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Resolved Betfred - The bonus abuse accusing king

R

rpalmer83

Dormant Account
CM Veteran (10yr+)
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Location
UK
This may be a bit long winded to please bear with me:

After I claimed and played the signup bonus at BetFred casino back in 2006 I was told immediately afterwards I was no longer welcome to any promotions unless I played in the casino without claiming a bonus. However I was not mererly interested in the bonuses on offer and continued to be a regular player there and have deposited, played won money and lost money. The natural way of gambling.

This weekend, From Thursday to Saturday BetFred casino have been running a promotion, where you get a 20% bonus on all deposits over the course of the promotion upto a maximum of 400. You had to email them to opt into the promotion. There was a choice of an ALL GAMES bonus and a MOST games bonus. I chose the ALL GAMES bonus, bearing in mind I haven't had any promotions from the casino for months and months and have been playing there with my own money. The agent replied saying I could now play for the ALL GAMES bonus and that my VIP level was now at Silver. Allowing me to claim promotions with lower wagering requirements and more games allowed. The second tier ranking for its loyal players.

Details of this promotion are here:
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The terms for the all games bonus were 12 x deposit+bonus on any game. But on Friday afternoon were changed to exclude several games and increase the wagering to 25x deposit+bonus, how they can still call legitimately or legally call that an ALL GAMES bonus im not sure?.

On thursday night, and before the T&C changes I attempted a 2000 deposit in one go but my bank declined it so I though I would claim the bonus in sections as would appear to be allowed since the bonus is 20% on all deposits to a maximum of 400 bonus. I deposited 500 into the casino, recieved a 100 bonus wagered and lost my deposit and bonus. I was playing Blackjack at 10/hand and wagered about 5000 when I bust out to zero. I deposited another 500, recieved the second 100 bonus, wagered over 7200 and withdrew 860 odd to the sportsbook. I attempted a further deposit with my card to the casino but again this was declined so I transferred from the sportsbook back into the casino. A pop up appeared giving me another 100 bonus, I wagered another 7200, withdrew and did the same again in order to claim the last 100 bonus of the 400 allowed. I then placed my withdrawal of a total of 1201 and yesterday was horrified to recieve this email:



I was angry at the allegation that I had not met the wagering requirements, I wagered what was required and more besides for each individual bonus claimed. In addition the casino software DOES NOT even physically allow you to withdraw funds if you have not met the required wagering requirements anyway and I could not understand why it was such a problem for me to have claimed the bonus in the way I did and so sent the following email:


I subsequently recieved the following back:




Now it seems they have revoked my promotion privelages on the grounds that I transferred to the sportsbook and back into the casino, but bear in mind this was 'Real cash' any funds transferred from the sportsbook to the casino had met any terms with regards to bonuses attached to it and any sensible person would be able to see that a transfer from the sportsbook is no different to physically depositing funds by card. Which I also would have done anyway in the first instance had my bank not declined the original 2000 deposit in one go. I have sent them a final email but coming here was the only other thing I could think of to do. I have at least requested that they change the clause from 'other transfers' to 'sportsbook transfers' so it is more clear and makes more sense.


This is the final email I sent:





I don't see what difference a transfer to and from the sportsbook makes and why it is frowned upon. It surely makes no difference to the casino whether funds came from the sportsbook or a fresh deposit from a card if all wager requirements have been met. It seems they think they can do what they like. 'other transfers' could mean anything. What about if you make a telephone deposit?, even a Neteller deposit could be interpreted not to be a 'Real cash' deposit. Or even a card deposit, a debit card does not hold real cash. It is an electronic 'transfer' from a debit/credit card to an electronic betting account. It is NOT real cash, so in my opinion that particular term cannot be considered an enforcible one.
 
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In addition, the fact that a person who is deputy manager in a casino which is accredited by CM and supposed to also be a trusted high street brand made this comment in particular horrifies me:


On this occasion we have used our discretion and have not voided your winnings, this is partly due to the fact that you have been a loyal players since joining and have had considerable losses previously.


That to me is a blatent admission that the casino's policy is that if a player claims a bonus then unless that player loses money then they have the RIGHT to confiscate your winnings. An absolute shambles. Seperately, I am considering writing to a tabloid newspaper about this. A bookmaker which is calling itself 'the Bonus King' is quite frankly nothing short of hypocritical and should not behave in this way. I don't believe Ladbrokes or William Hill would pull such a stunt. I do not know what sort of training BetFred's customer service team get but it is certainly not one of customer care and putting them first.
 
Though I havent played at Betfred for over a year my experiences with them have been generally good.

Over such a short period of 3 days, I dont think it is right that Betfred should change the terms and conditions in the middle of the promotion. Players could be caught unawares if they happened to deposit late on Friday or on Saturday without checking the site again. However, it was also explicit that bonuses will not be offered on transfers from sportsbook so I dont see the reason for being agitated here. The fact that the software allows this is a loophole and it seems you have exploited it to the fullest. If you think that a transfer should be deemed as a real cash deposit, then what would constitute a non-cash deposit?


It also seems that you are fully aware of the change in bonus terms. Though they are wrong in changing it mid-way, unless you did not know about it why did you not ask their support about it before effecting the transfers to gain the bonuses.


The discretion to allow you to withdraw winnings makes sense in that they have given you the benefit of the doubt relating to cash deposits and that they are clearly wrong in imposing fresh terms and conditions ie wagering requirements for a player who has been claiming the bonuses several times and it would leave a bad taste in the mouth if identical bonuses were subject to different WRs. It was also unintelligent of them to say to you that they were allowing your withdrawal because of your previous losses. However, I doubt whether they actually mean that unless you lose money they have the right to confiscate winnings. It's just that they do not wish to lose a loyal player.
 
chuchu59 said:
Though I havent played at Betfred for over a year my experiences with them have been generally good.

Over such a short period of 3 days, I dont think it is right that Betfred should change the terms and conditions in the middle of the promotion. Players could be caught unawares if they happened to deposit late on Friday or on Saturday without checking the site again. However, it was also explicit that bonuses will not be offered on transfers from sportsbook so I dont see the reason for being agitated here. The fact that the software allows this is a loophole and it seems you have exploited it to the fullest. If you think that a transfer should be deemed as a real cash deposit, then what would constitute a non-cash deposit?.
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Where is the mention that transfers from sportsbook to claim bonuses are explicity excluded?. There is no mention of this in the terms whatsoever so I am not sure where you have got this from. All they state in the general terms is "Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion". As I said previously, other transfers could be taken to mean absolutely anything. I'm not sure what a non-cash deposit would constitute. But a deposit by card into the sportsbook then transferring into the casino is still 'Real Cash', it does not become 'Pretend cash' just becasuse its been transferred. Indeed if I recieve a 'Bank Transfer' into my bank account is that not 'Real Cash' once it is in the account or a cheque that has cleared?. The term is loose and gives them the right to behave in any mannor they seem fit and needs to be updated to reflect what their definition of 'Real Cash' is.

There is no loophole at all, I also play at PaddyPower and you deposit into the sportsbook and then transfer into the casino in order to play games. This is absolutely normal behaviour and indeed this is standard practice for most casinos which are also a sportsbook whether claiming a bonus or not. I would like to hear a reason why it is to the casinos detriment to allow such a practice?. To clarify I did not deposit into the sportsbook, to the casino to claim the bonus then immediately withdraw and do the transfer again to stack up bonuses. I met the wager requirements of each bonus before initiating a new transfer to or from the casino. The casino software even AUTOMATICALLY transfers your funds back to the sportsbook before withdrawing back to Card, Neteller etc.



chuchu59 said:
It also seems that you are fully aware of the change in bonus terms. Though they are wrong in changing it mid-way, unless you did not know about it why did you not ask their support about it before effecting the transfers to gain the bonuses.
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You have missed the point here, I did the transfers, all wagering and made my withdrawal request BEFORE the term changes were even posted on the site and came into effect. This is reflected in the casino managers change in stance where he initially said I had not wagered enough then later dropped that argument and used the one about transferring to and from the sportsbook.


chuchu59 said:
The discretion to allow you to withdraw winnings makes sense in that they have given you the benefit of the doubt relating to cash deposits and that they are clearly wrong in imposing fresh terms and conditions ie wagering requirements for a player who has been claiming the bonuses several times and it would leave a bad taste in the mouth if identical bonuses were subject to different WRs. It was also unintelligent of them to say to you that they were allowing your withdrawal because of your previous losses. However, I doubt whether they actually mean that unless you lose money they have the right to confiscate winnings. It's just that they do not wish to lose a loyal player.
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But this is no way to treat a loyal player at all. Only on thursday they put me in the Silver VIP club to reward my loyalty and have now taken that away along with my ability to claim ANY bonus in the casino all in the short space of a day for claiming this one single promotion. I wonder If they would have revoked my privilages and kicked up a fuss for using funds transferred froim the sportsbook had I lost money?. I think NOT. The behaviour is diabolical.

The fact that they THOUGHT about confiscating winnings on these grounds is enough to tell people that they should think twice about playing at this casino. Had the comments come from customer service it would be a silly mistake to have said it but someone who is Deputy Manager????. It is shocking beyond belief and is probably the worst possible thing anyone could hear from an online casino since it reflects the ethics the business is being managed under to pretty much full extent.
 
Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly sure it does say somewhere in the general bonus terms and conditions, as the deputy manager also quoted to you, that to receive the bonus you have to make fresh deposits. I'll see if I can find it.

But more so than that, it usually says you have to make these deposits to your casino account. I've known of them in the past to refuse to give bonuses to people who deposited into the sportsbook (by mistake possibly) and then transferred it across. In other casinos, this can be a loophole. You were able to transfer x amount to your casino account, receive a bonus, then if you complete the WR you could transfer it to the sportsbook and back again. In my opinion, I don't really see why they don't like this. If you collect a bonus by swapping funds, the only money the casino can lose is the bonus. But by depositing, they incur fees, so the logistics behind it are something they probably won't tell us.

Not wanting to side with the casino (I know how quick they are to bonus ban) but if that is what's in the t and cs, then they can do whatever they like if you have breached them. If you took the bonus BEFORE the terms changed, then irrespective of when they were changed, your WR was the 12x (d+b). However, if they changed them and you then took another bonus, then the new wagering applies. Unfortunately, however much you may argue, saying 'I didn't see them' isn't going to hold any weight at all. Pleading ignorance doesn't usually get you very far :)

I'm curious though. You said you played 10 hands of blackjack. Part of your withdrawal is 2.01. That couldn't have come from blackjack. Is it possible you may have had bonus funds left in your account that carried over?
 

Yes they do have a term and it is shown here and this is the reason the manager is saying there is a problem.
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the ninth term down. But it states:

Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

As i've mentioned earlier, this could mean absolutely anything. A debit card deposit is a transfer from yout bank account to the casino. A Neteller transaction is a transfer from a web-wallet to the casino. The only thing a real cash deposit would be is physically going into a BetFred shop and giving the physical cash. The term is loose, and is not really enforcible they are just using it as an excuse to be awkward. As you have rightly pointed out there is no logical reason why transferring to and from sportsbook should be a problem unless it was solely to abuse the bonus in some way like stacking them but that clearly was not my intention at all



kmay87 said:
Not wanting to side with the casino (I know how quick they are to bonus ban) but if that is what's in the t and cs, then they can do whatever they like if you have breached them. If you took the bonus BEFORE the terms changed, then irrespective of when they were changed, your WR was the 12x (d+b). However, if they changed them and you then took another bonus, then the new wagering applies. Unfortunately, however much you may argue, saying 'I didn't see them' isn't going to hold any weight at all. Pleading ignorance doesn't usually get you very far :).

I'm curious though. You said you played 10 hands of blackjack. Part of your withdrawal is 2.01. That couldn't have come from blackjack. Is it possible you may have had bonus funds left in your account that carried over?
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I am aware about the T&C change and all my deposits, wagering and withdrawals were done before they changed. I said all this to the manager because he initially claimed I had withdrawn the bonus WITHOUT completing wagering requirements, after pointing this out he backed down on this argument and said it was the transferring that was the problem as you will see from my emails posted above.

The 2.01 balance was already in my account and either came from earlier slot play or comp points conversion im not sure. Blackjack was played at 10 per hand and no less.
 
The idea behind the 'real cash' term is simple. If you make one deposit, collect the bonus and complete the wagering and withdraw it to your sportsbook account, the money remains in the casino. If you then transfer it across to collect another bonus, the casino hasn't gained anything. But if you make another deposit - after withdrawing or busting out of the previous one - then there is every chance you may reverse that previous withdrawal.

If you completed the wagering before the terms changed, we can disregard that line of thought.

Basically, quite a number of terms in every casino are loose and open to debate. This allows them to infer something. Therefore, in this instance, you were told you breached the terms and conditions etc etc etc, and don't have a leg to stand on. You can argue all you want, but it never seems to get anywhere.

I notice the rep hasn't logged in for a few days now. I'd suggest you PM Ian, here. Us CM members often get treated better than other players :D
 
kmay87 said:
The idea behind the 'real cash' term is simple. If you make one deposit, collect the bonus and complete the wagering and withdraw it to your sportsbook account, the money remains in the casino. If you then transfer it across to collect another bonus, the casino hasn't gained anything. But if you make another deposit - after withdrawing or busting out of the previous one - then there is every chance you may reverse that previous withdrawal.

If you completed the wagering before the terms changed, we can disregard that line of thought.
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As I said, all terms were met, the withdrawal to sportsbook makes no difference. On transferring back I could have quite easily lost the amount I have transferred into the casino just like a fresh deposit and that would be the same amount lost to me as a player. If they had a problem with people transferring money the promotion should have been just 20% up to a maximum of 400, requiring a 2000 deposit in a single transaction. Not "All your deposits to the casino will recieve 20% bonus up to 400"

kmay87 said:
Basically, quite a number of terms in every casino are loose and open to debate. This allows them to infer something. Therefore, in this instance, you were told you breached the terms and conditions etc etc etc, and don't have a leg to stand on. You can argue all you want, but it never seems to get anywhere.

I notice the rep hasn't logged in for a few days now. I'd suggest you PM Ian, here. Us CM members often get treated better than other players :D
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I may not have a leg to stand on but it is my duty as a genuine casino player to inform others of such a shocking attitude. Reading around other internet forums it appears I have infact been lucky to come out with my winnings intact from this particular promotion. As other players are also having problems. Loose terms and excercising rights on them are the behaviour of rouge casinos, most of the big casinos make their terms clear and would not try to punnish a player on a minor technicality.

If you are fine playing at a casino where a manager clearly tells players things like:

On this occasion we have used our discretion and have not voided your winnings, this is partly due to the fact that you have been a loyal players since joining and have had considerable losses previously.

then please do continue, however a persons loyalty and losses should not be a factor in deciding whether they pay out or not which clearly is the policy of BetFred casino since it has been stated to me in writing by a manager.

I will contact the representive in the next couple of hours.
 
But if they required everyone to deposit 2000, they would see far less people opt to receive the bonus than just the 20% on every deposit.

I totally agree with you, how you've been treated isn't right. But I also like to consider the other side. A typical response by a casino could be 'you should have read the terms and conditions clearly'. Personally, I don't play there, for reasons other than yours, but the fact is that when you took the bonus, you should have understood the terms and conditions. They don't hide the fact that you need to make fresh deposits in order to receive the bonus, and they aren't the only casino to use such a system.

All that aside, while I can understand that you are annoyed at this, I would still be thankful to the manager for paying you. Had you been a new player, your deposits would have been returned and that would be the end of it. Search the forums here - you will see plenty of such instances.

When you PM Ian, flag him to this thread so he can comment on it for all of us.
 

I am also reading stories on other forums of people being paid who transferred into and out of the sportsbook in order to claim the full value of the bonus and have been paid immediately and not recieved such an email pointing figures of bonus abuse as I have. So yet again there is more proof that I have not been treated neither equally nor fairly regarding this issue. A couple have also contacted me and would like to post in this thread however they are unable to as they do not have enough reputation, I guess that is just unfortunate as these are the forum rules.

I am thankful for your posting kmay87 and appreciate it as it his helpful to have an opinion but I do hope other members will post also and give their opinion so we can get a balanced point of view here.

As has already been said, transferring between the sportsbook and casino has no negative effect for the casino, infact as you yourself said it would save them money on bank processing fees. I would like to hear a proper reason why this is the case. The only reason BetFred has given is

The reason that we have such a rule in place is to prevent players who transfer funds from chips to sports and vice versa for the sole purpose of receiving multiple bonuses. An actual deposit must be made for each individual bonus that is awarded.
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I have already told them my intention was not solely to recieve multiple bonuses which they know full well is the case. They should have a record of the declined card deposits on the account and this should be considered, but they are still being awkward and unreasonable on this issue.

In my eyes the term:

bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

Is not clear enough to tell you that you cannot transfer from the sportsbook. It does not clearly state what constitutes a transfer or their definition of a 'real cash deposit'. Only when you query it with them they give the reason above which leads me to believe it is there to trip people up. Why not change it to state:

bonuses will only be valid on deposits directly to your casino account transfers between sportsbook or poker wallets will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

my example is clear, to the point and cannot be argued with.
 

While I agree with you on possibly making the term clearer - it is still clear to me that "other transfers" excludes anything but a deposit. Moving cash from your sportsbetting account to your casino account is not a deposit - it is a transfer.

If other players have gotten away with it - that does not mean that you should be entitled to the same "privilege", so to speak.
 
spearmaster said:
While I agree with you on possibly making the term clearer - it is still clear to me that "other transfers" excludes anything but a deposit. Moving cash from your sportsbetting account to your casino account is not a deposit - it is a transfer.

If other players have gotten away with it - that does not mean that you should be entitled to the same "privilege", so to speak.
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I am not saying I should be privileged to get away with it, but the same sanctions should be appled to everyone. I bet there is not one single person who lost their deposits on this bonus and made transfers to claim it recieved an email like I did and were penalised.

I just find it harsh that in the first instance I was accused of 'not meeting wagering requirements' then when I refuted that claim they didn't mention it again and took a hard stance on the fact that I transferred from sportsbook to casino in order to claim a bonus and that was against the terms plus the fact that I was told the only reason I got my payout was due to considerable losses in the past and my loyalty. That is an absolutely outrageous and disgusting remark to make.

In the casino itself you click the deposit button and the first screen that is presented is a list of balances. The 'Cash Balance' being the sportsbook balance, along with buttons labelled Transfer Money/Chips and a second labelled 'Deposit Funds'. Now why is the Transfer button the first one presented if it causes such a problem?. What normal, average player would deposit from their card if they had funds in the 'Cash Balance' regardless of claiming a bonus or not it makes no difference.

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rpalmer83 said:
I am not saying I should be privileged to get away with it, but the same sanctions should be appled to everyone. I bet there is not one single person who lost their deposits on this bonus and made transfers to claim it recieved an email like I did and were penalised.
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I'm sure there are players that were also refused bonuses when transferring from sportsbook to casino. You have to admit that it is difficult to expect them to retroactively deduct funds from an account.

I don't think they are taking any exceptional action on your account, but as I am not privy to their player database or activity I certainly cannot say one way or the other.

I just find it harsh that in the first instance I was accused of 'not meeting wagering requirements' then when I refuted that claim they didn't mention it again and took a hard stance on the fact that I transferred from sportsbook to casino in order to claim a bonus and that was against the terms plus the fact that I was told the only reason I got my payout was due to considerable losses in the past and my loyalty. That is an absolutely outrageous and disgusting remark to make.
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Harsh it may be but the fact remains that a transfer is not a deposit. The fact that they made any exception for you - no matter how outrageous it seems - should be treated as a bonus (no pun intended).

In the casino itself you click the deposit button and the first screen that is presented is a list of balances. The 'Cash Balance' being the sportsbook balance, along with buttons labelled Transfer Money/Chips and a second labelled 'Deposit Funds'. Now why is the Transfer button the first one presented if it causes such a problem?. What normal, average player would deposit from their card if they had funds in the 'Cash Balance' regardless of claiming a bonus or not it makes no difference.
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The position of a button should not have any relevance to the ability to collect a bonus, I think that it is unreasonable to suggest otherwise.

As for "normal, average player" - I sympathize with you and understand where you're coming from but that is besides the point. You cannot expect to transfer money back and forth and expect to get bonuses, as innocent as it may seem.

Using your reasoning - I could hold say $100 balance in my sportsbook account, transfer it to my casino account, collect a 100% bonus, then transfer it back out again.

Repeat this process 100 times. Your balance is now 100+100, plus 200+200, plus 400+400... repeat another 97 times, I think you can see what the problem is.

This obviously discounts the fact that playthrough is required - but it still illustrates the point.

The only acceptable method of doing this is to withdraw your funds to your card, or Neteller or whatever... then redeposit later. In theory this can potentially be considered abusive, but you would otherwise be meeting the terms and conditions for receiving bonuses.

At the very least, you do need to understand Betfred's position here.
 

I disagree that your losses should have come into consideration, but I agree on the loyalty side. As I said earlier, if this happened to a new player, they would have refunded his deposit and that would have been the end of it. In your case, they saw you were a loyal player, and therefore decided to pay you. That is something you'd come to expect really.

Therefore, it should really be a matter of things considered on an individual basis. It makes it fair and more personal for each player if that is the case.

As Spearmaster said, what you did was transfer funds, and not deposit them. Agreed, a normal player would not make a fresh deposit if he already had funds sitting in another account. But he would if the terms and conditions of a bonus required him to do so. I think you probably interpreted the terms incorrectly, irrespective of how loose they may be.

Of course, it's only natural that you are feeling hard done by after been bonus banned for so long, only for this to happen. But as the casino are well within their rights to confiscate all winnings because of what you did, just think how you'd feel if they had of exercised this right.

But seriously, contact Ian. You don't know what strings he might be able to pull :D
 
spearmaster said:
Using your reasoning - I could hold say $100 balance in my sportsbook account, transfer it to my casino account, collect a 100% bonus, then transfer it back out again.

Repeat this process 100 times. Your balance is now 100+100, plus 200+200, plus 400+400... repeat another 97 times, I think you can see what the problem is.

This obviously discounts the fact that playthrough is required - but it still illustrates the point.
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It doesn't illustrate the point properly though, that would be blatent bonus abuse as you are attempting to double up the bonus each time. In your example your sole intention is to claim a bonus on top of a bonus. The fred software wouldn't physically allow you to do your example anyway as once a bonus is recieved the deposit and bonus are locked in until the WR is met!. This particular promotion gave bonuses in unlimited increments up to a maximum of 400. I deposited 500 from my card. Recieved 100 bonus lost the lot playing 10/hand BJ. (Fred's on T&C's state that any wager requirements are wiped out should the balance reach zero). I deposited a second 500 from my card recieved a second 100 bonus and wagered 7200 (12xD+B). I cashed in my balance to the sportsbook after all terms were met then transferred back to the casino to claim another bonus and did the same again. All terms were met so the cash in the sportsbook was MY CASH, and actual cash not the houses as I had fulfilled my obligations with regard to wagering.

spearmaster said:
The only acceptable method of doing this is to withdraw your funds to your card, or Neteller or whatever... then redeposit later. In theory this can potentially be considered abusive, but you would otherwise be meeting the terms and conditions for receiving bonuses.

At the very least, you do need to understand Betfred's position here.
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Again why would this be anymore acceptable than transferring to and from the sportsbook?, all it would mean is that Fred is going to get stung with higher fees from its merchant banks for all the deposits and withdrawals going off. It may sound bizzare but I have infact probably saved them money on these fees. I do understand their position but the term which they have regarding transfers is not an acceptable one IMO and should explicitly state that 'Sportsbook transfers' are not acceptable when claiming bonuses. It could be interpreted to mean anything in its present form, A debit card deposit is NOT a CASH deposit, nor is a Neteller or webwallet deposit.

All in all I guess im just annoyed at the fact that they have taken this route with me. They know that I have been a loyal player by their own admission stating that one of the reasons they didn't confiscate my winnings was because I am a 'loyal player and have lost significantly in the past' yet have chosen not only to punish me by removing bonus privelages but also sounding like they would not have hesitated to confiscate winnings had it not been for my past losses fills with me with loss of trust in them. I seriously doubt I will play there again, I am really not happy at all.

They are expecting me to rebuild up my loyalty in order to be welcome to any kind of benefit for playing at the casino in the future why would I even want to bother when this is an outfit that would take a persons winnings away from them for something as so simple as using a sportsbook to casino and visa versa transfer form.

I've said before, I deposited 2000 in a lump sum in the first instance but my bank declined it because it was a large deposit and unexpected so its not like I didn't try to deposit in the proper mannor in the first instance which they already know. They clearly aren't interested though as evidenced by the emails to and fro from the deputy manager.

I have PM'd the rep and will await a response. I'm not expecting anything to happen though but we shall see.
 


What a lot of rubbish.

You didn't comply with their terms, so they do indeed have the right to cancel your winnings.

They DIDN'T cancel your winnings, and you're still whining?

Of course every casino has the right to exercise discretion about whether to confiscate people's money. As far as I can tell, you're complaining than they didn't confiscate your money, even though they had the right to.

If that's the case, then send the winnings to me and it will have the same effect.

Betfred have behaved quite properly.

The rules about funds having to come from a deposit are crystal clear, I was aware of them from memory, and what you did, transferring the same money back and forwards and getting a bonus over and over was in breach of those conditions.

They haven't confiscated your money, they haven't used the word 'bonus abuse' (why are you going on about 'bonus abuse' when they've not used the word) they've simply said that you are excluded you from receiving further bonuses.

A textbook example of how a casino should behave.

1. Confiscated winnings? NO
2. Confiscated bonuses? NO
3. Confiscated deposits? NO
4. Informed you, in advance, that you are not eligible for more bonsues at this time? YES

Every casino has the absolute unfettered right to decide that in futureplayers are no longer eligible to receive bonuses/deposit, or anything else.

As long as they pay up for past promises, that's their right.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: to Betfred.
 

Yes a big thumbs up to BetFred for wrongly accusing a player of not completing the wagering requirements in the first instance. WHICH I DID DO!. For allowing players to transfer funds from the sportsbook to claim a bonus, which they do as evidenced by a pop-up appearing saying the bonus has been credited after the transfer has been made only to later then turn round and make out it is pretty much bonus abuse when the fact is that there is no detrimental effect to the casino or the whole operation of actually doing this, for having the barefaced cheek to use a players loss record to decide whether to pay a withdrawal or not and for having a term which is so loose it could mean anything!.

Maybe in future you should post something constructive or helpful rather than sarcasm like the other two posters who have taken the time to respond to this thread helpfully. Otherwise don't bother posting at all!

And Garnering Reputation points for nothing constructive being posted, merely sarcasm!. Love it!.


Anyway I do not want to keep posting as I feel like a troll now and this will be my last posting until I hear from the rep. Mainly, for the sake of other people falling into the same trap I would like to see BetFred update that term to state by definition that s Sportsbook to casino transfer is Forbidden when claiming a bonus as different people will interpret the term in its current form in different ways.

I have appologised to BetFred for the transfers I made from Sportsbook to Casino, I did not do it delliberately and they know this as evidenced by my declined card deposits in the first instance. The transfers were a genuine mistake due to the term not being clear, I was not conciously aware I was doing anything wrong. That said they have taken away my bonus privellages altogether as a punishment and want to see 8 - 12 weeks of play without promotions (despite the fact that I have played there for over half a year already without promotions or asking for them) before they will consider re-instating them.

Quite simply this says to me BetFred do not trust me or want to reward my loyalty which is their decision but if they will not overturn this decision then I will likely never play there again and will continue to inform others of my experience. With the amount of money I have spent with them over the last few years im sure if I gave the same to another casino they would not treat me in this way. A warning would have sufficed informing me of my error and should it happen again then sanctions would be applied.

I won't post again now until I hear from the representitive and again I thank those of you who have taken the time to respond constructively which is most of you.
 
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rpalmer83 said:
Yes a big thumbs up to BetFred for wrongly accusing a player of not completing the wagering requirements in the first instance. WHICH I DID DO!
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Seems like confusion resulting from you breaching their terms relating to transfers. Which as I've stated I was well aware of before you posted, and I'm sure other players are too.

For allowing players to transfer funds from the sportsbook to claim a bonus, which they do as evidenced by a pop-up appearing saying the bonus has been credited after the transfer has been made
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Pretty much all sites with a sportsbook and casino will allow you to transfer.

That the bonus is credited automatically, even though the terms clearly state you have to deposit new cash, is a result of the standardised Playtech software.

only to later then turn round and make out it is pretty much bonus abuse when the fact is that there is no detrimental effect to the casino or the whole operation of actually doing this, for having the barefaced cheek to use a players loss record to decide whether to pay a withdrawal or not and for having a term which is so loose it could mean anything!.
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I don't know where your getting the phrase 'bonus abuse' from. And the fact is they paid you, complaining that they might not have paid you is no complaint at all.

If you're confused about what

"Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion. "

means, you should have asked for clarification.

Maybe in future you should post something constructive or helpful rather than sarcasm like the other two posters who have taken the time to respond to this thread helpfully. Otherwise don't bother posting at all!

And Garnering Reputation points for nothing constructive being posted, merely sarcasm!. Love it!.
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I'm not taking part in a penis measuring competition here. I posted my views because I think you are out of line - you broke the rules, have been paid but are complaining in a rather excessive manner.

Quite simply this says to me BetFred do not trust me or want to reward my loyalty which is their decision but if they will not overturn this decision then I will likely never play there again and will continue to inform others of my experience. With the amount of money I have spent with them over the last few years im sure if I gave the same to another casino they would not treat me in this way.
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Well yes, that seems like a sensible response. I'm sure other casinos will indeed treat you better. You're right that the casino haven't been particularly sympathetic and their service has not been great, but my problem with your post is that you are claiming that you have done nothing wrong and they have no right to do what they did. You did, and they do.
 
There are a few of these Playtech operators who have a one wallet system who simply do not know how to set their offers up. A deposit is the same as a transfer, regardless of the terminology. The playtech system treats them the same and rightly so, if it's YOUR OWN MONEY, regardless of where it is being held, it should be treated as a deposit into the Casino. If the funds are tied into wagering then I see no problem with where the funds come from?

I'd just move your business elsewhere, betfred and Phil Lam don't seem to appreciate decent players!
 
Rhyzz said:
There are a few of these Playtech operators who have a one wallet system who simply do not know how to set their offers up. A deposit is the same as a transfer, regardless of the terminology. The playtech system treats them the same and rightly so, if it's YOUR OWN MONEY, regardless of where it is being held, it should be treated as a deposit into the Casino. If the funds are tied into wagering then I see no problem with where the funds come from?

I'd just move your business elsewhere, betfred and Phil Lam don't seem to appreciate decent players!
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Yes, it should, but the problem here is that the terms and conditions say that only real cash deposits are allowed. If transfers were acceptable, it would say transfers.

But as you said, there are other Playtech casinos out there, so it comes down to an individual choice. The casino has recognised his loyalty though. Perhaps he didn't get treated in the way he would have hoped, but moving to another casino means starting from scratch. The way I see it is the casino could have voided all winnings, but they chose not to, so he does need to show at least a small degree of appreciation that they didn't do this. Not saying that the overall service was right though.
 
I tried to contact him over a month ago but he has moved on. Probably his replacement monitors the rep account on here now.
 
I have asked on various other internet forums about other people who took this bonus over the last few days, some of the comments are:

I was only able to raise 1000 and wanted to claim this bonus, my weekly reload triggered first, I transferred out to void it as it does not allow the games I want to play. Transferred in for the giveaway bonus, wagered, transferred out had to top up my balance to make it up to 1000 again to claim the second part of the bonus, transferred in from sportsbook again and completed wagering. I have now been paid back to Moneybookers and have just recieved an email making me a Silver VIP!. I don't understand the problem with sportsbook transfers?
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I managed to withdraw without any problems, surprisingly. I only put 500 in and kept transferring to sportsbook to trigger as I assumed this was acceptable. Played 4 a hand, and withdrew 1180. Funds are already in Neteller and I've had no email chastising me.
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Now granted, yes I have broken a term and it is not my right to get away with breaking a term and I don't dispute that but how is it fair that one customer (me) has been accused of not wagering enough, being told their winnings could have been withheld because they used the sportsbook to transfer funds into the casino and have had their promotion rights revoked yet others get rewarded for this behaviour?.

I am sorry but this is neither fair nor acceptable and I am beginning to think there is more to this than meets the eye and they've chosen to do this to me for some other reason. I will see what the rep says but if they don't sort this out and accept that I made an honest mistake and appologise for this treatment after months and months of play then I will not only vote with my feet elsewhere. I will make sure people know that this casino does not treat is customers fairly.
 
kmay87 said:
Yes, it should, but the problem here is that the terms and conditions say that only real cash deposits are allowed. If transfers were acceptable, it would say transfers.

But as you said, there are other Playtech casinos out there, so it comes down to an individual choice. The casino has recognised his loyalty though. Perhaps he didn't get treated in the way he would have hoped, but moving to another casino means starting from scratch. The way I see it is the casino could have voided all winnings, but they chose not to, so he does need to show at least a small degree of appreciation that they didn't do this. Not saying that the overall service was right though.
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Of course, I am grateful to have my winnings but I don't agree that there is any recognition of loyalty shown whatsoever. I do not think that confiscating someones winnings simply for transferring money from the sportsbook should be acceptable behaviour under any circumstance by a high street bookmaker. Yes they have a term that dis-allows it but it is an obscure one and a pointless one and should either be removed or revised to reflect clearly and concisely what it actually means.

I may as well start again I feel. I have already given betfred over 6 months of non-bonus play and before that years of loyal play. 3 days ago they made me a silver VIP, two days ago they took VIP status and bonus privileges away completely. I'm sure if I gave Ladbrokes 3 months of what I've given BetFred I would get similar benefits there in no time. I just prefer some of the games in the software fred use which I know other casinos offer but I think fred is the only high street bookie using it and I know I can trust something on the high street...........well I thought I could.
 
You had said -- twice -- that you'd wait until you heard back from the rep. That sounded reasonable.

I said that if the rep couldn't help you then you should PAB since more than enough has been said about this in the forums without yet having pursued the PAB avenue.

Now you've come back, without having heard from the rep, and you're saying they're singling you out _personally_. You have no grounds for this accusation.

In order to prevent further spurious accusations I am going to close this thread until I hear from the OP: either the rep will respond and then we can take it from there or they won't and it'll be PAB time.

PS. My intention isn't to close this permanently, just until the appropriate steps have been followed. The temptation to post while things are in progress seems too much to resist.
 
Rhyzz said:
A deposit is the same as a transfer, regardless of the terminology.
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I respectfully disagree.

A transfer is movement of money internally - which is what has been done here.

A deposit is putting money into the system from an external source.

If you have a checking and a savings account, and you move money from savings to checking, it is a transfer. It is not a deposit. You are not adding money into the system - you are just rearranging it.
 
Hi,

I would like to introduce myself I am Phil the Deputy Casino Manager at Betfred. Thank you for all the feedback and comments.

I have taken the time to read all of the posts made in this thread and will try to address all of the points that have been made as best I can.

Firstly, I would like to take the time to apologise to RPalmer83 for any confusion caused with regards to being informed that he had not met wagering requirements for the bonus funds received as part of our 400 Giveaway promotion. When in fact the wagering requirements had been met, please accept our apologies for any confusion caused. Due to the inconvenience and confusion which may have been caused we have now credited your account with a 50.00 cash bonus. Please rest assured that customer satisfaction is of the utmost importance to us.

Secondly, I would just like to address the issue with regards to transferring funds from sports to chips. The below is stated on our website:

Bonuses will only be valid on real cash deposits other transfers will result in the voiding of any bonus and winnings at our discretion.

We are sorry to hear that the above statement could cause confusion for some players and we will be looking to have this re-worded so that it is clearer for our players in future. As we always welcome any type of feedback from our players as it is vital for us to know how are players are feeling and also listen to any suggestions that they may have, so that we can improve the level of service that we provide.

For genuine deposits that have been made via sports in error and then transferred to chips, we are a lot more lenient and it is very rare that we would actually void winnings under such circumstances.

Unfortunately we still need to enforce such a rule for occasions when players simply transfer funds from chips to sports after completing wagering and then transfer funds from sports to chips to claim new bonuses.

In essence if we allowed such activities to occur at the casino players could receive multiple bonuses via a single deposit.

In reference for us allowing the withdrawal in question to be processed due to the players past loyalty, we can appreciate the comments made. We could have a standardised procedure for such incidents but we prefer to review each matter on a case by case basis in the best interests of fairness and loyalty.

I hope that this has addressed all of the issues of concern and if you have any further issues please do not hesitate to contact me via the forum or by PM.

Kind Regards,

Phil.
 
kmay87 said:
Welcome, Phil, and thanks for your speedy response :thumbsup:

Will you be reinstating rpalmer83's ability to receive bonuses, based upon the genuine error he made?
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Hi,

After much consideration we will allow the player in question to receive bonus funds at Betfred Casino once again.

However if any further irregular transfer patterns are identified in the future, it could result in permanent exclusion from receiving bonus funds.

We hope that this has now clarified the whole situation but if you do have any further queries please do not hesitate to ask.

Thanks,

Phil.
 


Granted, but WHY is this so wrong, when you admit that WR were completed, and the money does indeed now belong to the player. There would be no argument at all (presumably) had the player deposited 500, took the bonus, met WR, and withdrew (right back to their ewallet, say); and THEN repeated the process 3 times with the SAME 500 - but with it being somehow OK because you had sent this 500 all the way back to the deposit method, rather than it having sat in the sportsbook purse. The entire industry is driven by this kind of money circulation, without it, as with the current banking crisis, the whole thing would grind to a halt. Further, for this relatively minor infringement, driven only by the bank's refusal to allow a full 2000 deposit, the player is summarily stripped of priviliges. At the same time, there are REAL "bonus abusers" bragging in forums that they broke this term, and repeatedly transferred back & forth, got paid, and did not even receive a gentle reprimand that this was a breach of the rules, and to not do it again. I suspect THIS was the chief reason why RPalmer83 gave you such grief over this. You have a rule, but it must apply to EVERYONE, and more importantly, must be SEEN to be so applied, or there will be further instances of players feeling they have been unfairly singled out for "punishment" whilst other "offenders" are bragging about getting off scot free with the same "crime".

It's an awful fuss over a mere 20% bonus though, and there is a high risk that variance will go against the dedicated "bonus bagger", which is surely what the casino is hoping for.

This rule (sportsbook transfers) has it's equivalent in stand alone casinos, where there is usually a term stating "reversed withdrawals do not count as deposits for promotional purposes". Again, somewhat illogical, since once validly withdrawn, the money has been won by the player, and by insisting the player lets it flow back to their card or ewallet and depositing it again, they make the process more expensive for themselves by having to pay the extra fees involved - something the player rarely sees since casinos cover these.

The maths does not stack up either. IF a player stops after the second 500 because they cannot use a transfer, they keep their winnings, BUT if transfers were allowed, the casino gets another go at winning it back. In this case, the third transfer could have gone the way of the first, and the casino would now have 1000 of the player's money. Provided the promotions are designed to at least slightly favour the casino in the long term, they can only gain from players using internal transfers to claim extra bonuses, since the long term will favour the house.

Many of these seemingly illogical rules seem to be down to a poor understanding of casino mathematics by management and promotions designers. They are afraid of what looks like "advantage play" even when it isn't so from a mathematical point of view. On the other hand, poor mathematical skills can lead to a botched promotion that DOES work to the advantage of players, and given some of the allegations that started flying (changing terms from 12x to 25x mid way for example), I wonder if at some point management became aware this particular promotion was +EV, and were on the look out for players who had taken short cuts that were against the terms and conditions, thus being harsher than they might otherwise have been on players who took the full 400 mostly through repeated internal transfers. It seems Betfred have a few "bonus baggers" who managed to get away with this. This should not be allowed to continue, as these players seem to be bragging about it, and this will only encourage others reading the boasts to believe this strategy is quite OK for the next time a similar promotion is run. This will lead to further "why me, and not them" type of complaints.

For me, looking in from the outside, I see a player who has lost a considerable sum, played for many months, yet all this time has been "bonus banned", whilst other less loyal players get all the bonuses. He gets a promo, and tries to win back a small portion of past losses, but breaches a term about transfers because his bank blocks deposits. He wins back a bit of past losses, but gets the book thrown at him by the casino, with yet another 12 week minimum bonus ban. The message this sends out is that you are somehow wrong if you win with a bonus, and that weeks of past loyal play without bonuses counts for very little. This reinforces my negative views of Playtech operators, and does nothing to make me want to play at any casinos offering Playtech software.

Loyal play I have made similar to RPalmer83, but at MGS powered casinos, has opened the door to far bigger bonus offers, and fairly generous terms in most cases. I have also been able to take part in all the ordinary promotions leading up to gaining VIP status.

Perhaps there is more to this particular case that either RPalmer83 and the Betfred rep have told us.

Perhaps RPalmer83 could clarify what lead to the initial Betfred bonus ban. If this too was related to making sportsbook to casino transfers instead of deposits, then he cannot claim ignorance of the rule now. Given that this was RPalmer83's first promotion since that earlier ban, it is likely his account was subject to a thorough audit at the time of final withdrawal, whereas the other braggers were able to fly their breaches in under the radar because they had managed to keep their heads down and not "abuse" bonuses straight after joining.
 
vinylweatherman said:
There would be no argument at all (presumably) had the player deposited 500, took the bonus, met WR, and withdrew (right back to their ewallet, say); and THEN repeated the process 3 times with the SAME 500 - but with it being somehow OK because you had sent this 500 all the way back to the deposit method, rather than it having sat in the sportsbook purse.
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Jeez...

Do you not understand that moving funds back and forth between sportsbook and casino accounts for the purposes of receiving a bonus is abuse?

If all the movement was one direction - sportsbook to casino - I could see the point.

The point I made is that the funds have LEFT the system - they are not within the control of the operator. And quite obviously, if someone were to withdraw say $500 to Neteller, and then immediately redeposit it, this would also be flagged as abuse.

People are going to have to use a little common sense here. The operator has clearly stated that "other transfers" are not allowed - it's not like this is some nefarious hidden term. They have the right to make this determination and frankly I think there's nothing wrong with it.

This discussion is turning totally senseless. The player has gotten what he wants from the casino - end of story. The operator has clearly outlined a scenario for bonus abuse, just as I did earlier in the thread - end of story.

If anyone thinks that what the casino did is unfair, explain, don't argue. Or post a sensible alternative solution.

Otherwise I am going to close this thread again - it was only opened to allow the operator to post their response.
 
First and formost I would like to thank Phil as BetFred Rep for the conduct and professionalism he has shown in dealing with this complaint. Whilst initially in my emails to him he did not seem to be willing to address my concerns he was pleasant and polite in all of his responses and that has to be commended and he has now responded here and addressed all my concerns appropriately.

Secondly the 50 gesture is very much appreciated but was not necessary under these circumstances. Nethertheless it does show that he understood the way I was feeling about this issue and the frustration which it has caused. So for this gesture I would like to say Thank you.

I'm sure that when BetFred looked into my account again they could see clearly that it was never my intention to abuse this promotion over the weekend and I didn't make transfers from the sportsbook to deliberately break the term which dis-allows transfers when claiming a bonus and will certainly NEVER EVER make such transfers again if claiming a bonus now that I know 100% that it is NOT ALLOWED. The term should definately be updated though to reflect that a sportsbook transfer by definition is not acceptable, as people have stated on other internet forums they were also confused by this term and thought it was acceptable and Phil has said he is going to look at this. If this is done then there are absolutely no grounds for confusion and a problem like this should never arise again in the future. I have seen many sportsbooks and casinos which do allow transfers between the two accounts regardless of claiming a bonus or not without any problem. It is upto the individual casino itself, in this case Betfred however whether it is allowed or not but the terms surrounding it need to be absolutely clear and to the point.

In some ways I want to also say that I probably overreacted slightly on this issue but this was mainly due to the fact that my vip loyalty privelages were removed entirely within 2 days of them being instated and my loss record was used in making the decision whether to payout or not. Thankfully Phil has said he has addressed these issues and re-instated these privelages.

Overall I would like to say that I am now satisfied and will continue to use BetFred for the forseable future and I'm happy to know that I am playing at a casino which does actually show a willingness to look after its customers and make them happy.
 
It's great to see this outcome - didn't I tell you about the advantages of being a member here :)

While we seem to get better treatment than other players, it also allows you to communicate to those who can actually get things done, rather than filling in a feedback form or chatting with cs. In your case, you outlined a problem that confused you, and possibly others, and the rep has taken it on board and is going to look at making it clearer.

A positive result all round.
 
vinylweatherman said:
Perhaps RPalmer83 could clarify what lead to the initial Betfred bonus ban. If this too was related to making sportsbook to casino transfers instead of deposits, then he cannot claim ignorance of the rule now. Given that this was RPalmer83's first promotion since that earlier ban, it is likely his account was subject to a thorough audit at the time of final withdrawal, whereas the other braggers were able to fly their breaches in under the radar because they had managed to keep their heads down and not "abuse" bonuses straight after joining.
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I signed up back in 2006 so cannot quite remember the exact reasons however I believe I played Blackjack and back then I was new to online gaming so was probably at around 3 per hand. I'm sure I complied with all the terms, I remember withdrawing and recieving an email a couple of days later saying they felt I manipulated the promotion and would no longer be welcome to any further ones unless I demonstrated regular non promotional play. I asked the reason why I wasn't welcome to promotions and a CS advisor told me "it's because you play Blackjack". This wasn't a problem for me though as I weren't really that interested in claiming benefits and I play for leisure rather than profits. It was definately nothing to do with transferring as I was new, and there was one bonus on offer.

I do expect my loyalty to be rewarded ocassionally though as online gaming is a competitive industry and it is only natural for a player to use a casino which treats its customers ocassionally.
 
Bonus abuse is clearly a problem in the industry and it does need to be controlled. Some do it better than others, but the whole transferring/depositing funds thing is strange. If the funds are your own, what's to stop you withdrawing them and making another deposit...the company loses even more through this process by paying processing fee's to the bank or payment operator. It's daft.

Anyway, I've never really been a big fan of many Playtech Casino's, whether it be because of the one wallet system or because they don't know how to set things up properly I don't know, but I tend to stick with just one or two when I fancy a change from MG...Betfred unfortunately isn't one of them, especially now the egaming side has been sold off...but then again maybe that's a plus side, at least I'm not funding a Man Utd fan now :)
 

There is no such thing as "bonus abuse", only breaches of bonus rules. It is all down to what's in the terms and conditions. In this case, this was not allowed specifically, so is a breach of terms. "Bonus abuse" is what casinos cry when no actual terms have been broken, but they believe a player has played to win, rather than "lose in an entertaining manner".

Mathematically, it makes no difference whether money moves back & forth within the system, or between the system and deposit method. From the point of view of the player, they have been offered so much bonus on so much deposit money. If the "system" rejects their attempt to make a big deposit, it is logical to expect some players to try smaller deposits.

In this case, the solution chosen was unwise. Presumably, if they had 2000 on the card, they could just as easily have deposited 4x 500 direct from the card, rather than doing the casino - sportsbook shuffle. At the end of the promotion, they could have withdrawn everything back to the card. This would have been within the rules, and would have shown the operator that there REALLY WAS 2000 available to put "at risk" with the casino in the first place.

Generally, the problem boils down to the casinos offering too high a ceiling on an offer, and when a player tries to take it they find their bank takes fright at the sheer size of the purchase, which is what happened in this case.

A small change in the rules as applied by the software could prevent this kind of manipulation, making only the FIRST deposit eligible for the bonus, OR, stating that once a withdrawal OR TRANSFER from the casino has been made, the promotion is no longer valid on further deposits. I have seen many Playtech casinos with a term stating that no bonus may be claimed whilst a withdrawal is pending, or within 7 days of a withdrawal having been made. It is a shortcoming in the casino software that permits this term to be breached in the first place. A stand alone Playtech casino would not be vulnerable, since such a manouver would be read as a reversal of a withdrawal, and not a new deposit.

What seems a problem here is the SELECTIVE application of the rules. Rules are there for EVERYBODY, and EVERYBODY who used this shuffling tactic breached the rules, and so should receive a stern email telling them this is NOT allowed, and they will have winnings removed if they try it on again. If there are any "advantage play" sites telling players to try this, THEY are wrong, and if they are also affiliates of the casino, they should lose their accounts for inciting these loophole exploitations.

MOST widescale abuse and fraud issues has been because a large number of players have been made aware of a "loophole" in some promotion or another, and a convenient step by step guide posted on some internet forum, or website, leads to a mass of new players hitting the casino all at once. Often, the loophole, once exposed as profitable, then leads to attempts at multiple account fraud. This can happen VERY quickly. One such site used to recommend "doing" an entire casino group over the weekend to give them less chance of catching on & locking accounts.
There are still many sites out there like this, and given that this was a Blackjack friendly bonus, I know where the "step by step guide" probably was for this one;)
 
vinylweatherman said:
There is no such thing as "bonus abuse", only breaches of bonus rules. It is all down to what's in the terms and conditions. In this case, this was not allowed specifically, so is a breach of terms. "Bonus abuse" is what casinos cry when no actual terms have been broken, but they believe a player has played to win, rather than "lose in an entertaining manner".
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I disagree.

What casinos cry when no terms have been broken is NOT bonus abuse, on that we agree.

Unintentionally breaching a rule is NOT bonus abuse either.

Deliberately breaching a rule IS bonus abuse.
 
spearmaster said:
I disagree.

What casinos cry when no terms have been broken is NOT bonus abuse, on that we agree.

Unintentionally breaching a rule is NOT bonus abuse either.

Deliberately breaching a rule IS bonus abuse.
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OK Fair enough. It's a disagreement on terminology, not fact. Bryan himself is the one who says that "bonus abuse" in it's own right does not exist UNLESS accompanied by a breach in the terms. The argument stems from casinos that deem "bonus abuse" to have taken place on the grounds of "we didn't like the way you played", even when such play was within the terms. This allows too wide a degree of freedom for casinos, and is unfair in the casino - player relationship.

This case is about an interpretation of terms, and whether the OP misunderstood, or WILFULLY tried to exploit an apparent loophole in how the software handled automated crediting of bonuses. Since the OP said that "other players" had posted of getting away with exploiting this loophole, it is more a case of why were they allowed to get away with it, rather than why the OP was not.

Playtech casinos have a reputation for assuming ALL British players are schemers, which is why they get little sympathy from me. I didn't post it, but I suspected that the OP was treated more harshly than those "other players" simply because he was from the UK, and preferred Blackjack.

In this case, the casino adhered to Casinomeister standards, and beyond, by paying out despite being able to demonstrate a specific breach of terms, and THEN issuing a bonus ban. The OP should realise that it is likely they have been flagged as a "schemer", and no amount of "loyal play without a bonus" is going to get them back on the promo list for a third attempt at "advantage play" - best move on to another casino, or develop a liking for other games.

I have some sympathy for the OP since I also saw nothing wrong in using the sportsbook "purse" as an "ewallet" for making "fresh deposits" into the casino part. This was simply because I had never come upon this central purse system before, because I had only played casinos. Now, I know that in general sportsbooks do NOT consider such internal transfers as true "fresh deposits".
I got caught by this at Ladbrokes - and a post on Casinomeister from a respected member who said this was OK with them, and following this, they updated their terms to make it very clear indeed what was considered a "fresh deposit" into the casino for promotional purposes. There is NO scope for argument with THEIR version.

This should be one for the "player 101" guides on how multi-faceted sites define "deposits" in terms of promotional purposes, since the casino software they use does tend to be vulnerable to this exploit. No doubt there ARE true "bonus abusers" out there who KNOW this is against the rules, but that a software "bug" gives them a good chance of getting away with it.
 
Sorry to raise this thread again but after the hassle I had with Betfred last time I am now having some more. I stopped playing with them in May because I was losing money and just couldn't afford to lose more. Ever since they have been sending me marketing material inviting me to claim a 'Silver' VIP monthly reload which I'll be honest I have been tempted to claim but resisted. Anyway on Friday I decided to play again and thought I may as well take advantage of the promotion on my deposit. Anyway I deposited an recieved no bonus and Live Chat told me there was a problem enabling it and I needed to email them. Emailed them and they sent me this:


This is despite recieving the latest email on Friday:


I would also like to clarify that the initial issue with bonuses when this thread was started was supposedly down to me transferring to and from the sportsbook. I understood fully that this wasn't allowed and didn't and have never done it since. Any deposits into the casino were fresh deposits from my debit card/Neteller. I complied fully with their rules.

Anyway I'm not going through swings and roundabouts again with them. I have emailed them and told them to close my account and take me off the mailing list. Sending people emails to trap people into making deposits and promising them something they can't have is false advertising and spamming. I have also lodged a complaint with the ASA on these grounds.

I will never ever deal with them again!.

I mean look at whats written at the bottom of the original email apologising that I can recieve no further bonuses. They're marketing is shocking.
 


You have a good case, but any ruling by the ASA will be a technicality, since the casino are not regulated within the UK. It may be an EMBARRASSMENT though (so don't be shy posting their answer), since they CLEARLY made you a PERSONAL offer, and THEN denied it ONLY when you had carried out your part of the deal by depositing.
They should have made it CLEAR from the start that you could not receive further bonuses on your account, AND they should have ensured you were removed from any mailing lists promoting bonuses. To target advertising at people who CANNOT take advantage of the offer is indeed "false/misleading advertising".
 
vinylweatherman said:
You have a good case, but any ruling by the ASA will be a technicality, since the casino are not regulated within the UK. It may be an EMBARRASSMENT though (so don't be shy posting their answer), since they CLEARLY made you a PERSONAL offer, and THEN denied it ONLY when you had carried out your part of the deal by depositing.
They should have made it CLEAR from the start that you could not receive further bonuses on your account, AND they should have ensured you were removed from any mailing lists promoting bonuses. To target advertising at people who CANNOT take advantage of the offer is indeed "false/misleading advertising".
Click to expand...

They market directly to the UK, People who are resident in the UK (like me) should not be subject to this kind of marketing because it is against the law in this country?, thats my understanding anyway. Like you say, it will be an embarrasment to them because their main operation is a UK one. It is wrong to promise things they are in reality unwilling to offer. I will post the ASA's response in full as soon as I have it.

I will have absolutely nothing to do with BetFred ever again after this. If they want the public to see my account 'behaviour' then I publicly give them permission to post my BetFred casino account history on these forums and let the public decide. I have nothing to hide. I cannot see what grounds they have to decline bonuses that I have been marketed to as being able to claim.

I do not want to hear 'sorry' or 'we made a mistake' 'we will review our marketing policy'. I have had enough of this company. There are plenty of others out there who understand and look after their customers much better. To me, having to complain about a companys practices once is once too often but to have to complain twice about what is effectively a similar thing is taking the P!.

They reserve the right to revoke a customers promotion entitlement, I accept that because its in their terms. However to market to them that they can claim a promotion and only inform them afterwards that they do not qualify is absolutely not acceptable.

Silver VIP that I am supposed to be?, thats credibility for you. I wouldn't consider myself a VIP of any description the treatment I've had from BetFred. Unless thier definition of VIP is a "Very Idiotic Person"

I know of no other casino that on a day to day basis practices this policy like they do, unless they are rogue.
 
Hi,

Thank you for brining this matter to my attention.

Firstly please accept our sincere apologies. You definitely should not have been targeted with a promotional offer if your account had been amended so that no bonuses would be awarded.

Please rest assured that this is in no way a common practise at Betfred. Customer satisfaction is of the utmost importance to us and we would not want to mislead customers in anyway. We do have steps in place to ensure that this does not happen but unfortunately on this occasion it does appear that an error occurred.

We fully acknowledge that this is not acceptable and would once again like to offer you our full apologies for any confusion and inconvenience caused. I have also contacted our marketing team to ensure that no further emails are sent to you in future.

Due to the fact that you were offered a bonus via email, we will honour what has been offered on this occasion if you wish. However from your recent comments we would fully respect and understand your decision if you decline to play at Betfred Casino and also refrain from taking advantage of the offer available.

We hope that this is satisfactory and would like to assure you that we are not a rogue casino. In fact we have actually been accredited by Casinomeister.

Kind Regards,

Phil
Betfred Casino
 

Unfortunately, this has gone way beyond a simple case of making a gesture to honour what was originally offered for me. When playing at an online casino, customers expect to be able to play in the casino and any incentive which is offered to them should be credited without hinderence and unless it is proven that a customer is deliberately making a mockery of a promotion then there shouldn't be any issue. I have not 'abused' any promotions offered in your casino in terms of ONLY depositing just to avail of bonus funds and when I have claimed a bonus I have met or exceeded the terms and conditions to the letter. You ammended the unclear term regarding 'sportsbook' transfers. I have NOT done any of these types of transfers since it was made clear. What is interesting is that I haven't played in the casino since May of this year, have always recieved the emails inviting me to claim VIP reloads which I simply haven't taken up because I did not have the money to play. There were even popups in the casino software advising me that I was eligible to claim the reload!.

Also what is the excuse for the marketing of a bonus directly on the end of the customer service email advising me that I am no longer allowed bonuses on the account?


In any case, I am sorry but I would like to respectfully decline your gesture of honouring the original bonus emailed and still would like my account closing in full. My relationship with your business has completely soured. This is due to this latest issue coupled with the last one which even though was settled amicably I was not completely satisfied at having to go to such drastic lengths to get my concerns listened to. The reality is I do not trust you, I have never been given the run around as much over something so trivial as a promotional incentive in my entire life. Other online gaming companies look after their customers much better and I won't be going near BetFred ever again and that includes the land based shops.

Quite frankly I find it disgusting for a company to have a slogan of 'The Bonus King' when It is quite clear you make it awkward for the customer to recieve a bonus of any kind.

And to clarify I did not intend to infer that BetFred was a 'Rogue' casino, just that the treatment I have recieved from you is the type of treatment I'd expect from a Rogue.
 
Just to let you all know, I contacted the GRA (Gibraltar Regulatory Authority) and the ASA (Advertising Standards Agency). Both of whom agreed BetFred were in the wrong here and in the ASA's case they gave me the oppertunity to make a full complaint where they would be formally investigated. I decided not to persue the complaints any further but asked them to keep my complaint on record incase of any similar situations croping up in the future for other customers.

The reason I did not take the complaint any further is because I have now closed my account with BetFred. It took them almost a week to act on my instructions to close the account. So impeccable customer service yet again!. No personal email was sent informing the account was closed, nor did they appologise any further or attempt to retain me as a customer. Evidently they are glad i've gone and believe me the feeling is more than mutual!.


The owner Fred Done claims

The 64-year-old marathon runner says that he has made it by offering customers a genuine alternative to his bigger rivals, William Hill and Ladbrokes.Theres only one person you have to please and that is the customer hes the guy we cant do without, Mr Done said. Ive always bent over backwards for the customer, but in some companies its an afterthought.
Click to expand...
:lolup:

They do not appreciate their customers at all in my experience. Twice I have been treated like im something they've stepped in on the pavement. I am sorry but you cannot hold a torch to Ladbrokes!, they do not throw wild accusations at their customers, revoke privileges for anything that can be pulled out of a hat nor do they send customers marketing material for promotions they are not allowed.

Anyway this is now the end of the matter, the 'resolved' tag at the beginning of the thread title is correct. I seriously encourage any other BetFred customers who've had a similar experience to mine to close their account and move to another casino. Bet365, Circus, William Hill for example all use the same software and thus will have the same games and im sure they will treat you MUCH better!.
 
I thought I remembered seeing this on here a few weeks ago.

I was also took off Betfred's bonus list with no circumstances I can think of, I was in fact emailed a bonus so deposited for it (It was a two day bonus), lost all of money (I've no problem with this if that's how the session goes) and was then swifty removed from their bonus list the following Monday. No bonus abuse, nothing.

I thought it was very underhand to offer players bonuses, have them lose money then remove them form their bonus lists.

I asked them to close my account and received an email from them with the following line in it...

Hello xxxx,

Thank you for contacting Betfred Casino.

We are sorry that you have chosen to close your BETFRED account. This has now been done as you requested.
Click to expand...

So if my account has been closed, why did then today receive an email for a free bet?

Seems like rpalmer83's not the only one that they "forgot" to remove from their promo emails.
 


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