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Suggestions for the "no student" clause

The Dude

The artist formally known as Casinomeister
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
The Club World Casino group has a term in their terms and conditions that disallows them from accepting action from college students. This is how it reads:

Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino

For some, it's not clear enough. Please use this thread to make any suggestions you'd like the operators to consider. Thanks!
 
Thank you Bryan, perhaps the citizens of this community can work together to creatively and positively reconstruct a vague term into one that will leave no room for debate.

Off to ponder how I would like to see this reworded...
 
1. Remove the term completely. Does not apply to gambling.

2. Remove all terms that are totally bogus (99%) IMO...get down to business of gambling.

3. Stop all bonuses that require playthrough. If you want to give a "thank you" for your loyalty chip...then do just that...GIVE IT with no strings attached, otherwise...don't offer anything..

Reason: If a person is old enough to play and has the funds, regardless of where it comes from (no ones business IMO), then that should be sufficient.

Other Reason: If a player is old enough to lay down his life for others (serviceman), the player is old enough to play , again, MOO. No need to nitpik and pick and choose which players are to be allowed in the door if they are "of age". Period. I can just see Vegas, carding people at the door asking for their "passports" to prove what location they are from..I mean, get real...if you want to be a casino....be a CASINO! Not my uncle, father ,mother..caretaker...

We have enough "babysitting" with our government I believe. That is why we are in this mess with online gambling. Too many vague terms applied to grown ups (people of age that can die, be locked etc etc for their decisions) in the name of "protecting themselves"...

Just a few suggestions..I know they will probably be ignored, but it is nice to give an opinion..of sorts :D

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Based on the rather long thread concerning this term, they need to clearly state that they deem a student as an individual who is in full time education, even during the summer recess/vacation/break. If the intent of an individual is to continue their studies after completing a course, once a new academic year begins - then that individual is still classed as a student by the casino.

I think also from an affiliate perspective, they need to provide this information to webmasters in any ad copy material distributed. I for one have been in this industry now for ten years, working for an operator and as an affiliate. Yet until this thread on CM was started, I was not aware of this no student term. So much for me doing my own due diligence when reviewing casinos. :cool:

( I have however highlighted this term on the review of Club World on my new site and will be updating the reviews on OCR to contain this information )

This term is fairly unique to Club World and as such listing it as term number 1 is not enough to publicise it IMO. They need to use their affiliates to also provide this information. Perhaps also, on the sign up a new account screen, the new player has to tick a box confirming they are not in full time education.

If the above was done previously, we would not be seeing a thread grow into over 40 pages.
 
IMO the clause needs to be deleted all together. Why pick out this one segment of the population and why is it so important to them? If at my age (50 ish) I decide I want to go back to school full time am I going to be automatically banned from playing? First of all, how are they going to know? Who would think it would be any of their business?

I agree that they need the age clause (no one under 18) but full time student...come on....it needs to go.
 
IMO the clause needs to be deleted all together. Why pick out this one segment of the population and why is it so important to them? If at my age (50 ish) I decide I want to go back to school full time am I going to be automatically banned from playing?

I disagree actually and not to derail the thread I will explain why. A casino has the right to refuse anyone from playing at their operation, whether it be a land based casino or an online casino in this instance.

The problem however is that the casino needs to ensure that they communicate effectively key terms such as this no student term. Putting it away on the T & C's whilst at the #1 spot is not good enough. As we all know when installing software or doing anything online, hardly anyone reviews the terms, let alone look at the page where they reside.

Hence this term needs to be highlighted up there with the you confirm you are of legal age. As per my suggestion above.

This whole issue would not have generated 40+ pages, if Club World had highlighted this term very clearly in the first place.
 
What are they gonna do?

I mean really...are they gonna stalk every single person and dig up the info and see if they are attending college etc or not?

I mean seriously...Are they also asking for SIN numbers? Who would spend the resources on hiring someone to track people and see if they are students or not?This is actually an "illegal" term and condition...
 
As many, I am sure will agree, the "Full-time student" term needs to be deleted. If the casino is so intent on "protecting" the student, then change the minimum age to 25 (MOST students will have finished college by this age). If they insist on keeping this term, they need to clarify (age) of who will qualify as a full-time student. With many ADULTS going back to school, whether due to advancing in a career or for situations (unemployed) not of their making, THIS needs to be addressed also.

Also, CWC needs to expand on its definition of "the area of Markham Ontario". This could affect many of its Canadian players without THEIR knowledge.

I sincerely hope CWC takes into consideration every comment (constructive) which is posted. In my personal opinion, it will show the casino group cares enough about their players to insure another travesty like the Danl issue doesn't occur again.
 
oldtrvlagt: IMO the clause needs to be deleted all together. Why pick out this one segment of the population and why is it so important to them? If at my age (50 ish) I decide I want to go back to school full time am I going to be automatically banned from playing? First of all, how are they going to know? Who would think it would be any of their business?

I agree that they need the age clause (no one under 18) but full time student...come on....it needs to go.
I agree totally...it needs to be GONE!
Webzcas: The problem however is that the casino needs to ensure that they communicate effectively key terms such as this no student term. Putting it away on the T & C's whilst at the #1 spot is not good enough.
This is where the problem originates. Clauses that do what? Nothing. If they are going to pick and choose who they want to play at their casino, what will make them stop putting in ridiculous clauses such as , "player must have 2 legs, not be handicapped, etc etc.." Get the picture?

I mean, when is too much too much?
Webzcas: A casino has the right to refuse anyone from playing at their operation, whether it be a land based casino or an online casino in this instance.

Yes, casinos have the right to offer and refuse anyone from playing. But is this a smart business decision? I do not see many casinos choosing this line and terms as this is a most ridiculous clause I find...as you state the following:
This term is fairly unique to Club World
So...knowing most T&C's by heart, you have this one little blip that did not show up on the radar because it is an unknown....why do they want this in there? I cannot fathom for the life of me why any casino would ban or block players of age ....when you say casino can and do choose who plays at their casinos... I do not see anyone asking for "employment verifications" , passports, etc etc at any of the casinos to gain entry..to prove they can afford to play...

I mean, really, ...this is a very , very , bad and unique clause that needs to be thrown out completely....

I also wonder how many other "unique" clauses are put in and taken out arbitrarily....without a player knowing...

It really is time to get back to basics...the term "you play, you pay" is simple as can be...why so many convoluted rules???

Are they trying to be put out of business???

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The Club World Casino group has a term in their terms and conditions that disallows them from accepting action from college students. This is how it reads:



For some, it's not clear enough. Please use this thread to make any suggestions you'd like the operators to consider. Thanks!

Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add this only [ ALL STUDENTS UNDER THE AGE OF 27 YEARS OF AGE ARE NOT WANTED HERE ]

PS k i S S = keep it simple stupid , its a abbreviation from the world of sales , there's no easy way to tell some one to kiss off if you try it only aggravates them more
 
The term is far to vague and unenforceable to be an effective protection mechanism for any students the casino 'claim' it expects to protect.

Lets face it. Now that the word is out, what students intent on playing are going to tick the student box on sign up, even if they had one and especially if its right there in black and white that students are forbidden to play? If I know anything about human nature the fact is that the student is going to NOT tick the box and play regardless of what the casinos pretend to do to 'protect' them.

Unless ClubWorld are privy to more private information than we consent to, there is no way possible for them to determine a student from a non-student. This term CLEARLY leaves the door open to abuse of this clause, as we have seen in previous posts. Any term that sets itself in such a way as to give an unfair advantage to either side, player or casino, should be removed completely. And in this case it is clear that the clause would only serve to protect the casino in the case of a withdrawal.

Unless CWC can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have audited ALL PLAYERS and refunded monies lost and closed accounts of ALL STUDENTS, I call BS on this. This is the real world, if a student wants to play and lose his shirt, let em, best they learn that lesson early on while they still have time to bounce back! If a student plays and wins PAY THEM!

So my suggestion is get rid of it. If CWC truly cares about Students(gamblers in general) it would set up funds for programs to assist problem gamblers with all those confiscated winnings.
 
Yes, casinos have the right to offer and refuse anyone from playing. But is this a smart business decision? I do not see many casinos choosing this line and terms as this is a most ridiculous clause I find...as you state the following:

Casinos refuse players for a number of reasons. Bottom line is, they and only they can choose who they accept or refuse. I personally think it is ( The no student term ) actually is in a way supporting responsible gambling, but it needs to be made crystal clear, so allegations of it being applied subjectively do not occur moving forward. Whether it is a sound business decision or otherwise, that is not for us to decide, as we posters do not operate the casino.

The issue at hand and the purpose of this thread is to discuss ways on how to make this term clear. As it is apparent Club World are not going to drop it.

So instead of saying they should drop it ( not going to happen ) - I am offering suggestions, so that this term is as clear as can be. IMO it needs to be highlighted up there with the legal age to play requirement.

If I know anything about human nature the fact is that the student is going to NOT tick the box and play regardless of what the casinos pretend to do to 'protect' them.

The point is, if they ( The player ) are caught out then they have no right to shout 'Foul Play'. A case of informing legitimate players at the casino and also covering their backs at the same time. If I was a student and saw that term and a tick box to indicate I was not a student. I would uninstall the software and find somewhere else to play. As I am sure 99% of people in that position would. It is not as if Club World are the only casinos available to play online.
 
Could the registration form not popup a message if the registrant is under 25 stating that if they are in full time education all wagers are void - one that they have to accept to complete registration?
 
Could the registration form not popup a message if the registrant is under 25 stating that if they are in full time education all wagers are void - one that they have to accept to complete registration?

Are CWC going to send a PI to investigate all players under 25 to confirm their status? NO.
Are students going to ignore that box? YOU BETHCHA!
Are CWC only going to ENFORCE this clause when there is a withdrawal. DEFINITELY.
 
If a player is under 30 years of age they will need to provide proof of age PRIOR to depositing. (Any winnings will be voided (if falsified documents are provided) when requesting a withdrawal, assuming they would have to still provide verification documents with initial withdrawal)

I've never done it, but what happens if you DON'T click the "I agree to the terms and conditions" box? Will it still allow you to download and register at the casino?
 
Could the registration form not popup a message if the registrant is under 25 stating that if they are in full time education all wagers are void - one that they have to accept to complete registration?

I think such a pop-up would actually leave the casino MORE open to abuse. Students could play, hoping to get one by the casino if they won, and claim their wagers back as "void" with proof of enrollment. Some students do work full-time and would be able to provide the necessary "not-a-student" documentation.

Also, you will get issues with people legimately joining when not students, and at some future point returning to school. This pop-up would not appear every time one played I assume.

Is it Clubworld's intention to only protect young students? They have a term for all students, and accept players from many countries, yet they say "College or University". They don't even ban high school students.

College and University are narrowly defined here. There are trade schools, vocational institutes and others that qualify for student funding but are not technically colleges or universities. Where do such students fall? I think there is a great deal of ambiguity surrounding breaks between terms, and particularly between graduation and post-graduate work. Many schools have co-op programs, and students are employed full-time and enrolled in school at the same time.

Royal Military College here in Canada is an accredited university, not a college, but the student cadets are paid employees of the Canadian Military.


IMO no matter what good intentions Clubworld may or may not have with this clause, it's unworkable and unfair.
 
Clubworld Group is the only other RTG I play at. I trust them enough to continue playing there. I LIKE them. They have ALWAYS been good and fair for all the years I have been with them.

Now, I see a blip on the chart. A term that is unique to them only. Why? Why this term? This is why I get so passionate...when one believes in something so much and then comes face to face with a flaw..then hopefully..that flaw is removed..and common sense prevails....

Webzcas: Whether it is a sound business decision or otherwise, that is not for us to decide, as we posters do not operate the casino.
Exactly. So why should they be allowed into our "personal" business...that was the point I was trying to make. All a casino should need to know is:

1. That we are of age (License, etc for proof of age)
2. That we have funds to deposit (by approved means)
3. We have approved means of withdrawing
As it is apparent Club World are not going to drop it.
Why? They have changed other T&C's...updating, rewording, and removing others. Why not this one, that is theirs only, that really makes no sense.
Webzcas: The issue at hand and the purpose of this thread is to discuss ways on how to make this term clear.
I , too, am making suggestions..such as.....

Remove it...this makes it EXTREMELY CLEAR...don't you think???

So instead of saying they should drop it ( not going to happen )
I am truly bothered by this one line...How do YOU know this??? I mean, isn't this supposed to be about "changing" this term?? You sound so definite that they will not listen to any of us, is the way I feel, when reading this one line..so why are we even bothering???

Just wanted to let you know...that one line speaks VOLUMES...to me...and not in a good way...

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It is a BS term sailing under a false flag and should be removed from the T&C all together. There should also be a rule for acredited casino's to not have ambigous, discriminating and unfair T&C's. I thought rules like this were in place, but apparently there are different views on what constitutes as fair.
 
I would like to suggest that CM post up a poll to the effect, should the student term be removed or reworded. I would be interested to see what % of players would actually support such a term. And well if the response is overwhelming that CWC remove the term then discussion over. CWC should remove it. If they don't I am pretty sure we are all familiar with the term "Vote with your Wallet"

I'm not a student but this term is predatory in nature, and no matter how you word it, it does more harm than good and opens the door for further bizarro terms. IE. If you are a parent with children under the age of 18 all bets are void. If you have a disability, all bets are void. ETC ETC Ad Nauseum.

Its a slippery slope we are headed on here...
 
I am truly bothered by this one line...How do YOU know this??? I mean, isn't this supposed to be about "changing" this term?? You sound so definite that they will not listen to any of us, is the way I feel, when reading this one line..so why are we even bothering???

Well based on the fact that they have stuck hard and fast to this term in the case of Danl, I would be surprised if they suddenly did drop it now.

Tom did offer to look at how the term is worded and that is why I thought this thread was started, to offer constructive advice on how Club World can go about that.
 
Quoting CM here:

Please use this thread to make any suggestions you'd like the operators to consider

CM does not state that removing it is not an option up for discussion.
I think its clear that one of the suggestions we implore the operators to consider is dropping the term :)
 
The Club World Casino group has a term in their terms and conditions that disallows them from accepting action from college students. This is how it reads:

Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino

For some, it's not clear enough. Please use this thread to make any suggestions you'd like the operators to consider. Thanks!



In the spirit of this thread, I would say the term needs to be clarified, if it will not be removed.

Full time ACTIVE students, age 25 or younger, who are enrolled in College or University, are not allowed to participate in real wagering in the casino. This includes breaks between semesters and holidays. If a student is found to be making real wagers, then all possible winnings can be voided and deposit will be returned, account will be locked until education is proven to be completed, or student has reached the age of 25.


Although I agree with the concensus of many here about it not being their business, if they are determined to have such a rulling, then it should be fine tuned, so as not to cause grief to a potential long time loyal player in the future. Players over the age of 25 that may be schooling should not need to be concerned about this clause in the T&C's.

I would also add, that since this term is vague and open for interpretation, then all previous students should be paid in full, all winnings, until this term has been clarified beyond mis-interpretation.
 
I think they also need to add terms disallowing single moms, people on a pension, on disability, or anyone making under $10 an hour at their jobs. Oh yeah, and anyone with more than two kids, because we all know how expensive kids can be right. Matter of fact, why don`t they make it say-

Only people who earn 100K a year or more are welcome here?

I mean, it`s all about player protection right? What a total load of bullshit this is. And ROGUE.

Sorry, not interested in even playing this game. CW belong with the likes of Virtual....crooks and LIARS of the highest order.
 

LOL next we will see "We do not accept players who are religious" I mean they are lookin out for your mortal soul and all... and the majority of religions say gambling is wrong.....:rolleyes:
 
LOL next we will see "We do not accept players who are religious" I mean they are lookin out for your mortal soul and all... and the majority of religions say gambling is wrong.....:rolleyes:

I forgot that one Jenn!! People not only need protecting financially, but spiritually as well. :thumbsup:
 
How about a question, do you smoke? They should ban all smokers as they clearly have an addictive type personality and could become addicted to Gambling at Club World. After all CWC in its perfection strives to protect one from oneself. :)
 
I forgot that one Jenn!! People not only need protecting financially, but spiritually as well. :thumbsup:

I thought you were leaving....:laugh: Just bustin ya!

How about a question, do you smoke

How about..Do you own a dog? Over 50lbs. is ok, under 50lbs. is not.

"We do not accept players who are religious"

If you go to church on Sunday you will be paid, if not we keep your money.


;)
 
When evaluating things its always good practice to look at its origins, so I took a little gander at the way back machine and here are my findings....



2005 till February 23, 2007
(no older site history)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater.



March 9, 2007 - Oct 11 2007 (CWC has blocked the WBM from its pages in October 2007 and changed its terms to ban students under 21)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students aged 21 years old and under that are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino.


Present day - CWC has since cast a wider net and removed the 21 years of age and under portion of the clause.

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

1. The Player is at least 18 years of age or has reached the legal age of maturity in his/her jurisdiction, whichever is greater. Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University are not permitted to play in the Casino



So I AM curious. How OLD is DanL?
 

Thank you Mavin for staying focused and actually giving some constructive advice.

For those of you that want to turn this thread into a circus, please feel free to do this elsewhere.

Seriously, if you can't agree to disagree and get all twisted into a knot, what the hell? What good is it having a discussion? Some of you are bullying anyone who disagrees with you. You need to step back and take a few chill pills. Thanks!
 
I agree with Mavin who worded it perfectly. If Club World insists on having the term, than that would be a suitable way to re-word it to clarify exactly who is and is not permitted to play.

Also, when signing up for the casino there should be a button to check specifically for this rule since it is so unique. It should say the player is not a student as specified in the T&Cs and that if found to be a student, any winnings would be confiscated by the casino and the account suspended until the schooling is finished. Then the player would have to agree to it knowingly.

I understand them wanting to protect education because it is very important and these games can be pretty addicting. All laws are put in place to protect and that is all Club World is trying to do in my opinion.

Also, I see the other side of it where us adults should be responsible enough to make our own decisions on these issues. After all, none of us like to be told what we can and cannot do. :)
 
If we could all agree to disagree then this would not be much of a discussion.
If removal of the term is COMPLETELY OUT OF THE QUESTION and we are not allowed to comment on reasons for removing it, then perhaps something to that effect can be mentioned in the original post.

Given that that seems to the road you are heading down on this here is my constructive comment on how to rewrite this term:

1. The Player acknowledges by depositing and playing no way guarantees that winnings can be withdrawn and that the Casino reserves the right to discriminate against the player for any reason is deems appropriate at the time and shall reserve ultimate right to confiscate any winnings and deposits as it sees fit. Caveat Emptor

Might as well just jump all the way down the road.
 
Ya know, I took a chance and asked Bryan in the very long Club World thread what we could do to try to get the term changed. I THOUGHT this was a mature group of people who were so against this heinous term, that AS a group, maybe, just MAYBE we could make a difference as a united front. Some of you have proven me wrong and I am sorry to have asked.

We've been given a chance to maybe persuade CW to eliminate, or clarify with no chance of debate, a clause which is biased, unfair, ambiguous, or however you freakin' want to classify it. BUT, it just goes to show that negative will win over positive if you allow it.

I'm ashamed for asking for the chance, but I'm extremely disappointed in the ones who wish to do nothing more than contrive ways to throw everything BUT what needs to be done to the wind. You want to rant and rave over injustice? Well newsflash! BRYAN isn't the one who wrote the term. Bryan has stated numerous times he doesn't condone the term. He's allowing us a chance to try to right a wrong so someone else doesn't fall into the same trap.

I am so very, very disappointed...
And words fail me now.
 
...
1. The Player acknowledges by depositing and playing no way guarantees that winnings can be withdrawn and that the Casino reserves the right to discriminate against the player for any reason is deems appropriate at the time and shall reserve ultimate right to confiscate any winnings and deposits as it sees fit. Caveat Emptor

Might as well just jump all the way down the road.
If you're attempting to turn the thread into a bash fest, take it elsewhere. This is a serious issue and juvenile comments will take this thread into a downward spiral.

You want to make a change? Then act like an adult and maybe some one will listen to you.
 
You have to be a legal aged adult to register, correct?

In that case, I believe if someone is old enough to register, then they are old enough to make an adult decision without regard to whether they are a student. I feel this clause needs to be removed, as it's a slippery slope that can also lead to other bogus restrictions, such as disabled, only working part time, etc. I take the same stance with military people and alcohol. If they are old enough to die while fighting for their country, they are old enough to drink.

The key word here is "adult". You are either an adult or not and being an adult you should be able to make unrestricted adult decisions. Would a land based casino bar someone on the merits that they are a student? No. This just does not stand up to the test.
 
<sorry derail>

No I am not attempting to put this thread into a bash fest.
I have not bashed a single member of this forum in this thread.
Nor do I see anyone bullying anyone on either side of the fence in this thread.
I do however often use a little humor and sarcasm to get my point across. (I will totally cop to that:))

I see persons in discussion on a pretty important issue. Discussion is healthy because it lets people consider all of the information so that they can make informed decisions. Maybe I haven't thought of something against my opinion, and so I hope that members with good information come on here and provide it.



I asked for clarification if we are allowed to discuss removal of the term in this thread. If we are not allowed to discuss removing the Term, again please edit the original post.
 
Casinomeister: You want to make a change? Then act like an adult and maybe some one will listen to you.
I am realy wondering what the point to this is thread is. We were asked to give our "input" but when we do, we get slammed for giving it saying "that is not an option" on the input given....so, I too am done with this since the minds have already been made up and this has become a one sided conversation...there really was no plan on giving any "input" any consideration I believe , the offer was just a token...to move on..

The in put we were asked to give was not offered in the way it was meant IMO..it was offered to appease...

NO CHANGE will be made except for what the casino wants anyway. again IMO.....so again, what is the point of this thread??

IMO, there is no point to this thread..the decision has already been decided...

Done...


.
 

From this, it seems the intent was to ban UNDERGRADUATE students on their FIRST degree level or equivalent course. They dropped the "21 or under" because most students turn 21 BEFORE taking their final exams. I took a 3 year degree course, very much the norm, but reached 21 in March, yet only graduated in June. Clearly CWC did NOT intend to allow students to play in the same period that they were supposed to be concentrating on their final exams. Some courses are longer though, and this is another loophole with the "under 21" restriction, with those on 4 year courses being able to study during their last year.

Removing this "under 21" seems to be the natural evolution of the term to remove these loopholes, and have ALL undergraduates banned.

It seems that this term was NEVER intended to hit "adult students", but only students progressing through to the end of their first degree course, where they would be dependent on others to fund their living and study expenses.

The DanL case seems to have broken with this idea, and indicates that the term really does mean ALL students, whatever their age. DanL had graduated from the usual degree course, so must be at least 21, an adult in EVERY jurisdiction. You can legally be a parent with school age children at 21, having conceived (or fertilised) a 16 year old mother of that child. They are deemed fit to be in charge of a small child unless evidence to the contrary arises.

The other problem is the very narrow definition of the students they are banning, which is not ALL students, but ONLY those who are "Full-time Students who are enrolled in a College or University"

Although DanL was a student in the wider sense, he was NOT "enrolled in a College or University" between graduation, and the end of the following September, so as written, the term DID allow him to play, albeit only for about 3 months. He was also not "full time" during those three months, probably spending around zero hours attending classes until the end of September.


This is the problem, they haven't said what their aim is in adding this term other than to say it is to keep students who still depend on their parents from playing as a means to protect them from the perils of gambling away their study funds.

However, their implementation has strayed outside of these aims, and now it is not at all clear what classes of student they are trying to keep out.

It is also going to be next to impossible to enforce this rule fairly. A student is something you do in your "B & M life", which to many is separate from their online life.

The ONLY way they are going to catch a student is to get them to ADMIT they are one. The problem is that students are ADULTS, they have ALL the relevant records, rights, and responsibilities as any other adult in any other occupation.

The ONLY way to enforce this rule is to ROUTINELY require a declaration of occupation (with documentary proof) from players, in order to prove that they simply don't have the TIME to be "enrolled full time in a College or University".

DanL had everything he needed to avoid getting caught. He had a drivers license, was more than old enough to gamble, and as an adult over 18 would have been on the electoral roll, something that can be checked independently, and IS usually checked when validating ID documents provided by players.

CWC probably have MANY players who would qualify as "full time students" according to the CWC definition, and if they were determined to play, they would simply use their "regular" credentials during verification. They would NOT send in a student ID, nor would they play on campus, or give their campus address to the casino. ALL students have a "home", even if this is with their parents.

The ONLY thing they will be able to come up with by "digging" is that the player lives with their parents, and does not work (or cannot prove it). Such players are NOT banned though, so being unemployed and living with your parents is NOT against the terms. The only option for CWC then would be to say "prove you are not a student". Well, you can't really do this, but you can prove you ARE a student, and it would be up to CW to do this to refute any evidence produced by the player that they were merely unemployed and looking for work.

Even when they get this term as close as possible to the intent behind it, it is going to be hard work enforcing it against students who KNOW they are banned, but are determined to play anyway, without indisriminately confiscating winnings and banning players that "might be students" because of some "gut feeling" belief. This kind of enforcement would have a negative effect on reputation, and would make players fear that confiscation of winnings was done "on a whim", which would then scare them away.

CWC need to ensure they can ENFORCE such a term against ALL the students they want to exclude, and this would mean having some INDEPENDENT means of checking whether someone was a student that was ACCURATE to the same degree as the other verification checks.

The ONLY way this could be done would be to check players' details against the records of all the institutions concerned. If this is how they are doing it, we should be asking whether this is being done LEGALLY, since such details are covered by the data protection act, and are NOT made available for "commercial purposes", but only to authorised bodies.
Students should perhaps ask their college whether it is indeed possible for "just anybody" to check with these records to determine whether or not they are students. If it is, THIS would be one way CWC would seem to "just know" despite this not being revealed by the player, with the player then being challenged to show that these official records are wrong, rather than that their "gut instinct" got it wrong.

IF CWC can enforce the term as above, they must also have a term informing players that they are accessing and using their information in this manner, since this use is NOT anything to do with "verification of identity", so CANNOT be covered by the term that allows use of third party information for ID verification.

The nearest I can think of is

Students who have ever started a full time course at <full description of covered institutions> may not play until such time as they have completed all their planned courses, and have become available for full time employment, and may be asked to provide proof of this. Students who have completed one course, but are due to start another at a later date, are still deemed ineligible to play regardless of their current employment status
 
If you're attempting to turn the thread into a bash fest, take it elsewhere. This is a serious issue and juvenile comments will take this thread into a downward spiral.

You want to make a change? Then act like an adult and maybe some one will listen to you.


I think the replies you are receiving, are because most of us think this term is ridiculous, so in turn some people (including me) are giving ridiculous terms. It's not juvenile when you think about it, the term IS ridiculous. Sorry.


If CW is really going to change it, there are some good suggestions in this thread.
 
This is what I consider to be the point of this thread. There is a term, that was loosely written that has caused a backlash from many people and justly so.

The term needs to be clarified to not only protect the casino, but all players as well.

The term should not encompass people over a certain age.

I think why CWC has such a clause is because this is the one area that can seriously damage the entire online gaming for ALL players, especially those of us in the US that are hanging on to the last shreds of freedom to be able to play.

If it is brought to the attention of say the feds, whom we know are already looking for reasons to close online gambling down, that players, either under age, or students, are losing their grants, tuition and money saved up for schooling to online gambling, then we could be looking at all of us paying the price of the feds taking control and shutting everyone out, afterall, this is how they operate. Because students going broke to online casinos makes the news, whereas mother of 3 lost her familys grocery money doesn't.

So, to some point a responsible casino does need to police itself in every aspect and it's terms should not be open for any mis-interpretation. Since this is an issue, then the incorrectness of the casino should be rectified to those who are affected prior to streamlining such terms, since the casino is at fault for leaving grey areas in the first place.

Any other monitoring of players is not the issue as we are adults and if we choose to deposit our last cent, the casino's know that is our decision. I for one am not playing online at this time, but I would hope that one day when I do wish to again, that it is still available.
 
OK here is a suggestion. Everybody wins in this scenario.

First remove the students are banned from T&C
Second Create a special Student Account whereby they are only permitted to deposit say $20 per month, unlimited withdrawals.
Provide incentives for them to disclose they are students. IE. Once the student has completed their studies and provided copies of proof, comp them 10% of their total deposits and convert them to a traditional player.

The student wins because they get to play, and can withdraw no muss no fuss.
The Casino wins because it is creating good will in the industry while being responsible to the needs of students and cultivating the next generation of players.

This is a way for the ends to justify the means. If CWC wishes to protect students, this sort of scenario will accomplish that task.

So really, get that marketing department to sharpen their pencils.
 
I would really like them to answer some of the questions posed here. If, at my age, I decide to go back to school full time, am I going to be banned? Or, since I signed up several years ago, am I "grandfathered" in? What set of rules do I follow? I think they need to clarify this. This is my opinion only.
 
No term has ever or will ever be written to protect me or you. They are written to protect the casino and whatever the reason is that they're banning students is probably the same reason they're banning the city of Markham and allowing the rest of the province to play. Somehow they feel that college students are going to get away with something that you or I probably can't.

If CW really wants to discriminate against these people for whatever reason they should probably have their team of lawyers writing up this new term anyway.

What truly bothers me about all of this is that we're sitting here in a thread that Bryan himself has started, trying to dream up new ways of clarifying a term that was just used to deny seven thousand dollars in winnings.

Even if we do find a precise way to explain this term and a sure way to enforce it, we'll be in a new thread next month or year because someone in Pickering tried to make a withdrawal but they're too close to Markham and so deemed to be "in the area of."

Integrity used to count for something.
 
Yeah, I know...I'm tired of jumping through hoops to play, reading T & C's that have major loopholes and never getting a direct answer, worrying if I will get paid (or how long it might take. Which is pretty much why I don't gamble online anymore. )
 
Out with the student clause - once you let an 18 year old loose with credit cards and such, they're either going to screw up their life or be responsible young adults. Protecting them from themselves or the world or their parents (should they be funding it) is not a good thing for anyone entering the adult world.

On the other hand I think 21 is a better age to allow but that's just my opinion. :)
 
My advice is to remove it completely.

As others have said, why not "protect" those that can't afford to be gambling in the first place? Why are those getting additional education excluded but those that can't afford basic necessities allowed to play?

There are probably full time students that have a hell of a lot more money to burn than people here. Those funds can exist in a variety of ways. Not every student is cash poor.

If you are of legal age and meet the general requirements (namely location), then you should be good to go.
 
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If you are of the age to legally gamble (depending on where you reside), that should be it. What's the point in making things more complicated then they need to be?



If this industry (as a whole) really wants to take itself seriously, they (being most operations) have to stop drawing up so many T&Cs.



If this industry wants to show that it's all for responsible gaming - promoting playing for the sake of 'entertainment' - then it needs to make the entire process more player/user-friendly. I fail to see the 'entertainment' in reading up a bunch of terms & conditions periodically, to know that I'm doing everything correctly. Even if you're proud that you've done your homework, they're still making you do your homework (and where's the 'fun' in that).



The main problem - AFAIC - is that the casinos (even the 'good ones') have carte-blanche to write up how ever many questionable terms & conditions that they can think of. No one is there to stop them.



The lesser-established casino operations that are looking to move up the ladder will look at what places like 32red/iNetBet/ClubWorld have done, in terms of their model of how to run things. When they see that ClubWorld didn't have to pay (right or wrong), or that there's another problem concerning iNetBet and any one of their bonuses (even if people love iNetBet and defend them, you have to admit that there are a TON of complaints concerning bonuses and at some point in time you have to think that they ARE in fact at least partially responsible for the problem), all because the player misinterpreted or couldn't quite understand the terms & conditions. Then, what's stopping them from writing up a bunch of pointless T&Cs that can give them more outs? We could be heading to a point where the bigger gamble is following those terms to a tee, rather than overcoming the house edge.



The casino or the software provider (depending on what you believe and what is the truth) control the payouts, and in any case, there's a house edge that puts them in the winner's circle. So, basically, most of us are playing to lose (not that we're motivated by that line of thinking). Next, you may not get paid even if you do win, because they make the final decision on who gets paid. Provided that you didn't 'jump-too-high', you should be okay. Next, you should get paid after a certain amount of time, but if you'd like, you could reverse the funds and continue playing if you'd like (taken from supposed polls where players prefer to have their funds reversed as opposed to having them flushed).



When you have all of these restrictions and hang-ups over this 'n that, it's hard to think that the industry has the player's best interest at heart. I've read numerous times that any particular casino has done it's bit to protect the player, but it's hard to take those stories/angles seriously.



A player always has to have proof, show it and prove it time and time again, even though the player used and gambled with their own money. The casino holds all of the cards and are ridiculously obnoxious in flaunting their power. Especially considering all of the problems these days with banking/regulation/etc. Just because a casino has a great reputation, doesn't mean that whenever a problem starts, we should automatically assume that the player is partially rogue, and start from there. Nor should we automatically assume that when a rogue (or not very good) casino denies someone their winnings, that the player was unquestionably robbed. Good entities (casino or player) do in fact screw-up periodically.



Debating/arguing over small points in the way that a casino's T&Cs are drawn-up is all... semantics. We might as well be deciphering the meaning of an abstract painting (w/o the artist's true definition of his/her work). We should be demanding things like greater transparency, instant withdrawals, straight-forward bonuses, and 'ffs' downsizing T&C's where we only have to see that everything is good to go because we're of the legal age to gamble. Ideally, it would be awesome if every player boycotted the industry for a month (if not longer), and demanded that they make changes in how they do business; geared to it being more 'player-friendly'. Unfortunately, that will never happen.



The online casino industry is 15-years old now, and it really needs to grow up. I haven't seen enough signs that that's going to happen any time soon.



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