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The Definition of Cheating

TheLastCylon

Banned User - violation of rule 1.19
Continued from this thread.

it is not my fault that the UK government has drafted their gambling cheating laws so broadly that it is (almost) possible to claim that any breach of Ts and Cs is an offence. There does need to be an attempt to gain unfair advantage but that is it. Break the Ts and Cs and try to make money (even if you lose) is an offence. The law is hugely broad and relatively undefined via case law.

That's one of my ultimate points. No court would ever allow that violating the T&Cs automatically translates into a criminal violation. The law is a bad law, but courts aren't stupid. Well, sometimes they are stupid, but they certainly will protect their turf when it comes to determining what is and isn't a law.

No. The case law shows that cheating can be very passive - just being told by your captain to bowl a no ball or starting a dog race 2 mins early is an offence. The result does not need to be altered. The law says that just trying to cheat is an offence - the clause you refer to (3) specifically says that it does not limit that general offence in clause 1.

The two examples you cited are both active. And while it does not limit it, if we assume a nebulous definition of "cheat," we're left in the situation of casino's writing laws with their T&Cs. Again, no court would accept that. Many casinos ban pattern betting, and we know beyond doubt that that is not cheating.

Basically, the point of this very discussion is to analyze what cheating means. In colloquial terms, cheating could mean violating the T&Cs, even though I don't accept that, but I'm primarily concerned with what constitutes criminal cheating.

A poker bot fundamentally alters the game. You are betting against an automation not a person, they cannot tire, their programming never steps outside what it considers correct AND IT IS BANNED FROM THE GAME. It is cheating.

How does it alter the game? How does needing sleep matter at all? Unless we are talking about tournaments where total bets are what determines the ends, that doesn't matter. And even in that situation, I would argue that calling it criminal cheating is a huge stretch. And again, it doesn't matter if something is banned from the game. No court would ever accept that violating the T&Cs necessarily constitutes a criminal offense.

As for collusion and poker - stud games where knowledge of the cards dealt makes a huge difference is the No1 problem, cooperating in sit and go/MTT tournaments by raising and re-raising to force non colluders out comes second and chip dumping in tournaments to help players hit the top prizes comes a distant third. Chip dumping in cash games for money laundering is both uncommon and unrelated to cheating in games vs other players. It is not collusion in terms of the game.

As I was writing this, I realized that there is a theoretical situation that would almost undoubtedly count as cheating. The colluding players could combine their knowledge of all their hands in an attempt to determine the probability that a single "mark" has certain cards. This would be most acutely a problem with a limited number of decks in a shoe, and most online casinos operate with as many as ten decks in a shoe. Still, as has been determined, it doesn't matter if the actions of the cheaters actually increase the odds in their favor. All that matters is the intent.

So on this point I concede: poker collusion is probably classifiable as criminal cheating.
 
In this reboot of the discussion lets start by looking at the 2005 Gambling Act. We agree that case law is required to be certain as to what is or is not cheating. We also agree that a court would not accept that any and every breach of a sites Terms and Conditions is cheating. Some terms have nothing to do with the game, event or individual bet. Others however do relate to the rules of the game or the rules of an event that is bet upon and these are relevant to the question of cheating.

These are the objectives of the Act and are relevant to how the court would interpret cheating:

The licensing objectives
In this Act a reference to the licensing objectives is a reference to the objectives
of—
(a) preventing gambling from being a source of crime or disorder, being
associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime,
(b) ensuring that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way, and
(c) protecting children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or
exploited by gambling

It should also be noted that Section 42 of the Act on cheating is no after thought or add on. It is the only offence in the act that is not time limited - all others have a 12 month prosecution limit. Section 42 also carries the stiffest penalty with up to 2 years in gaol. This section deliberately carries the stiffest penalty and is deliberately broad in scope plus it deliberately changed the law to make it an offence even if there was no financial gain, a big change and a big evidential barrier removed. It also delibeately applies to everyone not just people licenced under the act

The act does not define cheating case by case - it is not a list of all methods of cheating, it is deliberately hugely broad in scope, but under the section giving the commission powers to void bets it does have stuff to say on what is unfair


Interestingly the act gives power to void bets for unfairness short of cheating, again this power is time limited unless there is a Section 42 offence.


Clause 42 - 3 makes it clear that altering the result is cheating - throwing the fight, not having the horse run to its capability, bowling a no ball. It also makes clear that interfering with the process of the bet is enough - starting the dog race early so that bets can go on post event. The event does not need to be altered deception or interference in the process of the bet is enough. We are still left with the undefined act though- to "cheat". Which is why we can disagree as to what is cheating.

The Gambling Commission largely refuses to clarify what is and is not cheating and says that this is up to the courts. There has been an exception to this though. They were forced by the minister to consult on inside information. That is here:

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In here they have a table showing what they see as cheating


This consultation is really just background as to what the UKGC sees as cheating, it gives us some indication of where they see the line but again we are left with a one word offence and the need for case law.

The UKGC in their review of in running betting have had a look at bots used on betting exchanges to automate bets. Crucially these bots are allowed by the exchanges - this BetDaQ Ts and Cs document makes their attitude clear:

10.19 Programs may be used by some Members in order to automatically make offers into the Exchange and enter into binding contracts with other Members based on certain specifications and variables set within the program ("Bots"). Members, whether they use Bots or not to make offers on the Exchange, should be aware that any offer could be susceptible to exploitation by other Members.

Essentially it is buyer beware - the bot may give someone an advantage but they are a legal part of the betting process under the Ts and Cs. The UKGC have essentially agreed that for now this is OK but they clearly think that with additional evidence of unfairness they might need to act, even without sites banning them.

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So for the UKGC it is whether the licencing objectives are challenged that matters on technological aids.

Now a Poker Bot run on a site that bans them - pretty much all of them - is clearly not "open". The human poker player is deceived, the bot operator is deliberately breaking the sites Ts and Cs and deceiving the site. Running such a bot is clearly against the licencing objective of open gambling.

As for whether it is "fair" - the deception itself is unfair to the site and the human opponent. The whole point of the bot is to make a profit. That profit comes from the human player in what is an even odds game. Even if it is a terrible bot and makes a loss the bot operator is trying to gain an unfair advantage. That advantage comes from pitching programming, likely including data analysis of the opponents play and adaptive algorithms against a human. The expectation of the human is that they are playing a human not a programme and so they bet as against a human.

It is also relevant that the typical target of the bot operator is the low stakes, inexperienced and generally worst players. Having a human play at these stakes professionally is not viable, the hourly earn rate would be too low. The expectation is that the opponents are similar inexperienced or relatively bad, amateur players...not a sophisticated computer programme operating as a professional agent and made financially viable at these low stakes because the betting is automated. The whole proposition - similar humans playing at a similar level in a skill based game is altered, the bets become between the human and a sophisticated, adaptive computer programme. The whole game is different, the skills required different and the competition different - instead of recreational inter-human play you have professional programmer pitched against amateur recreational player. The imbalance is obviously unfair, clearly against the rules of the bet and so clearly and undoubtedly cheating.

I'm glad that you accept that collusion can be cheating. At an 8 player table of 7 card stud 16 down cards are dealt. The non colluder knows their two only. In the worst case scenario of all 7 others colluding they all know 14 of the cards dealt. It is as with all online poker a single deck game. Knowing 14 of the remaining cards not available in future rounds rather than 2 is a huge advantage, it is also possible that the 12 extra revealed cards are crucial to interpreting the marks bets. It could be immediately clear that they cannot have three of a kind for instance or that the pair of Aces they are representing is impossible. By the final round of betting the mark has 3 down cards and 4 revealed cards. Here certainty that they do not have a straight or a flush can easily be worked out if the 12 extra known cards are the important ones - their hope of winning by bluffing is thus removed - any bluff bet is a certain and known losing proposition because of the colluders inside information.

Now, bots that share data and so actively collude are more than just a theoretical proposition. Such a bot meets your definition of cheating as well as mine.

Sorry this is so long but I wanted to get the relevant stuff I have from the UKGC docs in one post.

Do you still think running a poker bot is not cheating?
 
The Gambling Commision say:

"The Commission does not consider the use of robots by customers playing against the operator to pose a particular risk to the fair and open objective."

"We do not, therefore, propose that operators or customers must be prevented from using robots. However, we do consider that it is in the interests of the fair and open objective to give customers the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether or not they want to gamble where they may be gambling against a software program rather than another (human) participant. "

"There are varying opinions as to whether robot use in peer-to-peer gambling
provides an unfair advantage over other participants. For example, robots may be
advantageous in lower stake poker, where patience and conservative play may be an
advantage – programs will play consistently, unaffected by mood or external factors.
However, this predictability may provide more skilful players with an advantage over the
program. We will expect operators to warn customers that they may be gambling against
robots used by other customers and should display information about whether or not the
operator takes steps to prevent robots usage on their site. Where it is against the
operator’s terms and conditions, we also believe it is reasonable to require operators to
investigate customer complaints where a person believes she or he has been playing
against a robot."

So there is a clear presumption that bots are allowed, both vs. the operator, and vs. other players. Since this is the case, bots, if not prohibited by the site's terms, are not criminal. If they are prohibited, then that would be more arguable, however the passage here 'require operators to investigate ... where a person ... has been playing against a robot' suggests that this is an operational/contractual issue, rather than a criminal one.

I am not really sure why you have provided your own gloss on bots and 'fair and open', when the UKGC did a consultation on the subject and published its conclusions, which you have quoted, and which would be highly persuasive on UK law.

Collusion can be done by humans, or by bots, and is not particularly associated with bots as opposed to humans, so it's not particularly useful to confuse a discussion on the legality of bots with talk of collusion: if a non-colluding bot is not cheating in law, but a colluding bot is, then that's not a bot issue, but a collusion issue.
 
So there is a clear presumption that bots are allowed, both vs. the operator, and vs. other players. Since this is the case, bots, if not prohibited by the site's terms, are not criminal. If they are prohibited, then that would be more arguable, however the passage here 'require operators to investigate ... where a person ... has been playing against a robot' suggests that this is an operational/contractual issue, rather than a criminal one.

I am not really sure why you have provided your own gloss on bots and 'fair and open', when the UKGC did a consultation on the subject and published its conclusions, which you have quoted, and which would be highly persuasive on UK law.

I included the information I had on what the UKGC said about bots in the specific environment of betting exchanges operating in running betting because it informs the debate. There the human enters into a known single contract with the bot on an independent event by . The potential advantage over the human is timing of the bet in relation to developing events. The main selling point of the bot - greening up bets to get an arbitrage does not impact the punter taking one side nor when the punter makes the offer does it really matter if the party accepting the human offer is a bot.

The UKGC report on in running sports betting says nothing about bots used against sites, it was only about intra player contracts. It also says nothing about bots used in contravention of Ts and Cs. Again it says nothing about poker bots used against players both in contravention of the Ts and Cs and as an agent in the game.

The quote saying they don't believe regulatory action is necessary against "bots" (now) is a very specific and limited comment on one specific type of bot, not a general ruling. Their attitude tough, that intervention would be driven by concerns about "open and fair" is very relevant.

When I quoted it I realised that the very quote I used, taken out of context, would seem to demolish my argument. In context though it strengthens my case.
 
Actually the UKGC have commented on bots multiple times.

The document I quoted specifically states its scope, which is very wide and specifically includes poker bots

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1.29 It is possible for customers and operators to deploy software to gamble on their
behalf. The software, known as a robot or a ‘bot’, gambles according to a predetermined
strategy. Robots may be used:
i. by customers to play against the operator in a player vs. house game (ie not peerto-peer);
ii. by operators who seek to attract customers by offering a greater choice of
gambling options within a peer-to-peer game, for instance by populating more
poker tables in an on-line poker room; or
iii. by customers to play against other players in a peer-to-peer game.
1.30 The Commission does not consider the use of robots by customers playing against
the operator to pose a particular risk to the fair and open objective.
1.31 There are varying opinions as to whether robot use in peer-to-peer gambling
provides an unfair advantage over other participants. For example, robots may be
advantageous in lower stake poker, where patience and conservative play may be an
advantage – programs will play consistently, unaffected by mood or external factors.
However, this predictability may provide more skilful players with an advantage over the
program. We do not, therefore, propose that operators or customers must be prevented
from using robots. However, we do consider that it is in the interests of the fair and
open objective to give customers the opportunity to make an informed choice about
whether or not they want to gamble where they may be gambling against a software
program rather than another (human) participant.
 
Actually the UKGC have commented on bots multiple times.

The document I quoted specifically states its scope, which is very wide and specifically includes poker bots

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that is the consultation document from 2007 on the technical standards. it is solely about what should be in the technical standards not about Section 42 at all. The target audience for the consultation are licence holders. This is about additional regulation not cheating. That bit on additional requirements is key - it is not about section 42 and cheating at all.

Now the UKGC suffers from not actually licencing remote gambling sites or poker sites so they are often a bit ignorant of the issues but they did produce their technical standards from this consultation in 2009. They do have some rules on automated gambling and here they are:

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These are additional to the 2005 Act and the cheating law.

Now let us look at the requirements: if the site deploys a poker bot playing on its behalf. They need to tell players that they do this. You will also note that there is no requirement in these rules to identify which of the players you face are House Bots.

Ok I am warned. Now what technical limitations are placed by these technical standards on the site run bots. well - NONE. Now this is a huge hole in regulation but the UKGC defence would be that the cheating rule still applies if anyone deploys a cheating bot.

Now - the site has data on every hand you have ever played, your stakes, your experience, your betting pattern, your folding propensity. You have no access to the anonymous bots history, or at best you played them a bit before. that is not every hand. If it uses that data is it cheating?

The theorem of poker as expressed by Slansky and accepted throughout the poker world as fundamental to the game is that the whole point is to make others players make mistakes - that is mistakes defined as making bets, calls or folds that are mathematically incorrect if they knew what your hole cards are. This is a central but often unknown central tenant of the game. It is the whole shebang.

Now if a poker site has a bot that knows your hole cards and deploys a bot knowing your cards and is programmed to win at whatever pre set rate they decide - that is not poker. Yet according to the technical standards, this is not banned. All they need is to say they run bots. For me that is cheating.
Indeed I don't know how anyone looking at poker would not see that knowing your opponents card is cheating.

Without the cheating law what defence do we have against site deployed bots? (no published RTP for them).

Now we turn to player run bots. they either operate within the sites terms and conditions (no sites) or they cheat by breaking the terms and conditions - warning people that others might cheat is the technical requirement...but that tells us nothing about cheating as an offence. They are in direct contravention of the rules of the game, they are designed to win...they cheat.

The UKGC consultation on the technical standards and the technical standards themselves do not define "cheating" (thank god) on bots or anything else. they are additional legal restrictions. Cheating is defined by breaking the rules and offering an unfair game. A player bot deceives and cheats, a site run bot has additional and hugely powerful options to cheat...even within the technical standards. thank goodness we have a broad cheating offence to protect us.
 


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