespective of betsize, how fun online slotting would actually be.

Well at least for the player, for a time..... dozens of casinos would go bankrupt I'm sure

 

[dave1888]

If you are going to high roll at all do it on quickspin games...frequent pays and no games with the masses of potential(providers like N-E,MG,Playngo etc have) so you can usually expect a decent bonus every 3rd one...

 

[Berger]

I knew that !
Joke, just don't have money to be a high roller )

 

[suchfun]

high balling is not for the weak of heart,I do anywhere from $1 to $100,I can tell you my runs on $100 or anywhere near it suck then lower your bet to $1 and magic hits for 5 bucks lol.It's all entertainment so if dont like it dont play i guess,but random and they dont know what bet you playing is a joke and the think we are stupid