PR: ECOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIV AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION

[Pinababy69]

eCOGRA REPORT ON THE GRAND PRIV AFFILIATE PROGRAM INVESTIGATION


15 February 2010 - Following a number of Internet-based allegations concerning the closure of the Grand Priv Affiliate Program (the Program) on 1 December 2008, eCOGRA's Compliance and Advisory Services department was engaged by the management of the company on 17 November 2009.

Pursuant to an independent and fair resolution of the issues involved, eCOGRA was tasked with:

Independently investigating the manner in which the Program was terminated and the reasons therefore;

Carrying out a full and independent review of the program software and data to confirm amounts owed to claimants;

Determining a fair settlement for claimants, taking into consideration the potential lifetime earnings of each affiliates respective players; and
Compiling a full and transparent report which will be publicly released on conclusion of the investigation.

According to our mandate, the following actions were taken in order to ensure the maximum number of affiliates were afforded the opportunity to submit legitimate and verifiable claims:

On 7 December 2009 both eCOGRA and Grand Priv issued widely distributed press releases advising affiliates of the opportunity to submit claims, and also urging affiliate watchdog organisations to assist in ensuring their respective affiliate members were informed of this opportunity;

After noting affiliate concerns regarding the limited reach of affiliate representative bodies and webmasters, Grand Priv management expanded the communications exercise by emailing every affiliate who had active players on the Programs records during the 3 months prior to 1 December 2008 when the Program closed; and

An online Claim Submission Form for affiliates was made available from 7 to 31 December 2009 and claims were collated by eCOGRA.

Our investigation included confirming the accuracy and completeness of the database list of emails used in the expanded communications exercise in 2. above.



Our findings are as follows:

1. Termination of the Affiliate Program and reasons therefore

Following various meetings with management and an onsite investigation at the Grand Priv operational base during the months of January and February 2010, an inspection of supporting evidence allowed eCOGRA to substantiate that:

For commercial reasons, in August 2008 a decision to close the Program effective 1 December 2008 was taken.

System problems were being experienced on an ongoing basis due to the Program using software in Beta testing. In order to maintain the integrity of the data three permanent employees were required to manage the Program software. In addition the software provider was required to spend an extensive amount of time assisting and troubleshooting ongoing system problems. This resulted in escalating costs, deteriorating service levels and reputational damage.

Due to the high operational overheads and the relatively small portion of income being derived from the affiliate business associated with the Program, losses were incurred by the Program over a period of more than 12 months.

After carefully considering alternative courses of action, management decided to close the Program in order to protect other areas of the organisation from further losses.

All affiliates were informed of the intended closure by email on 7 November 2008 and encouraged to move their accounts and players to the Villa Fortuna Affiliate Program, which used improved affiliate program software. A follow up email with the same message was sent again on 21 November 2008. Termination was conducted according to the termination clauses stipulated in the affiliate contracts.

During November 2008 management entered into mutually agreed compensation arrangements for related future player activity with the majority of affiliates who at that time had players considered to be reasonably active. We have however confirmed that certain affiliates were overlooked in this process.

On 1 December 2008 all affiliates were paid November commissions, and the Program was officially closed.

2. Review of the program software and data to confirm amounts owing to claimants

58 claims were submitted to eCOGRA, of which 7 were found to be invalid (1), and 26 earned commissions during the period 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009. The following steps were taken by two eCOGRA employees, both qualified Chartered Accountants with substantial industry experience, in order to substantiate amounts owing to claimants during this period:

A comprehensive completeness and accuracy audit on the affiliate database provided by the Program was conducted.

The relevant claimants information was located in the database and information used for the linking and tracking of players associated with the claimants was obtained, in part using information supplied in the claim submissions received from affiliates.

This information was used to manually source all players linked to the relevant claimants within the casino back office database.

The underlying data for the players linked to the relevant claimants was scrutinised to identify players who were still active in the period 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009.

The actual commission amounts per affiliate were then recalculated using the gaming data, from 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009, for the linked active players.

3. Determination of a fair settlement for claimants

We have been able to accurately calculate the commission accruing to each claimant for the period 1 December 2008 to 31 December 2009.

In order to take into account any potential future earnings, we have added to this amount an additional commission amount for any claimants players that were active during the 6 month period prior to 31 December 2009. The effect of this is that we have implied an average lifetime value for each of these players of at least 3.5 times the actual(2) average lifetime of all Grand Priv players.

In our opinion, this is fair and reasonable compensation for the likely future earnings of these players.

We wish to thank all those representing affiliates interests for their feedback and support throughout the investigation. We would also like to note that the investigation team received the full cooperation of the Grand Priv management.


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(1)Utilising all information provided by claimants (Name, Email, Banner Tag, Website, etc.), no records could be found in the Program database.

(2)The actual average lifetime value of players is confidential information which we are unable to disclose.



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You are receiving this information based on your past business association with the executive of eCOGRA Limited, or because you have subscribed to receive eCOGRA news. To have your name removed from this list, please email [email protected] .

 

[dominique]

Just gathering initial webmaster reports - seems like the players were untagged after the aff program closed?

 

[jetset]

Grand Prve have just released a press statement through Lyceum's PR set-up.

Anyone know whether any affiliates have been paid yet as a result of this investigation?

Here's the GP release:

GRAND PRIV AFFILIATES PAID

Following an independent third party investigation, the payment of 26 accrued commissions, including 'life of player' adjustments, have been made

15 February 2010 (London, UK) - Following the closure of its Grand Priv Affiliate Program on 1st December 2008, a dispute surfaced over certain affiliate commissions which resulted in the company requesting an investigation through the independent, third party services of industry standards and player protection body eCOGRA.

The result of this protracted and detailed investigation, conducted by industry-experienced Chartered Accountants who were given full access to the company's records, has shown that 26 affiliate commissions of relatively low amounts were overlooked in the initial closure process.

Grand Priv apologises for this unintentional omission, has accepted the eCOGRA findings and will pay these accrued commissions, including any commission earned during the 13 month period to 31 December 2009 and 'life of player' adjustments.

A copy of the full eCOGRA report can be viewed at www.ecogra.org (ecogra site) and at www.grandprive.com (Grand Priv site) in keeping with Grand Priv's commitment to eCOGRA that the report would be made public on completion of the investigation.

The report covers communication of the investigation to interested parties; the methodology used by the eCOGRA team and its conclusions.

Highlights include:

1) Confirmation by the investigating team that software problems were experienced on an ongoing basis, soaking up various resources to maintain the integrity of the program and resulting in escalating costs, deteriorating service levels and reputational damage. Losses accrued to the company which were not viable in relation to the relatively small income being derived, and after some 12 months this led to a decision to close the program.

2) The investigators confirm that two communications exercises were carried out by the program on 7th and 21st November 2008 which culminated in settlement agreements with affiliates who had active players and compensation with their November commissions. The program was then terminated, with affiliates encouraged to enter the Villa Fortuna Affiliate Program with its superior administrative facilities.

3) However, the exhaustive eCOGRA investigation, assisted by claims from affiliates, has established that in the above process some 26 legitimate commissions were overlooked. These omissions were most definitely unintentional and are regretted.

4) In addressing the compensation due to these 26 affiliates, the eCOGRA auditors were able to accurately calculate the commission accruing to each claimant, for the period 1 December 2008, when the program closed, to 31 December 2009 when the investigation began. To this has been added an amount to compensate for 'life of player'. The effect of this is that we have implied an average lifetime value for each of these players of at least 3.5 times the actual average lifetime of all Grand Priv players.

5) Grand Priv accepts the professional recommendation of the eCOGRA investigators that this is fair and reasonable compensation.

The 26 affiliates will be paid the accrued amounts by 26 February 2010, and Grand Priv has closed the book on this unfortunate and regrettable issue.

Management would like to thank those affiliates who submitted claims for their information, along with those affiliate representative bodies who assisted the eCOGRA investigation team by publicising the enquiry.

Appreciation is also due to eCOGRA, which conducted this very professional and detailed investigation for no charge as a service to the industry.

 

[Webzcas]

The 26 affiliates will be paid the accrued amounts by 26 February 2010, and Grand Priv has closed the book on this unfortunate and regrettable issue.

Only 26 Affiliates owed commissions. You have to be kidding me. I think Dom is right that players were untagged when the affiliate program closed.

I expect ecogra will be in for a lot of flak in the coming days from the webmaster community and to be honest I think it will be well deserved........

For anyone interested in the responses by affiliate webmasters to this report by ecogra, check out this thread over on the GPWA -

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[dominique]

The opinions expressed by webmasters at GPWA are mirrored in other webmaster communities.

Personally, the amount discovered to be owed to me makes no sense at all.

Unfortunately, since the aff website is gone, I have no way to prove that.

 

[Webzcas]

Other Webmaster Forums with responses on this:

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[jetset]

On the contrary - I think a number of folks who have been guesstimating that this issue involved "hundreds of thousands of dollars" in unpaid commissions (perhaps not realising or accepting that GP had already carried out a compensation negotiation with most of those impacted) may have a little egg on their faces.

IMO it comes down to whether the de facto professional skills and personal integrity of eCOGRA's chartered accountants on the investigation team are accepted...and whether such an organisation would risk everything in a reputational sense to dishonestly engage in a cover up for one medium sized online gambling group when it has business and professional relationships with most of the major groups in the industry and highly respected trade bodies like EGBA.

I have some admiration for eCOGRA management in grasping this very prickly nettle, given the emotionalism and massive condemnation that has characterised the affiliate sector over the past year or more on this GP dispute.

That took some balls and a lot of confidence in the auditing experience and skills of the investigating team, knowing that many affiliates would choose to believe the worst no matter what the outcome of the audit.

Judging by the investigating team's recommendations mentioned in the statement above it appears that they have come up with a reasonably generous compensation formula that exceeds the usual 'average of player lifetme" calc and takes into consideration the past year since the GP aff. program closure.

Hell - there's even an apology from GP in there along with the commitment to pay those who have been verified!

Was it a genuine oversight on GP's part, subsequently exacerbated by an increasingly hardass management attitude as the insults and criticism flew? No dollar numbers are mentioned but it would seem foolhardy for any management to let a dispute get to the levels this one did for what may have been a relatively small amount of dollar compensation....but then logic can fly out the window as emotions surge in management too.

Whatever, and again depending on what your personal perception is, at least an investigation has now been completed and flaws exposed have been addressed (once GP pays those involved, of course!)

 

[dominique]

I suspect that Grand Prive untagged players pursuant to the aff program closure.

It is the only way I could explain the amount alotted to me, which is less than one month's traditional revenues.

It would be quite difficult for ecogra to follow actual amounts if players were untagged.

 

[Webzcas]

Jetset, as an affiliate webmaster that was fortunate to have never promoted Grand Prive, I personally have not been affected by this.

BUT

I am inclined to agree with Dom. It certainly looks like the majority of players were untagged when the program closed down.

I cannot believe that only 26 affiliates were due monies.

So in my view there are two scenarios here.

Either eCOGRA have been party to a cover up. Something I very very very much doubt is the case.

Or Grand Prive have not provided eCOGRA with the details of all the untagged players and shaving not in the barbers sense has been carried out enmasse.

I honestly believe the fall out from this, could be very damaging to eCOGRA regardless.

But this is not my battle. I will be watching from the sidelines.

 

[jetset]

I am not involved in the affiliate world, and it is not my battle either, but logic tells me that eCOGRA would be unlikely to allow itself to be used as a pawn by GP in an issue as high profile as this - for the reasons I gave previously.

Affiliates appear to have forgotten that eCOGRA is not some penny ante outfit of dubious integrity, but a large and professional organisation staffed by qualified people whose work is respected by major corporates and trade bodies in the industry.

But instead of speculating on tagged or untagged players etc etc etc (or any other new wrinkle that can be introduced) I would recommend that Dom and others actually communicate with the CEO at eCOGRA and document their fears with facts, seeking an assurance from him that this aspect was covered in the investigation....or not. And if not what he intends doing about it.

I look forward to his reaction.

Let's at least deal with facts and not speculation as this latest GP chapter unfolds.

Edited to postulate that the lower player activity being claimed by affiliates (see Dom's post above as an example) could be the result of the widespread damnation of GP that the affiliate community undertook over the past year or more, which presumably could have overlapped onto player choices and perceptions.

 

[triple777s]

I take this personally, and am upset with this way of thinking, atleast in my little corner of the world. I worked my ass off for this company back in the day and had over 300 players, with 50 that were regular players, I made commission every single month of varying amounts for over 5 years, up til the day the closed the program down [without any warning or offer to me for my players...period!] and for me to believe that those players all of a sudden just up and disappeared and stopped playing on the vary day they closed the affiliate program is absolutely ridiculous!

Only an idiot would believe that and i am not an idiot by no means and neither are the rest of the affiliates that i work with and have been given the same bullshit report that i recieved. Not one penny owed to me!...NOTHING!

If eCOGRA is not in bed with GP, then they are getting screwed over too.

On the contrary - I think a number of folks who have been guesstimating that this issue involved "hundreds of thousands of dollars" in unpaid commissions (perhaps not realising or accepting that GP had already carried out a compensation negotiation with most of those impacted) may have a little egg on their faces.

IMO it comes down to whether the de facto professional skills and personal integrity of eCOGRA's chartered accountants on the investigation team are accepted...and whether such an organisation would risk everything in a reputational sense to dishonestly engage in a cover up for one medium sized online gambling group when it has business and professional relationships with most of the major groups in the industry and highly respected trade bodies like EGBA.

I have some admiration for eCOGRA management in grasping this very prickly nettle, given the emotionalism and massive condemnation that has characterised the affiliate sector over the past year or more on this GP dispute.

That took some balls and a lot of confidence in the auditing experience and skills of the investigating team, knowing that many affiliates would choose to believe the worst no matter what the outcome of the audit.

Judging by the investigating team's recommendations mentioned in the statement above it appears that they have come up with a reasonably generous compensation formula that exceeds the usual 'average of player lifetme" calc and takes into consideration the past year since the GP aff. program closure.

Hell - there's even an apology from GP in there along with the commitment to pay those who have been verified!

Was it a genuine oversight on GP's part, subsequently exacerbated by an increasingly hardass management attitude as the insults and criticism flew? No dollar numbers are mentioned but it would seem foolhardy for any management to let a dispute get to the levels this one did for what may have been a relatively small amount of dollar compensation....but then logic can fly out the window as emotions surge in management too.

Whatever, and again depending on what your personal perception is, at least an investigation has now been completed and flaws exposed have been addressed (once GP pays those involved, of course!)

 

[Webzcas]

Jetset,

I am still earning revenues in some cases four figures, from programs which I have not given much exposure to for the past year or more. Indeed some of these programs I have not referred a single player to for months.

This is why I am speculating that 'shaving' has taken place by Grand Prive. Indeed ask any affiliate webmaster and they would agree with me.

It certainly will be interesting to find out what information was given to eCOGRA by Grand Prive. But I can almost certainly guarantee that Dom's assertion that players were untagged is correct and I am willing to put my reputation on that.

 

[jetset]

@777. I feel your pain, and would certainly be overwrought if I felt I was being screwed over, too.

But if we have a difference of opinion, that is a question of diverging views and not one of a personal attack.

I don't personally believe that eCOGRA would be a party to deliberate and malicious deception of affiliates, and if you do I respect that that is your opinion, even if I personally find it unlikely.

Similarly I have carefully read through the eCOGRA report and to me it does not sound like the BS deception as you have characterised and dismissed it. But again, that is a difference of opinion.

Whether you would accept any statement from eCOGRA as being factual and honest is again up to you - judging by your posts so far that seems unlikely. But not everyone has to or will agree with you.

I would hope, however that you would support my call for facts and not speculation or unsubstantiated accusations.

@ Webzcas: I doubt whether anyone who knows you doubts your reputation and honesty - but I'm presenting an opinion, too....and more importantly I'm calling for facts and not speculation - there has surely been enough of that in this whole sorryass affair.

 

[dominique]

But instead of speculating on tagged or untagged players etc etc etc (or any other new wrinkle that can be introduced) I would recommend that Dom and others actually communicate with the CEO at eCOGRA and document their fears with facts, seeking an assurance from him that this aspect was covered in the investigation....or not. And if not what he intends doing about it.

I have been and am in contact with eCOGRA and am trying to figure out what went wrong.

Other aspects may figure into the equation - such as the affiliate program that precedes Grand Prive - Referspot. Many of the players in question date back to that period. This program was replaced by Grand Prive and the affiliates and players were mapped over. It may be possible that these players were untagged. It just isn't likely that all players who have played there for YEARS suddenly decide all at the same time to stop.


Whatever the cause may be, this just doesn't wash.

As Webzcas mentioned, other comparable microgaming programs are still paying the way it was agreed upon, and comparisons between them and Grand Prive provide a likely correct outcome of this.

Anyway, we'll see what is found.

 

[jetset]

Kudos for deciding to get the facts directly from the (eCOGRA) horse's mouth.

I genuinely look forward to your report on that.

My knowledge of the intricacies of affiliate accounting are at best superficial, and I am therefore not in a position to makes guesses on what could have happened, did happen or did not happen.

I do, however, know with certainty that speculation is very often a dangerous and misleading game, and you need to get at the facts and pass them on for the benefit of your affiliate colleagues....and soon.

 

[dominique]

I strongly doubt that soon is going to be possible, since things will have to be re-examined.

 

[dominique]

Just to add, I think Referspot legacy is what is missing. Apparently there are affiliates who expected compensation and got zero - and it turns out their players were exclusively Referspot legacy players.

So now we wait and see what is found.

 

[bonustreak]

We have been given a fair amount of compensation considering that others have been given ziltch. I have to agree that there is something going on here that does not add up. I think eCogra has done a fair job here and did what they could with the information that was given to them. I think if anyone is to blame we all know it would be Grand Prive, I mean it isn't like they are a respectable company, we all know they lie, cheat and steal! I am sure that MG themselves can go back to the days of Referspot and see what players were tagged to whom. If someone was to dig hard at CAP there are post from way back when they changed over programs it was suspected back then that players were not mapped over correctly and then they started up with that one log in for all the brands and cross marketed all of our players. Grand Prive has been doing shady stuff since 2007 and I think this is when they started getting rid of the affiliates as much as they could do without getting caught. JMO

 

[jetset]

I strongly doubt that soon is going to be possible, since things will have to be re-examined.

Not necessarily - Beveridge may have accounted for your doubts and have an acceptable explanation.

But that again is speculation - let's get the facts.

Something that continues to intrigue me is the question of those affiliates that the eCOGRA investigation has confirmed were contacted and received negotiated compensation packages just before the program closed.

Whilst I appreciate that the program could have had thousands of affys on its books, and not all would be active on the message boards, it seems strange that none of them came forward to confirm that they had accepted settlements.

Was that embarrassment at doing a deal with the devil? An attitude of 'this is my business and noone elses?' Or some other reason?

 

[jetset]

Just to add, I think Referspot legacy is what is missing. Apparently there are affiliates who expected compensation and got zero - and it turns out their players were exclusively Referspot legacy players.

So now we wait and see what is found.

More speculation?

 

[Tengil]

Im still surprised that so few initially lodged a complaint. That was the only way to get something out from GP.

Their termination clause seemed to be quite waterproof. If some are unsure you can do a quick check here:

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Edit: also worth to Google termination clause

 

[dominique]

That clause is a canned clause that is valid in court with providers of free online software and pertains to changes in that software or it's continued free use. However it is not admissible in court if it refers to earned wages of any type.

In other words, a useless smoke screen that has no legal impact whatsoever.

 

[Tengil]

But you didnt earn any wages etc BTW asked a friend who is a lawyer and briefly explained the situation to him. He (without looking in depth) said that if the termination clause is well formulated its waterproof. So if it was well formulated they didnt breach the contract, they terminated it.

So eCogra was the last chance to get anything from GP, and that was solely because of the actions taken against them with blacklistings etc.

Also an article worth to read

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[dominique]

Well, we consult with lawyers who do not share the same opinions.

This is , however, not relevant to the thread at this time but was stipulated before the ecogra audit.

Right now the issue is what may have gone wrong with the audit, and how to fix it.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

That clause is a canned clause that is valid in court with providers of free online software and pertains to changes in that software or it's continued free use. However it is not admissible in court if it refers to earned wages of any type.

In other words, a useless smoke screen that has no legal impact whatsoever.

Kinda like website disclaimers and online casino TandC's.

 

[dominique]

Sorry, I missed that comment, Jetset:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominique
Just to add, I think Referspot legacy is what is missing. Apparently there are affiliates who expected compensation and got zero - and it turns out their players were exclusively Referspot legacy players.

So now we wait and see what is found. Unquote

------------------------------------

More speculation?
__________________
jetset

No that is not speculation, talking with a number of affiliates who filed a claim and received no compensation reveals that the common denominator among these affiliates is that all their players were legacy players from the Referspot program.

It also fits my own situation - the offered compensation fits for just players referred after the switch from Referspot to Grand Prive. However, the majority of my players came from before the switch. It adds up perfectly that way.

I feel quite comfortable concluding that these legacy players were omitted from the statistics presented to eCOGRA.

The speculative part is how this happened. Possibility: The legacy statistics may have been fed into the Grand Privee affiliate accounting from a different source than the more recent players that were aquired after the switch. The old Referspot accounting may actually be intact someplace and needs to be pulled to make the Grand Prive stats complete. I am only speculating on this part now because it may aid eCOGRA during investigation if true.

As an explanation to why this is of interest to players:

A lot of established affiliates aim to create a "player base" with certain casinos. That means that there are enough players playing to even out somewhat the fluctuations of winning and losing, as we all know gambling is not a reliable income for people who have to pay rent every month.

This is actually beneficial to players, since only casinos who treat their players well keep them playing for years at the same place. The affiliate is only able to establish such a "player base" at decent casinos.

Of course, such a player base is only a workable business model if the casino does not breach contract with the affiliate, i.e. makes payments as per contract.

In an environment where it is easily possible for casinos to breach contract with affiliates, many affiliates will abandon the idea of picking reliable brands to establish a relationship with and instead work for CPA, which is a flat payment for each referred player, much like all the "refer a friend" offers out there.

Now the affiliate has no further financial interest in the happiness of the player. (Hopefully there will still be a human interest)

Anyway, I just thought I'd explain how this works and why this does matter for players.

 

[jetset]

I don't wish to appear pedantic, Dom but that is still speculation.

You have not had access to the GP records in the manner that eCOGRA has, and you probably lack the professional capabilities of the experienced chartered accountants and auditors who conducted this audit. Don't forget that these professionals have interacted with experts in affiliate accounting as well as the systems and technology of leading programs in the industry under the Affiliate Program Trust initiative - they are generally pretty clued up.

Therefore you are not in a position, no matter how many fellow affiliates you speak to, to be sure that this was a factor in the investigation, let alone whether the investigation has come up with the correct conclusions.

That said, it is possibly useful information and you were right to forward it as a possibility to the CEO at eCOGRA.

If it does impact the results, or has not already been taken into account, he will certainly have to reopen the enquiry to address the point - I can't see him risking eCOGRA's credibility by not doing so.

eCOGRA has an imperative to be impartial and objective in this issue - and so should we, to be fair.

It is understandable that affiliates who thought they were going to benefit here but did not will feel miffed and develop subjective views, but that doesn't mean that everyone else has to accept these as gospel.

 

[Webzcas]

I don't wish to appear pedantic, Dom but that is still speculation.

Jetset, it may be speculation, but it is the only plausible reason as to why only 26 affiliates are owed money as a result of the investigation made by ecogra.

IF Dom is incorrect, then what I want to know is, what has happened to the other countless number of affiliates owed monies?

Indeed, if there is another reason as to why so few are owed monies and the amount offered in way of compensation is derisory based on previous monthly earnings ( Based on what many affiliates such as Dom have indicated ) - Then something untoward has happened - Meaning Grand Prive and possibly eCOGRA are complicit in a cover up.

Hence I like to prefer to believe Dom has nailed it.

Now you may again address my post as pure conjecture and speculation but I will say this. There is absolutely no way on earth only 26 people were left owing money when Grand Prive closed down.

This report I am afraid to say is FLAWED, as it is becoming more apparent Grand Prive did not provide all the information to eCOGRA. This is why it was so important that someone such as Affiliate Guard Dog should have been involved from the getgo.

Let's see what Andrew gets back to Michael Corfman with.

 

[jetset]

I am surprised that you use such strong language, when it is equally true that you are patently not in a position to make such a judgement on whether the report is "flawed" or not, Webzcas.

This is exactly the sort of damaging guesswork that should be avoided in favour of factual exchanges with the CEO at eCOGRA in my opinion. It can only inflame and exacerbate the situation.

For example, on what do you base the statement "....the other countless number of affiliates owed monies?"

What is apparent to me is that the settlements that GP were shown to have negotiated and made when the program closed are not being acknowledged by affiliates in their attacks on this report. Nor is the fact that the recommended compensation is a far cry from "derisory".

And the fact that despite wide publicity only 58 claims were lodged with the eCOGRA investigation team appears to substantiate that. I say 'appears' because like you I have no way of verifying that was the case.

As to the implication that eCOGRA lacks integrity and would consider being an accomplice in a GP cover-up...I will just say that I find that very, very hard to accept.

 

[Webzcas]

I am surprised that you use such strong language, when it is equally true that you are patently not in a position to make such a judgement on whether the report is "flawed" or not, Webzcas.

I base it on my 5 - 6 years as an affiliate, who is still earning considerable sums from programs whereby I have not referred players to for many months and in some cases over a year. I am not one to make wild speculative comments and I don't choose my words lightly.

There are many more affiliates who put through a far greater number of players than I do or have done . Therefore I cannot buy the fact that the majority of players referred by affiliates suddenly stopped playing when the Grand Prive affiliate program closed down. Which if we are to take the report issued by eCOGRA at face value, this is what it indicates.

Like I say, Dom has more than very likely assessed the situation correctly, and legacy players from the old referspot program were not included in the investigation.

If Andrew comes back to Michael and confirms this is the case, then another investigation will be required - As you also indicate should be the case.

However if the legacy referspot players were included in the investigation then I cannot accept the conclusion drawn up by eCOGRA as it currently stands.

 

[jetset]

I'm afraid I cannot accept that your experience as an affiliate qualifies you to make judgements on the efficacy of the eCOGRA professional audit, W - the two qualifications are quite disparate...but you raise an interesting point regarding players active post-the GP Affiliate Program shutdown - the lack of performance of referred players in that time.

My own speculation - and that's all it is, because I have no more proof of my assertions than you have - is that affiliates may have been hoist by their own petard, so to speak - specifically by the massive bad publicity that was generated against GP for its lack of communication and refusal to address the fact that it had overlooked some affiliates when it negotiated compensation deals with others prior to the program being discontinued.

Edited to add that reading back over this post I find myself guilty of the same guesswork as those I have argued with, and for that I am sorry. Let's try and stick with the facts here and see what eCOGRA has to say with regard to the Referspot and player tag possibilities.

If GP has misled eCOGRA I suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences.

 

[Webzcas]

I'm afraid I cannot accept that your experience as an affiliate qualifies you to make judgements on the efficacy of the eCOGRA professional audit

If as I suspect eCOGRA were not provided with all the information required ( ie the referspot players ) then the blame does not lie at their door. But whether you accept my experience as an affiliate or not, I know for a fact that players enmasse do not all disappear overnight which is pretty much what the investigation is concluding. Hence my assertion the report and audit is flawed.

I have provided two possible scenarios as to why it is flawed and I am of the belief that they ( eCOGRA ) have not been provided with the full information necessary to complete the audit.

If GP has misled eCOGRA I suspect there will be some pretty serious consequences.

Who knows, it could have been an oversight on GP's part. But I am very interested to hear what Andrew comes back with.

 

[dominique]

Luckily eCOGRA sees more merit in affiliate feedback than Jetset and they are looking into it.

Developments since yesterday, i.e. more affiliates reporting on their findings, further confirm that the Referspot legacy statistics do not figure in the calculations.

Understanding the affiliate business has nothing to do with it, you are right Jetset. I only explained about that because we are guests on a player oriented board here and it matters that players understand the issue and how it affects them.

At this time, the only thing that matters in regard to my conclusions is the way the numbers crunch. And that makes my conclusions clear as day.

 

[jetset]

That snidey little introductory remark is totally uncalled for and unwarranted, Dom - you disappoint me.

But thank you for the progress report.

 

[dominique]

Sorry Jetset, I didn't mean to be snide. Accept my apologies, please.

 

[jetset]

Accepted.

Let's be clear here - I am in no way defending or condoning GP's actions. I believe this company initially handled this issue incredibly badly and maybe even dishonestly and then made it even worse for themselves by pulling up the drawbridge.

I do, however have a healthy respect for eCOGRA's capabilities and integrity, hence my efforts to keep things on a factual and objective level rather than see an affiliate lynch party start up before eCOGRA has had a fair chance to address your questions and perhaps explain the position regarding alleged discrepancies.

For the record, I have encouraged affiliate feedback as my previous posts show.

 

[dominique]

There isn't any lynch party going on. Only efforts to aid eCOGRA in figuring out the apparent discrepancies.

 

[jetset]

Please read my post again.

Quote: "...hence my efforts to keep things on a factual and objective level rather than see an affiliate lynch party start up..." Unquote

Meanwhile keep up the good work in carrying on a sensible dialogue with eCOGRA.

 

[universal4]

I would be all for the facts to be looked at and examined.

Have GP turn the old referspot stats back on.

Have eCogra look at the players ID numbers and cross reference them to the stats from GP.

Then they could get an idea at how many players disappeared during that first big ******.

(Sorry, I had a few ideas of what to put there in place of the stars, none of which is appropriate for public consumption...)...maybe use "screw-up"

Sure, turning the old stats on would be a big pain, and slightly difficult, but I am 100% sure they have decent workable backups that they could install and restore on a few servers so eCogra could take a look.

Like many others, I just have trouble accepting that almost ALL players stopped playing almost immediately....

Rick

 

[spearmaster]

I do, however have a healthy respect for eCOGRA's capabilities and integrity...

I will vouch for Andrew and Tex's integrity, and thus that of eCOGRA. There is absolutely no question of this.

However, I do feel that their capabilities are not up to scratch. This is ultimately why I seem to disagree with them much more often than I would expect.

I have already made my opinions about this issue to them early last year and nothing has changed despite the subsequent audit.

 

[dominique]

I am quite positive that eCOGRA worked properly with what they were presented with.

Hopefully the missing data can be retrieved.

 

[bonustreak]

HAHA so I am back to retract my previous statement about how we were given a decent amount it seems the accountant or whom ever typed the email up does not know how to use decimals and it was not 7k we are given but 7 bucks roflmaooooo they can of course shove that!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I am quite positive that eCOGRA worked properly with what they were presented with.

Hopefully the missing data can be retrieved.

100% sugarcoating the inability of qualified auditors (their words as I remember) to properly perform. Why would a player be concerned with qualified auditors from eCOGRA inability to obtain all relevant data? HUMMM, those so called BS-MG audits maybe???

When I had a casino audited, the casino tried the same with Eliot Jacobson and I, not once but three times (3). Notice I said "tried".

 

[Webzcas]

HAHA so I am back to retract my previous statement about how we were given a decent amount it seems the accountant or whom ever typed the email up does not know how to use decimals and it was not 7k we are given but 7 bucks roflmaooooo they can of course shove that!

This is just downright insulting. As I said in my previous posts. This audit is FLAWED!

Majorly so.

Even not taking into account the Referspot players being excluded ( which has not been confirmed is the case yet ) this is just absolutely ridiculous. I am inclined to agree with Spearmaster.

 

[AussieDave]

Therefore you are not in a position, no matter how many fellow affiliates you speak to, to be sure that this was a factor in the investigation, let alone whether the investigation has come up with the correct conclusions.

If eCogra came 100% clean with exactly what was done in the GP audit, people like Dom would not have to speculate.

A which point we could all move forward in addressing issues that may have affected the outcome of this audit, instead of splitting hairs about who's right and who's wrong.



Cheers



Dave

 

[AussieDave]

I will vouch for Andrew and Tex's integrity,

Apart from speaking with Andrew a few times when eCogra opened, I don't know much about him. However Tex I've known for ages. Although she has a busy schedule, Tex as far as I'm aware is not one to choose the soft option.

But I'm talking about people's integrity and although Tex is employed by eCogra, Tex like Andrew is not eCogra.

I wont hide my negative views about eCogra as an entity. But I wont derail this thread with my views.

However, I do feel that their capabilities are not up to scratch.

Though I don't question Tex's integrity, I side with your opinion that both Andrew and Tex are out of their depth with the GP matter.



Cheers



Dave

 

[jetset]

As usual, we are again being presented with a rush to judgement on eCOGRA by several posters here - and all before the full facts are known.

That's not splitting hairs btw - that's recommending a fair hearing and asking for facts instead of theories. And eCOGRA has detailed its methodology in its final report for those who care to take the time to read it.

Thanks to the imo more balanced approach taken by Dom and Michael Corfman in conducting a dialogue direct with eCOGRA - and kudos to them for it - this issue is apparently being further examined to see which of several possibilities has been the actual case.

And perhaps more importantly than throwing mud around before the facts are known, how a fair result can be ensured for those affiliates who have been prejudiced by GP's handling of this disgraceful affair.

As I see it the following are the broad possibilities:

1) eCOGRA and its auditors are corrupt and complicit in a deliberate deception with GP designed to screw affiliates.

2) eCOGRA and its auditors are incompetent and incapable of delivering a professional and acceptable investigation and report.

3) GP has deliberately withheld or concealed information that could radically impact the results so far of the eCOGRA investigation, literally hanging eCOGRA out to dry to defend GP interests.

4) The eCOGRA investigation was presented with all the facts - including re-tagging, Referspot etc etc by GP, and its investigation and conclusions are accurate - ie not flawed at all.

I can't think of any others - please feel free to add to the list - but I'm prepared to withhold judgement until there is more factual information available on what is going on here.

 

[maxd]

... Andrew and Tex are out of their depth with the GP matter.

How so? Just curious about your reasoning.

Also, afaik, Tex is on leave at the moment. Andrew is carrying the ball for the time being.

 

[jetset]

Beveridge is the CEO of eCOGRA as well as being a fully qualified and professional Chartered Accountant.

According to the well documented communications leading up to the investigation he was involved in the enquiry with another senior eCOGRA staffer, Sean Roberts - also a fully qualified and experienced Chartered Accountant.

If material information was withheld from them or 'disappeared' from the records made available, I doubt that either will be happy - but at this stage that is conjecture and not fact.

 

[universal4]

I personally agree with #3 in Jetset's post above....

...but if that is truly the case, I wouldn't go as far as saying the auditors are corrupt or incompetent (although I guess that is a possibility) but I would guess that they should have been able to tell the information they are being supplied is flawed.

Of the 58 that actually filed, I do not honestly think that any one of them accepts the findings, and if so I have not heard of this through the grapevine of affiliates anywhere.

Rick