The Future of the European Union

[geordiecolin]

It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?

 

[orion]

I can tell you that here in Italy most people I am talking with is losing 100% all trust or confidence on Europe.
At least on THIS Europe where the interests of individual states prevail over the interests of the community.

Many ones say: "ok let's get out of this pandemia first, out of this Europe then".

My personal opinion is that we missed an opportunity some years ago, when Europe could be consolidated by beginnig speaking about a common army, a common tax-scheme, a common welfare, a common language and so on. Nothing was done, Europe was kept just as an economic or financial alliance.

That's not enough, and in the moment of crisis (as the one we are living now) this is becoming evident. Even because there is someone who is trying to take advantage of the situation, rather than trying to help others.

History repeats itself.

It's a pity.

 

[vorcirion]

It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?

I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.

 

[nikantw]

An election for the European Parliament was held May 2019.
What did people say with their votes?

That everything is fine as long as they can blame immigrants and British for all the problems.

I don't know what will happen but it won't be good.

 

[dunover]

The EU in its present form with open borders, Central Bank, colossally expensive parliament and bureaucracy was doomed to failure anyway. It had morphed way away from the vision Thatcher had and indeed was a major force in creating back in the late 1980's, of easy free trade, deregulation and removal of currency restrictions. It worked for a while then from the 1990's we saw creeping political ambition, increase in central powers and removal of sovereignty from member states to a large extent. This was allowed to grow unchecked, finally giving us the unwieldy, expensive and corrupt pile of crap we have now.
It's not just the UK that's fed up with the whole mess. If it wants to survive it should slim down into a trading bloc with standardized and basic requirements for trade only. Lose the parliament, the committees and open borders stupidity.

 

[geordiecolin]

I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.

I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations

 

[vorcirion]

I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations

Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.

 

[Playford7]

I don't know how to take your post really. It feels like it's coming from a brexiteer who really hates EU or from russian troll farm that's designed to divide people. So I'll just say that we (the finnish people) trust our government and I'll trust that the EU will help its member states after seeing what kind of damage the virus has done to each of the member states.

Just like they helped Greece...

 

[Davey86]

Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.

Come back to this thread in 6 months for the state of play within the European Union or what’s left of it! Personally I was remain

 

[geordiecolin]

Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.

What possible influence could my opinion have on EU events? It would be a bit difficult to accomodate a kick in the nuts given that I identify as being a Russian Babushka!

 

[geordiecolin]

Of course it matters. It feels like you're on a mission to divide the EU as much as possible. If you're a brexiteer...you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts from the EU so the EU gets what it wants from the UK (and thus helping its member states).

If you're a russian troll then you just deserve a hard kick in the nuts IRL.

As we are still stuck with lumping money into the EU the UK is thouroghly entitled to demand financial assistance from the EU too with this crisis

 

[TheAddict]

I have presented the state of play at this time. Does it matter what side of the fence I may be on? The fact is that a lot of questions are being asked from their own EU loving nations

Of course it matters. You dared to think out loud about something that on paper doesn't look to good for the EU, and then doubled down by asking other peoples opinion . Be careful who you do that around.
In this case, it activated his NPC automatic response mode which is to start calling you things like a troll, a anti this [EU] or anti thwt whenever possible, and as witnessed, even go as far as to suggest you are a sneaky fuckin russian.
With backup this is extremly effective and will often succeed in shutting down anything that is perceived as a possible threat.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

It's as good as finished in its current guise IMO.

This virus has caused an absolute tsunami both socially and politically.

 

[ternur]

Bring back national borders. Bring back revaluations of currencies. Dismantle EU.

It would for the best if the rest of the EU nations were to added to The Commonwealth of Nations. I'd vote for that.

 

[geordiecolin]

Of course it matters. You dared to think out loud about something that on paper doesn't look to good for the EU, and then doubled down by asking other peoples opinion . Be careful who you do that around.
In this case, it activated his NPC automatic response mode which is to start calling you things like a troll, a anti this [EU] or anti thwt whenever possible, and as witnessed, even go as far as to suggest you are a sneaky fuckin russian.
With backup this is extremly effective and will often succeed in shutting down anything that is perceived as a possible threat.

View attachment 126897

It is a more common tactic than many may realise

 

[vorcirion]

It's sort of funny how upset you brexit people were when other people were suggesting doom and gloom for the UK after brexit. Now you're trying to do the same for the EU But yeah have at it! I'll keep trusting the EU and you can have this room for your silliness.
One country I would throw out of the EU is Hungary. They've become antidemocratic.

 

[Mouche12]

There's some positive news too.

The Netherlands has made the suggestion to a few rich countries to set up a temporary emergency fund to help countries like Italy and Spain deal with the corona crisis. NL's contribution would amount to roughly €1 billion, according to W. Hoekstra, the Dutch Minister of Finance.

Also, the European Commission signaled it’s set to unveil a 100 billion-euro plan to help governments pay companies to keep workers in jobs. It will take the form of a lending scheme underpinned by guarantees from EU member countries, according to a draft document seen by

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.

 

[geordiecolin]

It's sort of funny how upset you brexit people were when other people were suggesting doom and gloom for the UK after brexit. Now you're trying to do the same for the EU But yeah have at it! I'll keep trusting the EU and you can have this room for your silliness.
One country I would throw out of the EU is Hungary. They've become antidemocratic.

I do not recall much upset from Brexiteers at all. In fact I thought the thread was filled with huge optimism

 

[geordiecolin]

There's some positive news too.

The Netherlands has made the suggestion to a few rich countries to set up a temporary emergency fund to help countries like Italy and Spain deal with the corona crisis. NL's contribution would amount to roughly €1 billion, according to W. Hoekstra, the Dutch Minister of Finance.

Also, the European Commission signaled it’s set to unveil a 100 billion-euro plan to help governments pay companies to keep workers in jobs. It will take the form of a lending scheme underpinned by guarantees from EU member countries, according to a draft document seen by

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.

In the form of bonds?

 

[Mouche12]

Prime Minister Rutte now thinks that a gift is preferred over any form of loans. Just transfer the money to countries that need it the most, is his suggestion.

 

[geordiecolin]

Prime Minister Rutte now thinks that a gift is preferred over any form of loans. Just transfer the money to countries that need it the most, is his suggestion.

I don't see why they can not simply dip into the reserved of cash they have and give the countries that most need it. It is there money anyway. But they won't do that because they will need that vast wealth in order to keep a stranglehold over those still on their knees after it's all over. As far as I see it also if they sell bonds who will buy them? China?

 

[Harry_BKK]

It appears to me that EU members who have been most effected by this Coronavirus are deeply unhappy about the lack of involvement by the EU who seem more preoccupied with talks with smaller nations joining the EU.
For me it seems like a big shift is happening when its not just Brexiteers critisizing the EU but its own member states. And their pleading and warnings seem to be quite blunt.
Italy are screaming out for assitance from the EU "Today the EU does not have the means to respond to the crisis in a united front. If it does not prove to exist it will cease to exist" Was part of a letter to the EU from all colours of the Italian political class. This as well as Italy harking back to the end of the 2nd WW where Germany where bailed out. ( Because the Germans know that they will eventually be responsible for picking up the bill with a few other EU Members)
Following this a very pro EU ex Italian Prime minister Enrico Letta ( Sp?) Has stated " When you are on the Titanic there is no such thing as third class or first class- Your all going down together"
Portugal are also upset that the EU are refusing to dip into their coffers.In fact at least 9 EU member states are clammering for the EU to help them out but they have been turned away,specifically by Germany, Austria,Finland and the Dutch.
The Dutch have stated that "It would cross the line into a eurozone which is more of a transfer union than was envisioned by its creators! I can not see any circumstances in which we could change that position"- So as far as I can see that is a huge "Feck off,your not getting any of our reserves"
The Spanish PM said
" Europe is on the line. It can not fail on this because even the most pro-European Countries and Governments like Spain need proof of a commitment. It's Europes move"
The EU's response is " EU countries should have the economic ability to deal with their own problems"
While this is playing out The French PM wants the EU to have even more control of each member states economy including taxes.

It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees. EU Countries will have a choice of either handing over total control over to the EU as they will control the purse strings or they decide to break away and go it alone.

What is the sentiment on the EU in your Country right now?

"It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees."

Those countries were on their knees before they joined the EU/adopted the EURO. Portuguese Real, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lira, Greek Drachma, French Franc - none had any weight whatsoever. They got a favourable exchange for a hard currency that is on par with the USD and GBP. That was a real transfer, trillions not the few billions we are talking now to assist in a crisis.

I remember Italy just recently was screaming they do not care about the EU and will increase their debt as much as they want to fulfil their populist election promises, no matter what. Now they want the EU to help. So one day they spit on it, the next day they want help. Which is it?

Spain and Portugal, together with Greece and Italy were always the weaker links in the EU and would run into problems at the smallest onset of a crisis. If you look carefully (all is public information) they are some of the countries who are getting most out of the EU coffers every year anyway. You can always check which year they made a net contribution to the EU budget and if how much that was!!!

The EU will survive just fine, I have no doubt whatsoever. And it is not like they are doing nothing, just go back to the 2008/2009 crisis and check who bailed out all those countries???? Those mechanisms like the ESM are still in place.

But you can follow populist screamers if that is what you prefer.

 

[geordiecolin]

"It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees."

Those countries were on their knees before they joined the EU/adopted the EURO. Portuguese Real, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lira, Greek Drachma, French Franc - none had any weight whatsoever. They got a favourable exchange for a hard currency that is on par with the USD and GBP. That was a real transfer, trillions not the few billions we are talking now to assist in a crisis.

I remember Italy just recently was screaming they do not care about the EU and will increase their debt as much as they want to fulfil their populist election promises, no matter what. Now they want the EU to help. So one day they spit on it, the next day they want help. Which is it?

Spain and Portugal, together with Greece and Italy were always the weaker links in the EU and would run into problems at the smallest onset of a crisis. If you look carefully (all is public information) they are some of the countries who are getting most out of the EU coffers every year anyway. You can always check which year they made a net contribution to the EU budget and if how much that was!!!

The EU will survive just fine, I have no doubt whatsoever. And it is not like they are doing nothing, just go back to the 2008/2009 crisis and check who bailed out all those countries???? Those mechanisms like the ESM are still in place.

But you can follow populist screamers if that is what you prefer.

Harry the European Union have many criteria that needs to be met prior to joining the Union. This is why Turkey has not been unsuccessful in joining for over 20 years. All of the Countries you mention met that criteria,including fiscal.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Harry the European Union have many criteria that needs to be met prior to joining the Union. This is why Turkey has not been unsuccessful in joining for over 20 years. All of the Countries you mention met that criteria,including fiscal.

And if you go through the history records, some countries weren't exactly truthful with regards to those criteria. That transpired only after they adopted the EURO. Kicking them out again would have been though more devastating, so they were allowed to keep it as the union considered itself strong enough to support them.

Turkey has a lot of other issues than fiscal.

 

[mack341]

Coronabonds and the idea of European financial unity

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Deutsche Welle.com

Italian Prime Minister Guiseppe Conte:

"What do we want to do in Europe? Does each member state want to go its own way?" he asked in a televized interview on Tuesday evening, pointing to the huge aid package of $2 trillion the US is using to respond to its own coronavirus crisis.

"If the response is not a common, serious and coordinated response, Europe will become less and less competitive, including in the global market," said Conte. And German taxpayers shouldn't be afraid. Coronabonds did not mean that the Germans "had to pay even a single euro for Italian debt."

During the euro debt crisis around a decade ago, the German government could be sure that most of the leading economists shared their rejection of eurobonds. Now in the coronavirus crisis this is no longer the case.

Seven prominent economists including Michael Hüther, head of the Institute of German Economics (IW), Peter Bofinger, and Gabriel Felbermayr, head of the Kiel Institute for World Economy (IfW), are now drumming publicly for coronabonds.

"The strong have to help the weak. Now is the time when the much-praised community with a common destiny has to show its true colors," wrote the economists in an article that appeared in five European newspapers simultaneously.

Borrowing together 1 trillion euros would be "a clear sign that Europe is in a crisis together." The signal could not be missed. Not a single overwhelmed country would have to apply by itself. "Europeans manage the crisis together," wrote the economists.

...The decisive difference for Hüther is that coronabonds are not permanent, but a one-off solution. There is even a historical example for this, he says. In 1975, the European Community issued a bond to mitigate the effects of the oil price shock. "That was apparently not a problem at the time, why can't we do that in this crisis too?" he asked.

He sees coronabonds as a "litmus test for European solidarity." All countries that are doing badly wonder who is going to help them. "In the end, if it's just the Chinese or maybe the Russians, then I think the breakup of the European Union will be unstoppable." And that cannot be in the interest of the German economy.

"If we don't stabilize Europe, our markets won't be there either," he concluded.

-------------

I wonder what the problem is if the german taxpayer won't end up having to pay italian debt?

 

[Harry_BKK]

Coronabonds and the idea of European financial unity

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Deutsche Welle.com

Italian Prime Minister Guiseppe Conte:

"What do we want to do in Europe? Does each member state want to go its own way?" he asked in a televized interview on Tuesday evening, pointing to the huge aid package of $2 trillion the US is using to respond to its own coronavirus crisis.

"If the response is not a common, serious and coordinated response, Europe will become less and less competitive, including in the global market," said Conte. And German taxpayers shouldn't be afraid. Coronabonds did not mean that the Germans "had to pay even a single euro for Italian debt."

During the euro debt crisis around a decade ago, the German government could be sure that most of the leading economists shared their rejection of eurobonds. Now in the coronavirus crisis this is no longer the case.

Seven prominent economists including Michael Hüther, head of the Institute of German Economics (IW), Peter Bofinger, and Gabriel Felbermayr, head of the Kiel Institute for World Economy (IfW), are now drumming publicly for coronabonds.

"The strong have to help the weak. Now is the time when the much-praised community with a common destiny has to show its true colors," wrote the economists in an article that appeared in five European newspapers simultaneously.

Borrowing together 1 trillion euros would be "a clear sign that Europe is in a crisis together." The signal could not be missed. Not a single overwhelmed country would have to apply by itself. "Europeans manage the crisis together," wrote the economists.

...The decisive difference for Hüther is that coronabonds are not permanent, but a one-off solution. There is even a historical example for this, he says. In 1975, the European Community issued a bond to mitigate the effects of the oil price shock. "That was apparently not a problem at the time, why can't we do that in this crisis too?" he asked.

He sees coronabonds as a "litmus test for European solidarity." All countries that are doing badly wonder who is going to help them. "In the end, if it's just the Chinese or maybe the Russians, then I think the breakup of the European Union will be unstoppable." And that cannot be in the interest of the German economy.

"If we don't stabilize Europe, our markets won't be there either," he concluded.

-------------

I wonder what the problem is if the german taxpayer won't end up having to pay italian debt?

It is tricky as always.

They set up the ESM in the aftermath of the 2008 crisis which basically guarantees the debt that a country would take. There is still EUR0.5 trillion left that can be used.

The country would be responsible for the debt, the ESM only a guarantor. Using the ESM, the interest rate can be held low and it attracts investors to buy the said country's debt bonds.

In turn, Coronabonds would be issued directly by the EU, meaning that all would shoulder it together.

Conte was offered to use the ESM and he refused, knowing well that Italy has already a massive amount of debt. So for him, it would be "nicer" if all EU countries carry the extra borrowing and the Italians can carry on splashing around with the cash as they have always done.

 

[nikantw]

"It is my guess that once the crisis is over most Countries will be on their knees."

Those countries were on their knees before they joined the EU/adopted the EURO. Portuguese Real, Spanish Peseta, Italian Lira, Greek Drachma, French Franc - none had any weight whatsoever. They got a favourable exchange for a hard currency that is on par with the USD and GBP. That was a real transfer, trillions not the few billions we are talking now to assist in a crisis.

I remember Italy just recently was screaming they do not care about the EU and will increase their debt as much as they want to fulfil their populist election promises, no matter what. Now they want the EU to help. So one day they spit on it, the next day they want help. Which is it?

Spain and Portugal, together with Greece and Italy were always the weaker links in the EU and would run into problems at the smallest onset of a crisis. If you look carefully (all is public information) they are some of the countries who are getting most out of the EU coffers every year anyway. You can always check which year they made a net contribution to the EU budget and if how much that was!!!

The EU will survive just fine, I have no doubt whatsoever. And it is not like they are doing nothing, just go back to the 2008/2009 crisis and check who bailed out all those countries???? Those mechanisms like the ESM are still in place.

But you can follow populist screamers if that is what you prefer.

Many truths there but not the whole picture. For example, it is impossible to have all countries with a surplus. What you need is a mechanism to recycle the surplus of the rich ones through the poor ones. You help yourself by helping others.

Having a currency but not the Central Bank to manage it is the sure way to economic crisis.
For example, Greece had a 40 billion hidden debt when they entered Euro. No other huge real problems and no private debt. No toxic bonds affected by the US 2008 crisis, no big budget problems.

Yet, "managing" and "helping" Greece with the 40 billion debt, has cost the greek economy over 5 trillion*

Of course the Greek Government in 2009 started the crisis. And I am 100% pro-EU. But we can't fix a problem if we can't realize what the problem is.

Imagine a hunter and a chef living in an isolated island. The hunter gets the food and the chef cooks it. Both have something to eat. Introduce them to a banker and they will eventually starve to death!


* Using the same formula Thomas Wieser and other officials used to calculate the cost 2015 had to the Greek economy.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Many truths there but not the whole picture. For example, it is impossible to have all countries with a surplus. What you need is a mechanism to recycle the surplus of the rich ones through the poor ones. You help yourself by helping others.

Having a currency but not the Central Bank to manage it is the sure way to economic crisis.
For example, Greece had a 40 billion hidden debt when they entered Euro. No other huge real problems and no private debt. No toxic bonds affected by the US 2008 crisis, no big budget problems.

Yet, "managing" and "helping" Greece with the 40 billion debt, has cost the greek economy over 5 trillion*

Of course the Greek Government in 2009 started the crisis. And I am 100% pro-EU. But we can't fix a problem if we can't realize what the problem is.

Imagine a hunter and a chef living in an isolated island. The hunter gets the food and the chef cooks it. Both have something to eat. Introduce them to a banker and they will eventually starve to death!


* Using the same formula Thomas Wieser and other officials used to calculate the cost 2015 had to the Greek economy.

Greece had already hidden debt when they changed to the EURO in 2002. Just like Italy and Spain. They promised reforms and nothing or very little was done.

Taking up your hunter/chef metaphor - a hunter can never hunt enough if the cook burns it all when he cooks it.

Greece, Italy and Spain were never fiscally responsible countries (well, not in the last decades) and instead of learning and changing, they still keep doing it "their way". That is until the "sh*t hits the fan" and then they demand that all should come together and help them. It doesn't work that way either.

 

[nikantw]

Greece had already hidden debt when they changed to the EURO in 2002. Just like Italy and Spain. They promised reforms and nothing or very little was done.

Taking up your hunter/chef metaphor - a hunter can never hunt enough if the cook burns it all when he cooks it.

Greece, Italy and Spain were never fiscally responsible countries (well, not in the last decades) and instead of learning and changing, they still keep doing it "their way". That is until the "sh*t hits the fan" and then they demand that all should come together and help them. It doesn't work that way either.

I already said that Greece had a very small hidden debt in 2002.

You are wrong about everything else. Just look closer to the numbers. 40 billion cost many trillions.

To get back to you to the hunter/chef metaphor, the chef only burned 10% of the food and only one day. Don't you think that is a little bit different than saying burns all the food all the time? Do the numbers say that he burned all the food all the time?

 

[geordiecolin]

And if you go through the history records, some countries weren't exactly truthful with regards to those criteria. That transpired only after they adopted the EURO. Kicking them out again would have been though more devastating, so they were allowed to keep it as the union considered itself strong enough to support them.

Turkey has a lot of other issues than fiscal.

Are you suggesting that the capitalistic EU that you do not seem to have a bad word to say about have been consistantly guilty of neglecting due diligence when it comes to allowing Countries to join by deception?

And you didn't read properly what I said about why Turkey had not joined yet

 

[geordiecolin]

Coronabonds and the idea of European financial unity

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Deutsche Welle.com

Italian Prime Minister Guiseppe Conte:

"What do we want to do in Europe? Does each member state want to go its own way?" he asked in a televized interview on Tuesday evening, pointing to the huge aid package of $2 trillion the US is using to respond to its own coronavirus crisis.

"If the response is not a common, serious and coordinated response, Europe will become less and less competitive, including in the global market," said Conte. And German taxpayers shouldn't be afraid. Coronabonds did not mean that the Germans "had to pay even a single euro for Italian debt."

During the euro debt crisis around a decade ago, the German government could be sure that most of the leading economists shared their rejection of eurobonds. Now in the coronavirus crisis this is no longer the case.

Seven prominent economists including Michael Hüther, head of the Institute of German Economics (IW), Peter Bofinger, and Gabriel Felbermayr, head of the Kiel Institute for World Economy (IfW), are now drumming publicly for coronabonds.

"The strong have to help the weak. Now is the time when the much-praised community with a common destiny has to show its true colors," wrote the economists in an article that appeared in five European newspapers simultaneously.

Borrowing together 1 trillion euros would be "a clear sign that Europe is in a crisis together." The signal could not be missed. Not a single overwhelmed country would have to apply by itself. "Europeans manage the crisis together," wrote the economists.

...The decisive difference for Hüther is that coronabonds are not permanent, but a one-off solution. There is even a historical example for this, he says. In 1975, the European Community issued a bond to mitigate the effects of the oil price shock. "That was apparently not a problem at the time, why can't we do that in this crisis too?" he asked.

He sees coronabonds as a "litmus test for European solidarity." All countries that are doing badly wonder who is going to help them. "In the end, if it's just the Chinese or maybe the Russians, then I think the breakup of the European Union will be unstoppable." And that cannot be in the interest of the German economy.

"If we don't stabilize Europe, our markets won't be there either," he concluded.

-------------

I wonder what the problem is if the german taxpayer won't end up having to pay italian debt?

Maybe the only two buyers are either China or Russia? China are accused of being the biggest profiteers of the virus despite all of the critisisms leveled at it about the virus.

 

[mack341]

An interesting graphic I just found and thought it was worth posting: [from 2018 - the world economic forum website ]

 

[geordiecolin]

An interesting graphic I just found and thought it was worth posting: [from 2018 - the world economic forum website ]

View attachment 126930

Focusing on that hurt my eyes!

 

[mack341]

Focusing on that hurt my eyes!

I can make it disappear ?

 

[geordiecolin]

I can make it disappear ?

I bet that all of those countries with huge dept would love you too

 

[mack341]

I'll remove it, it might be a nightmare for tablet users

edit: I've changed it to a thumbnail

 

[Harry_BKK]

Are you suggesting that the capitalistic EU that you do not seem to have a bad word to say about have been consistantly guilty of neglecting due diligence when it comes to allowing Countries to join by deception?

And you didn't read properly what I said about why Turkey had not joined yet

I have no doubt that some mistakes were made when the EURO was introduced. One side maybe looking away a little and the other cheating with the numbers to keep the train moving.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I already said that Greece had a very small hidden debt in 2002.

You are wrong about everything else. Just look closer to the numbers. 40 billion cost many trillions.

To get back to you to the hunter/chef metaphor, the chef only burned 10% of the food and only one day. Don't you think that is a little bit different than saying burns all the food all the time? Do the numbers say that he burned all the food all the time?

Greece went past the 100% debt-to-GDP ratio before they introduced the EURO. They were admitted with the promise to introduce reforms. Nothing was done, e.g. they do not collect taxes from salaries etc., people declare them once a year and are always late, leaving the treasury out of pocket all the time. That is madness.

So to keep with the original metaphor - the cook burned the food already while he was an apprentice and still keeps burning it now.

 

[nikantw]

Debt under or just over 100% Then the EU "helped" Greece and "all is good" now.

I admit that many reforms were needed.
If you don't know it, all the bailout loans were given under strict reform terms closely monitored all the way and enforced even by closing all the banks.

The other comments about taxes aren't true and I don't even understand what you are trying to say.
The only truth is the over taxation of the public sector that strangles anything good together with the lack of funds (banks barely work, no public investments)

Many reforms were made, too many. Some absolutely necessary, some made no difference, some could help but in the wrong context did a lot of damage and some were really really bad. Every EU official admitted that mistakes were made. How can you not say that with many trillions damage to the Greek economy?

 

[Harry_BKK]

View attachment 126932

Debt under or just over 100% Then the EU "helped" Greece and "all is good" now.

I admit that many reforms were needed.
If you don't know it, all the bailout loans were given under strict reform terms closely monitored all the way and enforced even by closing all the banks.

The other comments about taxes aren't true and I don't even understand what you are trying to say.
The only truth is the over taxation of the public sector that strangles anything good together with the lack of funds (banks barely work, no public investments)

Many reforms were made, too many. Some absolutely necessary, some made no difference, some could help but in the wrong context did a lot of damage and some were really really bad. Every EU official admitted that mistakes were made. How can you not say that with many trillions damage to the Greek economy?

I got the tax thing partially wrong as I read about it some years ago and did not remember the exact details. However, Greece always had and still has to this day a tax collection problem as it has become the norm to evade paying taxes. Over the years, that has meant billions of Euro that were not collected by the treasury.

The trillions are what Greek companies have lost in business, not in real net profit. Please do not mix those two. But that has other reasons too, not just the country's debt.

Greece was very competitive with the Drachma, that changed dramatically when the EURO was introduced. And the increase in productivity was not sufficient to offset that. So the government borrowed more and more without a clear plan what to do in the future.

Reforms were only done when the EU/IWF requested them, not because the Greek government or politicians saw the problem.

 

[nikantw]

I got the tax thing partially wrong as I read about it some years ago and did not remember the exact details. However, Greece always had and still has to this day a tax collection problem as it has become the norm to evade paying taxes. Over the years, that has meant billions of Euro that were not collected by the treasury.

The trillions are what Greek companies have lost in business, not in real net profit. Please do not mix those two. But that has other reasons too, not just the country's debt.

Greece was very competitive with the Drachma, that changed dramatically when the EURO was introduced. And the increase in productivity was not sufficient to offset that. So the government borrowed more and more without a clear plan what to do in the future.

Reforms were only done when the EU/IWF requested them, not because the Greek government or politicians saw the problem.

As I said, I agree that reforms were needed. And yes, Greek governments are to blame for most of the crisis.
And yes the EU had to enforce even the necessary reforms.

But the crisis cost trillions and it shouldn't. Was under EU supervision, hundreds of billions from the European tax payers to cover a 40 billion debt. It doesn't make sense. It shouldn't happen.

I am not confusing anything about the cost of the crisis. I am simply using the formula Thomas Wieser and many other officials used to discredit the attempt in 2015 to avoid overtaxation and commitment to unrealistic surpluses, or asking for a debt payment restructuring that would end the crisis.

It all started with the euro. All prices got up, the first salary with a university degree wasn't even enough for rent+food. Banks started to offer loans to everyone. You could buy a house and the loan payments would be as much as the rent. Private debt rised.

2009: We should be ok, no toxic bonds in our banks, they say. Yet the gonverment wants to introduce some austerity and make some good reforms. Sensible thinking, but the opposed party wins the elections with the "there is plenty of money, no reforms needed".

After the elections and for many months, daily statements from every official in Greece and EU said "Greece has a huge problem" and made sure the interest rate got so high that the relatively small debt became unpayable. Really? All that for just 40 billion? It was later revealed that the "there is plenty of money" prime minister was in talks with IMF even before the elections.

Imagine if the new Greek gonverment, after the elections, simply had announced reforms and a 4 year plan to cover the 40 bn hidden debt. No huge interest rates, no bailouts, no unemployment.

To go back to the first post, Greece needed reforms but that or the debt wasn't the reason GDP dropped almost 30% or unemployment got to 45% for young people (30% overall). Austerity and closed banks did that.

 

[mack341]

If all the big firms and top 1% people didn't evade tax in the uk we'd have less govt debt too, even people working for the bbc, including high profile presenters, were also routeing their pay for years through elaborate schemes to dodge tax.

Not to forget the EU former presdent Juncker helping the massive corporations evade tax by setting up in luxembourg.

So it's not just a greek problem, although there it sounded like the everyday people weren't paying taxes, that was the impression the uk msm gave me.

If the germans and greeks had a common currency, were macro economic problems likely to occur down the line due to this? The answer was yes, but the EU and single currency project was more important, and any problems can be dealt with later was likely the thinking...

 

[Kroffe]

If all the big firms and top 1% people didn't evade tax in the uk we'd have less govt debt too, even people working for the bbc, including high profile presenters, were also routeing their pay for years through elaborate schemes to dodge tax.

Not to forget the EU former presdent Juncker helping the massive corporations evade tax by setting up in luxembourg.

So it's not just a greek problem, although there it sounded like the everyday people weren't paying taxes, that was the impression the uk msm gave me.

If the germans and greeks had a common currency, were macro economic problems likely to occur down the line due to this? The answer was yes, but the EU and single currency project was more important, and any problems can be dealt with later was likely the thinking...

I thought about the tax-dodging and sports a while ago.
Alot of Swedish players that reach higher divisions in football,hockey etc are real quick to get an adress in some tax-haven so they can avoid the rather large Swedish tax.
I mean, i can understand wanting to avoid paying millions in tax, but its not like they cant afford it.
And the education&Training they got while young were most probably "free" since it was paid for by taxes.
Pretty shitty thing to do imo.

 

[mack341]

I'd forgotten about the football players, agents etc.. they always say you collect more tax with a lower rate as people/firms won't seek to avoid it, but with luxembourg letting multinational firms set up there and pay 1% or less, how low do we need to go

 

[Kroffe]

I'd forgotten about the football players, agents etc.. they always say you collect more tax with a lower rate as people/firms won't seek to avoid it, but with luxembourg letting multinational firms set up there and pay 1% or less, how low do we need to go

Yeah, its kind of hard to compete with that.

 

[nikantw]

I saw 2 movies related to war and hate,

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and

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.

It makes me very sad to see people talk about closing borders and pointing fingers to minorities and blaming them for their problems. The same thing started world war 2.

Since I was a kid I thought the natural evolution of humanity would be to open borders and work together as one. Yet since I was a kid I only see us finding new (or remembering old) reasons to hate each other.

The biggest problem is bad economic policies. Money shouldn't stop us from doing what needs to be done, it is as simple as that. We created money to help us, not to enslave us. In Europe the "banker" doesn't care how good the "hunter" or the "chef" is. Closing the banks of a country was an unbelievable act of cruelty and stupidity and that is just one small example.

UK, having kept control of its central bank, did many good steps since 2008. But being a reasonable country in a stupid Europe led millions of people to the UK for a better future. That is why we had brexit.

My only hope now is that the new crisis will help us unite and do what needs to be done. Use money as a solution and not as a problem.

 

[geordiecolin]

When it seemed like Italy was about to throw the towel in with the EU over the past few days it seems that the EU have came back with a grovelling apology.
"It is true that no one was really read for this.It is also true that too many where not there on the time when Italy needed a helping hand at the very beginning.And yes,for that Europe Europe as a whole offers a heart felt apology"
I hope that it is too little and too late.
Lets see how they will eventually help Italy,Spain and others.

 

[geordiecolin]

The EU are signing off the EU Crisis package is about off but Italy,Spain and France will not be given a bail out but a EU loan. Will Italy agree to it or will they just sell Italian bonds instead? Will Italy decide to leave the EU instead? It seems like the Italy public are not impressed.
It is looking very rocky

 

[dionysus]

I saw 2 movies related to war and hate,

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and

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.

It makes me very sad to see people talk about closing borders and pointing fingers to minorities and blaming them for their problems. The same thing started world war 2.

Since I was a kid I thought the natural evolution of humanity would be to open borders and work together as one.

I think it's entirely possible to have a unified (ish) planet, race utlimately wont be the factor as we blend races and cultures and focus on 'human' race as one race; but it won't ever happen until religion takes a backseat to cooperation