ladygaga vs Vavada Casino

[ladygaga]

Hello!

The day before yesterday after I’ve made a withdrawal request of 1200$ from my account I’ve got a demand for my person verification from Vavada casino manager. Those 1200 $ was only a part of the full amount 14077.81 $ on my account. I’ve sent them all documents they asked me to send. Fifteen minutes later I’ve got a message from them with the next text: “Your account has been blocked with no right to restore. You are not allowed to create accounts and play in our casino, because you used prohibited tactics. Your winnings and deposit are cancelled because of breaking the casino rules.” I haven’t got any more explanations from the manager.

The full story is below. The November 23rd 2021 year I’ve registered on the web-site of online casino Vavada, license number №8048/JAZ2017-035 for the purpose of gambling Black Jack in live casino. Registration was made by me on the website vavadaft.com. The access to this web-site was performed by me from my personal computer from my flat in Minsk, Belarus. That was my first registration in Vavada casino. I had never registered on this platform before and never played there before. None of my family members never create accounts in Vavada casino. That day I’ve made my first deposit in the amount of 3000 $ using cryptocurrency USDT. I have been credited with a bonus in the amount of 1000 $ according to the rules of casino. The first deposit was lost very quickly, so I’ve made the second one in the amount of 5000 $ using the same way. Perhaps it has been found that all my money were located on the bonus account, because my bonus was still active despite the fact that live-casino has no relation to bonuses and all bonuses are played only in slots. In one moment all my money turned out on the bonus account.

I’ve connected with support team and I’ve been informed that those are the rules of casino and if I cancel the bonus, then all the amount burns out, it means the bonus itself and all other money. Thus they turned all deposit money from real cash to bonus account and told me that I had no more real money, I only had bonus account with the amount of approximately 3400 $ at that moment. I remind you that I’ve already made total deposit of 8000 $ and got 1000 $ bonus, which had to be wagered for turning to real cash. So according to that logics I’ve forced to play back the bonus and to make bets in the amount of 35000 $ (1000$ x 35WAGER) in slots just for taking back my own money. Finally after bonus wagering it became 14077.81 $ on my real money account. There were +8000 $ my deposit, -1500 $ the result of Black Jack gambling, +1000 $ “welcome bonus” that turned out to real money and +6602.81 $ my total winning in slots (in fact I’ve been forced to play). I played the equal bets in automatic play mode, which means I didn’t take active actions and hadn’t no impact on the game result.

Further, after wagering the bonus I’ve decided not to play in this casino anymore, because I had strong doubt about the honesty of this casino. I’ve made a request for money withdrawal. In spite of there is a claim on their web-site about no need of personal verification for deposit and withdrawal, I’ve been requested to provide my passport and selfie. After providing specified documents, they instantly announced that “I used ‘prohibited tactics’ and all my winnings will be cancelled and my deposit also will not be refunded. The account is closed forever and the decision is final. The access to my account is limited.” The meaning of the term ‘prohibited tactics’ has not been explained to me. The exact reason of blocking me account hasn’t been articulated me well enough. The reason of refusal to refund my deposit also wasn’t presented to me.

The total time spent by me at the tables of Black Jack in live casino from EVOLUTION provider was approximately six hours and the result of the game was a loss of 1500 $. All other money on the account were the deposit and winnings in slot machines. There was no way to use any ‘prohibited tactics’ in my opinion. In this case I see wrongful activities by casino VAVADA. I ask for your help in solving this problem and providing explanations. I also would like to get back all withheld funds in the full amount of 14077.81 $, because all the winnings were legal and I strictly followed the rules of casino all the time during the game.

 

[sapit222]

Couldnt find much info about that casino.

Curaçao Master License 8048/JAZ (Antillephone N.V) - Casinomeister

 

[The Dude]

I would recommend submitting a PAB here and hopefully we might be able to find out what went wrong.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Curacao casino in shady dealings shocker. I hope you get your money.

 

[ladygaga]

I would recommend submitting a PAB here and hopefully we might be able to find out what went wrong.

Thank you for offer and advice! As I understand this casino mostly aims on CIS market. I found one site in RU area (affgamblers) negotiating with online casinos on cases like this, at least they have VAVADA representative there. I filed application through them as I believe this information on CIS area will bring more effect on this casino reputation (if this word is applicable here). As it follows from your site's rules this limits me in filing claim via you at the moment. After case resolution successful or not I will decide what to do next, highly likely will apply to Antillephone as well. Anyway I will keep you updated here.

 

[abuyang]

So you deposited 3000 and got 1000 bonus. Then you played Live Bj until ZERO balance. How was that possible if the bonus balance is available for the play using slots games only?

 

[ladygaga]

So you deposited 3000 and got 1000 bonus. Then you played Live Bj until ZERO balance. How was that possible if the bonus balance is available for the play using slots games only?

That's really ankward. VAVADA allows to use and play bonus money at live tables, but no bonus wager counted and all winning bets (including your original bets on this round) come to bonus account. Finally you are in a trap - all your real money moved to bonus account and you must clear the initial bonus to get your own money back. Otherwise if you cancel bonus you will loose everything that on a bonus account. If they allowed to cancel the bonus I would happily leave the casino immediately.

To continue ... Finally they alleged me in card-counting and stated the decission is final. Yet again

Games results:
1. +8000 USD - deposit
2. -1500 USD - live blackjack game
3. +1000 USD - first deposit bonus
4. +6500 USD - total result in slots

Slot game was somehow forced but this not a matter of this case anyway. Also they stated they perfomed some investigation via EVOLUTION that is obviously false statement as they didn't have time for that. They banned me in few hours after cashout request and 20 minutes after identification documents provided. No any warnings during the game was raised to me and no access to any provider or games was restricted. What is the chance that EVOLUTION put on hold everything they had on a schedule and rushed to perform "investigation" initiated by some garbage CIS casino with Curacao license to help them steel the money. It's not even funny.

So under card-counting allegations they seized everything in absolutely rude manner. How it corresponds with the law? What is overall industry opinion in card counting? Do you have similar cases, is it possible to appeal via this site in this situation? AFFGAMBLER seems to be affiliated structure. They immediately took casino's side stating "don't do what you do", claim rejected. That's it.

What chances do I have if I apply to license issuer and lawsuit the casino?

 

[abuyang]

I have just read the Vavada’s response on affgambler website and it is ridiculous. They accused you in card counting. But according to the information you provided here, your gameplay on Live Bj resulted in overall minus and all the winnings you got were from the slots play. And they confiscated both your winnings and 8000 usd deposits.
File a complaint with this website. Affgambler is a joke.

 

[ladygaga]

Here is VAVADA responce via email on the case:

=====================================
Good day! We checked all the necessary information and found that our managers received a request from Evolution Gaming, which reported on the use of your method of counting cards. Any such specific game tactics is prohibited in many casinos, including ours. In this regard, the identification procedure was requested (according to term 5.3, we have the right to request it or a video identification at any time), after checking all the information received and on the basis of terms 16.1.6 and 16.5 it was decided to refuse your further use of services and withhold all the money.
=====================================
VAVADA T&C:

5.3. To verify your private information the Company reserves the right to request documents of identification and/or video-identification. The Company has the right to suspend your Personal Account until the required documents are provided to us, and/or terminate your account in full if you fail to provide the Company with the requested documentation.

16.1.6. using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering.

16.5. The Company has the right at any time without prior notice to refuse access to the Website or to suspend access to the Personal Account if we suspect fraudulent activity. We have no obligation to return or compensate you for the funds deposited to your account at that time. We may report to the proper authorities and you are under obligation to cooperate with the Company in the investigation process.

 

[Nate]

They are bullshitting you about the Evolution Gaming part.

Please PAB - they seem to be a rogue operation.

Nate

 

[ladygaga]

Could you clarify your saying about Evolution? Do you mean Evolution never performs such actions on players? Or it takes much longer time in case of casino request?

PS. I'm going to file PAB afer this message so I'll be limited on commenting the situation.

 

[philderby]

Yikes! Thats a chunk of change right there

 

[Nate]

Could you clarify your saying about Evolution? Do you mean Evolution never performs such actions on players? Or it takes much longer time in case of casino request?

PS. I'm going to file PAB afer this message so I'll be limited on commenting the situation.

If you were card counting - Why would they investigate you for a loss?

According to your post, you never won on Table games - You won on Slots. But - As per your last post, please refrain from replying or posting until your PAB is resolved or has an outcome.

Nate

 

[VAVADA]

Hello! I am a representative of casino Vavada. I would like to inform you that the player’s actions were illegal within framework of the game on our website, that was reported to us by provider Evolution Gaming, in which it was reported and supported with proofs that the player used card counting method.

We are ready to provide all evidence of violations of the rules to the site administrator.

 

[maxd]

Hello,

Please obtain the proper certification from @Casinomeister before representing yourself as a company official on the forums.

Apologies for the intrusiveness but we feel these steps are necessary to protect the integrity of our forums and the security of our player membership.

My other duty here at Casinomeister is to manage our Player Arbitration service and in that capacity I have received a complaint from the player regarding your casino. Please check your Private Messages regarding this matter.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,
Max Drayman
Forum Co-Moderator, sussexmskpartnershipeast.com

 

[ladygaga]

According to your post, you never won on Table games - You won on Slots. But - As per your last post, please refrain from replying or posting until your PAB is resolved or has an outcome.

As I'm granted permission to keep on posting on my case, some more questions.

I still don't see direct prohibition of card counting in Vavada casino T&C. They say forbidden "using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering". The key word is "ILLEGAL" here. Is it correct to state that casino's terms were violated in case of card counting thus equalizing "card counting" to "illegal profit strategy"?

You can easly find cases here where players were accused in using "martingale" yet it does not change the house edge or RTP. Nonetheless casino claimed this strategy as "prohibited" and "illegal" and withhold funds. So how to understand what strategy is legal and what is not? Their T&C are extremely vague and used by unfair casinos to withhold player's funds by no reason.

So what you think is "card counting" equals to "illegal profit strategy or money laundering"?

 

[maxd]

IMO the salient point here is that you are talking about a Curacao-licensed casino. Curacao does not (generally) involve itself in what Terms their casinos use nor how they are enforced. In other words such decisions are largely up to the individual casino. So, as far as your case goes, "illegal" is semantics and it means whatever the casino decides it means.

Is that morally right and fair? No, obviously not, but what authority are you going to take your moral outrage to? I'll tell you: there isn't one, unless you can afford to take them to court (recent events have shown that that can have some effect) or publicly shame them into reversing themselves and deciding in your favour (seldom successful but not unheard of).

The situation in your case is that the games provider alerted the casino to, and provided evidence of, advantage play and warned the casino to take action. And so the casino did. If you're keen on fighting that you're free to do so, of course, but my experience tells me you better start saving whatever lucky charms you favour because you're going to need all the help you can get.

 

[ladygaga]

Max,

I understand your point that "rules are whatever they are in Curasao" and basically I'm talking about the same. If they strictly put "card counting" on T&C then it would be OK. Still not fully legal requirement but "rule" anyway. What they have now is just a vague term that gives very wide field of manipulation. They have right to state ANY player's activity solely on their discretion as "illegal" and seize the money. To be straight what's on T&C is "at any time we can steel your money". Here I'm not agree it's a moral aspect - it's a criminal act.

As for mystery Evolution's report that I have never seen... By the way if this an evidence of my case why I can't see it? I played at the same time in another Curasao casino. I played blackjack with a total turnover of 500k USD. They put my play under investigation after "Evolution report". Bet audition took long 2 weeks and finally they said I'm clear. Compare to Vavada where they claimed "illegal strategies" right after few hours of play with no bet audition. Yet all my winnings in Vavada come from slot machines only.

Vavada always been a gray-zone casino with rigged slots RTP and other "legal strategies" of making business. Unfortunately I found out this too late. This just a revenge I suddenly got top combination at slots. Nothing more. You either loose on rigged slots with RTP down to 80-85% or they just steel your money. At certain point I wanted to stop playing and quit forever but they told me I must wager the bonus otherwise I loose everything. So I had to bet over 35k USD on slots to wager the bonus and occasionally won. And they become angry with that. All those fairy tales about Evolution like you colleague said is a bullshit.

This is not the end from my side anyway.

 

[LuckyAlex]

Hello guys! I have a similar case with Vavada casino. My account was blocked with the ridiculous reason. The casino claimed that ostensibly Evolution had informed them that I had made "opposite bets". As I played only Black Jack, I even don't understand what does it mean. They refer to the letter from Evolution but they don't show it to me. Is it any opportunity to check the authenticity of this letter? I've already messaged Evolution few days ago. So now I'm waiting for their answer. Does the Casinomeister sourse have an opportunity to connect with Evolution provider about the question of the existence of that letter?

 

[VAVADA]

Good afternoon. We discussed all the details with the representative of the site and provided all the evidence and a letter from the provider.

 

[VAVADA]

Hello guys! I have a similar case with Vavada casino. My account was blocked with the ridiculous reason. The casino claimed that ostensibly Evolution had informed them that I had made "opposite bets". As I played only Black Jack, I even don't understand what does it mean. They refer to the letter from Evolution but they don't show it to me. Is it any opportunity to check the authenticity of this letter? I've already messaged Evolution few days ago. So now I'm waiting for their answer. Does the Casinomeister sourse have an opportunity to connect with Evolution provider about the question of the existence of that letter?

Hello, we never take actions against a player without a corresponding notification from the provider or visible violations of the site. If you encounter such a situation, please send us your account details by email to check your problem. We, like you, are interested in solving this problem, we are waiting for your feedback.

 

[LuckyAlex]

From my point of view, the casino is trying to illegally take money from people, referring to the provider. I will explain how this happens. I play a near-zero game and count cards. Let's imagine I lost. That’s an excellent result for the casino. If I win, the casino doesn’t pay and refers to the fact that the provider told them something. A win-win strategy, so to speak.
If someone's interested see "Vavada Casino - Player’s account has been suspended" at Casinoguru.

 

[LuckyAlex]

A small addition to the portrait of the casino. The rules say: “Wagering a deposit bonus x35. During the active bonus, money from the real balance is transferred to the bonus balance when the bets are won. If you try to cancel the bonus, the entire bonus balance will be burned.” Well, I signed up for it. But where is a paragraph in the rules about bonus wagering is possible only in slots? Thus you make a deposit, activate a bonus, play in a live casino. The money flowed from the real account to the bonus balance. The bonus can be canceled only with the loss of those winnings that were already there. The bonus is not laundered, welcome to the slots. So, the rules written with insufficient information make it possible for the casino to deceive people who are not yet aware of how vavada casino conducts its business.

 

[LuckyAlex]

I was not lucky at all and I lost my deposits in a couple of hours. The topic starter was much more fortunate, he lost only a part of his deposit on the blackjack table and was very lucky in slots. In my case, the casino decided to give me cashback in the amount of 572 dollars, which still need to be won back in x5 slots. As for the case of topic starter, the casino does not want to pay simply because the money is completely different. In his case the casino is ready to fight for the money. May be the player will give up and the case will not reach the court.

 

[dunover]

Basically the word 'legal' is completely pointless regarding casinos that have no valid jurisdiction, regulator or legal framework within which they operate. So 'legal' simply means whatever they arbitrarily decide they allow, and 'illegal' is what they don't. The 'legal' word probably only exists in their terms because they were copied from legitimate authorized sites originally that are operated or structured within a legal framework. Terms are meaningless in most Cure-a-cow casinos as whether they honour their terms, pay you or not is entirely at their whim. It is not illegal to use Martingale or card count but in the case of the latter they can ban you, in the case of a land-based you would normally keep your winnings up until the point you were clocked, but it's their right to refuse more play.

You've got as much chance of recompense in the Cup-o-cocoa legal system as we have of getting Putin to extradite the Salisbury poisoners to the UK.

 

[ladygaga]

Good afternoon. We discussed all the details with the representative of the site and provided all the evidence and a letter from the provider.

Evidences of what? Of card-counting? It's not a big deal. If you asked me directly I would admit that card-counting was in use. No need to ask Evolution. The fact is that card-counting is not a "strategy for illegal profit" and it's not on a "forbidden list" directly on your T&C. I repeat again you have intentionally vague rules to accuse players in whatever on your deсission under cover of Curasao license - easy money. Evolution report doesn't put you on a legal side in this case. Anyway even under Curasao jurisdiction possible to lawsuit unfair casinos.

Totally agree with posts above, In my case they seized winnings from other games and deposit yet I lost at blackjack. No matter - if you won you are a cheater. They just don't pay anything to anyone.

I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.

 

[maxd]

... I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.

Your PAB said no such thing. You complained that the casino had confiscated your money unfairly because the Terms made no specific reference to card counting. The casino provided good evidence that you had been tagged as an advantage player and the Terms prohibit such play. On these grounds the PAB failed. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ladygaga]

The casino provided good evidence that you had been tagged as an advantage player and the Terms prohibit such play.

It's a pity you don't follow my logic. There is no such prohibation on Vavada T&C. Otherwise you just say white is black. No sense to repeat once again. Unfortunately I was advised wrong site for arbitration. I think you shall update Casinomeister's philosophy page.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Any casino that bans someone for using Martingale is idiotic as it don't work, sooner or later the player will lose any short term profits they have gained from a run of bad "math"

As for card counting, I doubt any player can get any meaningful advantage from that either due to they use 50%+ penetration on live games which makes it near impossible to get any kind of real edge, which by your own admission of losing 1500 on BJ kinda proves my point.

 

[maxd]

... There is no such prohibation on Vavada T&C. ...

But there is:

16. FRAUD, CHEATING, COLLUSION AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITY
16.1. The following activities are forbidden and constitute a material breach of the Terms of Use:
...
16.1.6. using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering.
...
16.5. The Company has the right at any time without prior notice to refuse access to the Website or to suspend access to the Personal Account if we suspect fraudulent activity. We have no obligation to return or compensate you for the funds deposited to your account at that time. We may report to the proper authorities and you are under obligation to cooperate with the Company in the investigation process.
...

If you choose to see that as not being applicable to your advantage play techniques that's your business but they did, their provider did, and I don't disagree. Hence the outcome of your PAB.

Unfortunately I was advised wrong site for arbitration.

Sorry you feel that way but I remind you that it cost you nothing but a few days time. Somehow I think you'll recover.

Given the situation and the outcome I've changed the thread title to level the field.

Any casino that bans someone for using Martingale is idiotic ....

That may well be but the point is that the Terms warn against using advantage play aka "special gaming strategies". If you accept those Terms and then break them you are likely to end up suffering the consequences. The moral of that story is "if you don't like the Terms then don't play there". Moaning about the Terms after you've accepted and broken them is just as idiotic as the Terms may have been in the first place.

 

[Reelsoffun]

I don't disagree with you there max, but "special gaming strategies" is a tad vague and could be anything, who do they think they are the UKGC its similar to how they would word stuff LOL

If a player loses 2 or 3 hands in a row then raises bet and wins then goes back to original bet is that considered special? I often play like that and probably most players do but it don't mean your card counting or using martingale. Its effectively a unfair term and a player couldn't really play hunches with fear of being branded one. Crazy really. Just seems like one of those terms thats there as a get out plan for any winning player.

Like i said I agree with what you say but just because its in their terms dont always mean it could be upheld in law for example. Many contracts and terms that were considered unfair have been void in UK courts for example, not that it applies to this case obviously.

 

[The Dude]

Hello! I am a representative of casino Vavada. I would like to inform you that the player’s actions were illegal within framework of the game on our website, that was reported to us by provider Evolution Gaming, in which it was reported and supported with proofs that the player used card counting method.

We are ready to provide all evidence of violations of the rules to the site administrator.

Your account is in the moderated member section. You need to provide us with a work related email address - this was made clear when you signed up in the forum. Casino reps are not permitted to use gmail accounts. Please provide this to us. Thank you.

I don't disagree with you there max, but "special gaming strategies" is a tad vague and could be anything, who do they think they are the UKGC its similar to how they would word stuff LOL

If a player loses 2 or 3 hands in a row then raises bet and wins then goes back to original bet is that considered special? I often play like that and probably most players do but it don't mean your card counting or using martingale. Its effectively a unfair term and a player couldn't really play hunches with fear of being branded one. Crazy really. Just seems like one of those terms thats there as a get out plan for any winning player.

Like i said I agree with what you say but just because its in their terms dont always mean it could be upheld in law for example. Many contracts and terms that were considered unfair have been void in UK courts for example, not that it applies to this case obviously.

We can talk all day until the cows come home on what are fair or unfair terms. The thing is these terms are quite standard, the software provider and the casino claim the player violated these terms, and that's it.

If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.

 

[ladygaga]

If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.

What to do if I agree to them but don't treat "card counting" as "strategy for illegal profit"? And noone in the world does except unfair casinos and Max who equalizes "card counting" to "strategy for illegal profit".

 

[abuyang]

Do you want to say that they use fake slots at Vavada? Otherwise, how can they rig the licensed slots’ RTP?

Vavada always been a gray-zone casino with rigged slots RTP and other "legal strategies" of making business. Unfortunately I found out this too late. This just a revenge I suddenly got top combination at slots. Nothing more. You either loose on rigged slots with RTP down to 80-85% or they just steel your money. At certain point I wanted to stop playing and quit forever but they told me I must wager the bonus otherwise I loose everything. So I had to bet over 35k USD on slots to wager the bonus and occasionally won. And they become angry with that. All those fairy tales about Evolution like you colleague said is a bullshit.

This is not the end from my side anyway.

 

[VAVADA]

Evidences of what? Of card-counting? It's not a big deal. If you asked me directly I would admit that card-counting was in use. No need to ask Evolution. The fact is that card-counting is not a "strategy for illegal profit" and it's not on a "forbidden list" directly on your T&C. I repeat again you have intentionally vague rules to accuse players in whatever on your deсission under cover of Curasao license - easy money. Evolution report doesn't put you on a legal side in this case. Anyway even under Curasao jurisdiction possible to lawsuit unfair casinos.

Totally agree with posts above, In my case they seized winnings from other games and deposit yet I lost at blackjack. No matter - if you won you are a cheater. They just don't pay anything to anyone.

I hope this casino at least be put on a warning list. But from my point of view this is rogue list candidate. Here I just ask arbitrary service to officially claim Vavada's behavior is out of normal casino operation. Casinomeister shall say it straight without references to "bad jurisdiction". That's the thing I meant when filing PAB.

Hello! I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes. Card counting action was found unfair by the provider and that's was communicated to us.

 

[VAVADA]

Your account is in the moderated member section. You need to provide us with a work related email address - this was made clear when you signed up in the forum. Casino reps are not permitted to use gmail accounts. Please provide this to us. Thank you.


We can talk all day until the cows come home on what are fair or unfair terms. The thing is these terms are quite standard, the software provider and the casino claim the player violated these terms, and that's it.

If you don't like the terms, then don't agree to them.

Hello. We've provided our official mail address [email protected] in the dialog with the moderator. We made the whole conversation from this address.

 

[LuckyAlex]

Do you want to say that they use fake slots at Vavada? Otherwise, how can they rig the licensed slots’ RTP?

GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license - Page 9 - Casinomeister Forum

 

[ladygaga]

Hello! I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes. Card counting action was found unfair by the provider and that's was communicated to us.

In what relation Evolution to my funds in vavada casino. No matter what they reported you must follow your own T&C and you but not the Evolution takes decision. If you don't want to see card counters in your casino just put it clearly on the T&C.. Evolution ordered you to steel my money? Be responsible for your actions, Yet again - no winnings were get from "unfair" technics. You seized FAIR winnings achieved on slots and deposit, In what relation this is to Evolution report?

 

[syntynyt]

What a joke Evilution is. Offering a flawed game and punishing those intelligent enough that are taking the challenge to dissect the game, in a LIVE environment. The unfair advantage wasnt even an advantage if the player LOST. The only reason for the report was to stir the shit between the player and casino and they succeeded, in an attempt to protect their client from the 'evils' of one smart customer. Dreadful company. If you offer a flawed-by-design game surely you take countermeasures by for example moving the player to another table randomly after X number of hands or change the decks more often, its a live game as it happens in the landbased casino.
I will keep this thread in mind next time i decide to donate money thru spinning to BTG and other sellout companies that joined ship with this conglomerate of questionable ethics laughable company.
You should be paid everything 100%. And never spend a cent again with: netent, redtiger, btg all part of evolution shady network. Good luck!

 

[ladygaga]

What a joke Evilution is.

Thanks a lot for your support! I really appreciate!

Things became even more funny as I was just noticed by vavada themselfs, that firstly accusations was in the-called OPPOSITE BETTING. They told Evolution reported I did OPPOSITE BETTING at blackjack! Whatever that means. Anyone can explain what is that? Strrange thing Casinomeister had this report but never mentioned such kind of betting just impossible at blackjack. It really seems a set of automated reports issued by Evolution to let casinos "stir the shit". They just picked wrong one.

Check this llink (in Russain) where they mentioned that:

C нами связался провайдер Evolution Gaming, сообщив об использовании тактики противоположных ставок, в свою очередь мы запросили верификацию и самостоятельно проверили вашу игру
После тщательной проверки всей имеющейся информации было принято решение заблокировать ваш аккаунт и аннулировать выигрыш на основании пунктов правил 16.1.6 и 16.5.

google translate:

The provider Evolution Gaming contacted us, informing about the use of the tactics of opposite bets, in turn, we requested verification and independently checked your game
After carefully checking all the available information, it was decided to block your account and cancel your winnings on the basis of clauses 16.1.6 and 16.5.

"Carefully checking" took less than 2 hours for vavada. Yet another casino at the same time took really "carefull checking" of my gameplay lasted for 2 WEEKS and didn't find anything irregular. Someone telling the lie here...

 

[ladygaga]

You should be paid everything 100%

Happy New Year!

So intermediate outcome:
Money had been stolen under false accusations came from Evolution (aka "game provider"). They accused me in the so-called "opposite betting" while I played the Blackjack. It's technically impossible to do such kind of bets at Blackjack. So this is either a mistake or false report from Evolution or this report was faked by vavada.
I don't have copy of this report so I cant comment on that and my right to defense thus violated. Casinomeister had the copy but for some reason ignored this obvious fact and just didn't want to get into the problem. Moreover they confirmed casino's right to steel the money under false or fake accusations from Evolution.

I suggest you to read what I've wrote to you on this source once again. On the website where you've reported a complaint before, the provider've texted us by himself and told that you use the unallowed schemes.

These are false accusations and can easily be proved as "opposite betting" not technically possible at blackjack until you clearly explain what is that. Maybe I'm missing something.

That's exactly ADR part of work but for some reason they didn't want to do their job properly. Max, would you be so kind to comment on "opposite betting at blackjack" please?

 

[ladygaga]

Some update on the case.

Finally casino changed their version again stating that I was 'improperly using bonus funds' failed to provide exact term of T&C that was violated. Probably I had to 'guess' that. You can follow this on casinoguru.

So firstly they accused me in 'opposite betting'.
Later switched to 'card counting'.
Later switched to 'bonus rules violation'.
The case is not related to card-counting or game provider anymore. LOL.
What Bryan told me was:

'It's not the casino that made this decision, but the software provider. So if anything - you would have a claim against them, not the casino. The casino management just upheld the decision made by the software provider. So if anything, you should take your issue up with them.'

But in 3 months we came to a statement that

'It has nothing to do with counting cards'.

I'm really puzzled here. What I must say to Evolution then? It looks just as a bad comedy.

I also want to thank Max once again for ignoring my question on 'opposite betting' at blackjack and calling me an 'idiotic player'. I really appreciate that!

 

[maxd]

I absolutely did not call you an "idiotic player". What I did say was:

Moaning about the Terms after you've accepted and broken them is just as idiotic as the Terms may have been in the first place.

Twisting shit around to suit your purposes seems to be your general MO and that's what trolls do. Adios and happy trails to you.

 

[SpinMeUp]

By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.

Quote: "In Casino Guru, we do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds as it can be easily detected, and the advantage a player can gain by its use is negligeable[...]"
and:
"In case the casino had decided to confiscate your balance based on the existing findings, we would consider that unfair."

Which is the only right decision to make here in my opinion.

 

[The Dude]

By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.

Quote: "In Casino Guru, we do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds as it can be easily detected, and the advantage a player can gain by its use is negligeable[...]"
and:
"In case the casino had decided to confiscate your balance based on the existing findings, we would consider that unfair."

Which is the only right decision to make here in my opinion.

Um - no it wasn't resolved there. Read the dates. That casino guru site was dealing with this last December. Nothing was resolved. Then the player came here, and we tried to do our best to assist. But this guy drank some troll juice, got obnoxious, and was bootified.

We told him it was the software provider he was having an issue about - not the casino. If the software provider negates a player's card game, there is not much the "casino" can do about it. You can challenge the software provider, but this is usually done via the licensing jurisdiction. We were explaining this to the guy (ladygaga? c'mon, dude) but read this thread and you can see what happened.

 

[ladyhawke]

By the way, this issue has been resolved in favor of the player at casino.guru.

Actually, no it wasn't, so not sure where you obtained that information from.

If you read the entire Casino Guru complaint thread, they did indeed state: " We do not consider the use of card-counting strategies as a sufficient reason to confiscate any funds..."

BUT... as further information came to light, Casino Guru then states: Because of all written above, we are rejecting this complaint.

So their final decision was: Unjustified Complaint. Rejected.

 

[dionysus]

snap
this is why CM is the go-to site

 

[Mr.Nice]

Let me clarify few things..

First of all she is a female, so don't be a sexist, Bryan. Yes females are also able to play casinos - just accept it.

Secondly, 'the order of appearance', first she applied to Affgambler, then she came here and only after you laughed at her instead of helping went to the Casino Guru. Don't mess things up.

Thirdly, as for 'further information came to light'. For some reason Guru's manager (being the head of the complaint department) instead of being unbiased took the casino's side and started to produce fantasy versions of what happened. Especially funny about 'bonus rules violation' casino never mentioned. Player had direct permission from online chat support to use bonus funds when playing live blackjack. NO BONUS RULES WERE VIOLATED, but he found some mystery violations and closed the case as 'unjustified'.

Somehow casino convinced the Guru's manager about the outcome of the blackjack game. The raw provider's data clearly showed the negative result of the game (-1525 USD or so at Evolution live blackjack). All the player's winnings were achieved from slots game and bonuses granted (and properly wagered with no bonus rules violated).

Casino's position was that the Evolution report only provoked an inner casino investigation. So the casino's decision was not based on Evolution report but on their own 'investigation' results (lasted just few hours). Evolution report was only the trigger (never seen it but most probably some statistical analysis of player's activity).

Casino always referred to the so-called 'opposite betting' pattern. Noone bothered to explain this term especially in relation to the game of blackjack. Max was asked a few times to explain how he understood this term but he preferred just to ban the player from this forum instead. Guru's manager was smarter and just said this was 'human error' and they meant something different. So, what is 'opposite betting' at blackjack by the way?

And for those who are still interested you can clarify the final outcome of this case from casino's representative.

 

[maxd]

... Max was asked a few times to explain how he understood this term but he preferred just to ban the player from this forum instead. ...

Nice try. Post #43 above gives the real reason for the ban. In short, being a troll was the problem that resulted in the ban not the details of the case.

Given the "creative" interpretation of events -- very much like what led to the banning in the first place -- I'd say someone has returned to attempt a rewrite of history. Regurgitated troll bile of events that happened 18 months ago is not required here, please and thank you. Thread closed.

 

[The Dude]

Let me clarify few things..

How about letting me clarifying a few things here - life is too short to deal with moronic troll post written by wankers like you. You wanted to be banned (as per your PM request)? Good! Take a hike and don't let the door hit you in the ass.