forgotlogin vs BitStarz

[forgotlogin]

hello, firstly, ive been reading casinomeister for years, and know that most threads posted by relatively unknown community members are viewed with rightful skepticism in favour of the casinos on the whole.

But im posting this not in any effort to get back my funds (40,000 euros held including my deposits of 6500) because with their "cup of cocoa" license and cowboy operation its highly unlikely ill see a dime and i am writing it off as a bad decision to ever play there so my sole intention is to hopefully avoid the same happening to someone else.

so long story short, deposited a few times up to a total of 5000 euros (yes im a high roller) and ended up with a balance around 40,000 euros.
set RG limits to avoid playback and put a withdrawal request in.
provided all documents. LENGTHY list. including selfies and other such things.
eventually documents approved but then have to wait for game checks with provider. Ok no problem.
Next day i get the message that withdrawals have all been approved so I was pretty happy and waiting for them.
At this point I even deposited a further 1500 euros in expectation of receiving my winnings, but realised I couldnt even play as I had reached my RG limit. Oh well no big deal I thought.

The next day is when the problems started. an email for further documents. basically they asked for a selfie outside my homestreet, holding ID. Sent it within an hour even i thought it was a strange request. I had to ask support to unblock my account in order to upload this selfie. When logging in I noticed that all 10 withdrawals (4000 euros each) had been cancelled and returned to account.
anyway my account was relocked straight away after uploading the selfie.
and then entered a whole week of
ignored emails and constantly being fobbed off on live chat before totay I receive finally an email:
****
Hey,

A decision has been made to close your account and confiscate the winnings in line with our terms of use and the penalties outlined in section 8.1

Best regards,

Mike
Support Hero
****

On their website, this section 8.1 outlines:
If You breach any provision of these T&C or Bitstarz.com has a reasonable ground to suspect that You have breached them, Bitstarz.com reserves the right not to open, suspend, close Your Member Account, withhold payment of your winnings and apply such funds on account of any damages due by You.


So it seems they can do whatever they want, if they "suspect" you broke some T&Cs.
By the way, i NEVER took any bonuses and i never did anything remotely out of line.

finally I want to point out the only reason I signed up here was the highly prominent approval given to it by askgamblers. and also a recent claim they paid 1.35million out within 10 minutes (something I highly doubt is true given my experience)

I also should have had my alarm bells ringing due to it being a primarily bitcoin casino (yes there surely are legitimate users of this stuff but it certainly has an air of criminality to it) . for the record i deposited using real euros from my bank card.

I am out of pocket over 6500 euros i deposits and 33000 in winnings.

conclusion:stick to reputable casinos with proper licensing like casumo, leovegas, and so on.

also its very clear askgamblers are taking kickbacks from promoting this scam joint. i applaud bryan for only promoting sites he can vouch for

 

[homerbert]

Hello !

Please PM me your registered email in casino and I'll have a look for you.

Also, I do not think you can do such titles for threads.

Br,

V.

 

[forgotlogin]

I have pmed my username, however *if* this magically gets resolved due to publicizing of my issue, I still would be totally unsatisfied unless a believable apology was also stated, explaining why bitstarz has acted in this manner.

 

[Sasukdcf]

To be fair to @forgotlogin I feel he is entitled to give the thread that title going on the info given, if any of it is wrong then maybe not but currently i have to say i feel his pain..... if you do the right thing, like my VIP host did today for me then im sure he will set the record straight.

 

[homerbert]

I have pmed my username, however *if* this magically gets resolved due to publicizing of my issue, I still would be totally unsatisfied unless a believable apology was also stated, explaining why bitstarz has acted in this manner.

Yep, I've received it, and please allow me some time to discuss and check with their team.

What I want to admit, that recently they have HUGE WIN (over 1kk) which is advertised on main page. And this win was paid within hour or two (in crypto). It's defo not that operator who will confiscate something just for money, believe me. (and to be completely honest with you, I never expected that speed on SUCH WD).

But like I said, I'll check and provide you feedback (most likely tomorrow).

Br,

V.

 

[homerbert]

Hello @forgotlogin

I've reviewed your account and information casino team sent to me. I think I'm agree with their decision, and I suggest you to use PAB:

Submit Your Online Casino Complaint - Casinomeister

Br,

V.

 

[forgotlogin]

it is reassuring homebert, that you "think" you agree with the decision. couldnt possibly be because you have no choice being that youre involved with the company?
if you have any information to refute the fact ive deposited and won fairly and been denied my rightful winnings, post it, please do.

 

[dunover]

it is reassuring homebert, that you "think" you agree with the decision. couldnt possibly be because you have no choice being that youre involved with the company?
if you have any information to refute the fact ive deposited and won fairly and been denied my rightful winnings, post it, please do.

Nope. reps or casinos will NOT post sensitive info in public. There are two sides to every story. If you feel the decision is unfair, use the PAB as suggested. This will be done in private, and when a decision is reached the outcome can be posted on here.

 

[homerbert]

More than this, I've must admit that user offered me to provide him what info casino knows about him, and for that he will delete this thread. He tried it two times.

We (and I'm personally) have ZERO tolerance to any fraud.

Like I said - you can easily PAB if you think you did nothing wrong.

BR,

V.

 

[dunover]

I have removed the word WARNING from the thread title - official warnings are posted by MaxD and this isn't one of them.

I have also shortened the long and cumbersome thread title to reflect exactly what it is, as posted - a dispute regarding confiscated winnings at Bitstarz.

Thanks!

 

[forgotlogin]

yes, i offered to delete the thread if he can share this information he supposedly agrees with
ive lost money, the only fraud here is that perpetrated by bitstarz

anyway, i posted this just to warn others, not going to let this stress me out even more

 

[trancemonkey]

More than this, I've must admit that user offered me to provide him what info casino knows about him, and for that he will delete this thread. He tried it two times.

We (and I'm personally) have ZERO tolerance to any fraud.

Like I said - you can easily PAB if you think you did nothing wrong.

BR,

V.

Something smells fishy if the user is trying that... I know I would never try that if I had a genuine claim.

 

[homerbert]

Something smells fishy if the user is trying that... I know I would never try that if I had a genuine claim.

Hey mate!

Lol, sure! And even his next reply smells fishy. If you have problem - PAB. If you just want to blackmail casino - this is not right place for this.

 

[dunover]

yes, i offered to delete the thread if he can share this information he supposedly agrees with
ive lost money, the only fraud here is that perpetrated by bitstarz

anyway, i posted this just to warn others, not going to let this stress me out even more

To address your second point, regarding Askg*mblers - they don't take 'kickbacks' in quite the way you mean. They are an affiliate site and earn fixed payments and/or commission for any casino they promote and recruit players for. This will apply to all of their promoted sites, not just Bitstarz.

As for some of the sites they promote, or have promoted, no comment.

 

[forgotlogin]

its like sharks waiting to pounce on a user to pronounce them in the wrong in favour of the casinos every time here.

homerbert, suggesting im trying to blackmail the casino (to pay what im owed) is nonsense.
this is a small amount of money to me, i am literally only interested in sharing the truth about a very dodgy operation.

 

[dunover]

its like sharks waiting to pounce on a user to pronounce them in the wrong in favour of the casinos every time here.

homerbert, suggesting im trying to blackmail the casino (to pay what im owed) is nonsense.
this is a small amount of money to me, i am literally only interested in sharing the truth about a very dodgy operation.

Sounds like upon checking your account that something has been flagged - multi-accounting, fake ID or details, collusion, source of funds? Who knows? - but something has. If you think that any casino will reveal their method of identifying those issues so they can be avoided by players in future, you're mistaken.

 

[forgotlogin]

thanks dunover for a real response
well in that case i see a pab is the only option as you mentioned
but whats to stop them simply providing whatever lies and wrong information to the arbitrator?
the casinos hold all the cards.

 

[homerbert]

thanks dunover for a real response
well in that case i see a pab is the only option as you mentioned
but whats to stop them simply providing whatever lies and wrong information to the arbitrator?
the casinos hold all the cards.

Thanks! Please use PAB and let's start from there. CM will be provided full information about your account, but you will not be able to get any piece of this information. We will just prove that your breached casino terms and conditions.

Br,

V.

 

[dunover]

thanks dunover for a real response
well in that case i see a pab is the only option as you mentioned
but whats to stop them simply providing whatever lies and wrong information to the arbitrator?
the casinos hold all the cards.

As advised - use the PAB service. You cannot get anywhere by posting on this thread any more. MaxD is the official arbitrator and can see information provided by both parties and make a decision based on this. This is totally unbiased and judged on its merits regardless of which casino is involved.

 

[Sasukdcf]

It will be interesting to see the outcome of this

Hopefully we will get to hear what happened and whether the terms breached were intentional or not....

Depending what they were tho is there not an argument to refund his deposits if not his winnings if there is some thing the casino are not happy with? Just playing devils advocate here ?

 

[xexe]

Thanks! Please use PAB and let's start from there. CM will be provided full information about your account, but you will not be able to get any piece of this information. We will just prove that your breached casino terms and conditions.

Br,

V.

Wait, am I misinterpreting this? Like you're going to give CM the info of what the breach was, but not the actual person in question who was (allegedly) a victim of fraud? I'm guessing I am misinterpreting you but if not, what would be the reason to refuse to share the information with the victim other than to avoid him being able to defend himself in order to prove himself innocent? I can't think of another motive not to tell him.

 

[dunover]

Wait, am I misinterpreting this? Like you're going to give CM the info of what the breach was, but not the actual person in question who was (allegedly) a victim of fraud? I'm guessing I am misinterpreting you but if not, what would be the reason to refuse to share the information with the victim other than to avoid him being able to defend himself in order to prove himself innocent? I can't think of another motive not to tell him.

It's the 'arbitration paradox' whereby some information COULD be useful to ne'er do wells and as a result some disputes aren't really about money but the complainant wanting to know how they've been caught out, if they have been a bit naughty. Not saying this is the case here, but some information can be sensitive hence an arbitrator sees it, makes a decision based upon it but the complainant doesn't.

If you're referring to a reason, rather than information, for example overbetting on a bonus or something then of course you'd expect the complainant to be told why and shown when they did this.
It's really a matter for the PAB parties now anyway, as we can only speculate as to the events here.

 

[Jono777]

This is like waiting for the next episode of a decent drama or thriller...edge of your seat stuff for sure

 

[zreb]

It's the 'arbitration paradox' whereby some information COULD be useful to ne'er do wells and as a result some disputes aren't really about money but the complainant wanting to know how they've been caught out, if they have been a bit naughty. Not saying this is the case here, but some information can be sensitive hence an arbitrator sees it, makes a decision based upon it but the complainant doesn't.

If you're referring to a reason, rather than information, for example overbetting on a bonus or something then of course you'd expect the complainant to be told why and shown when they did this.
It's really a matter for the PAB parties now anyway, as we can only speculate as to the events here.

I get what you're saying, but I feel kind of uneasy about it as a general principle. Imagine if you had a court of law, and one side was allowed to present their arguments to the judge or jury without the other side even knowing what the information was, with no ability to either question the accuracy of that information or provide a reasonable explanation?

Casinos themselves are not always completely honest, and even if they are, can make mistakes. Even when there are no blatant lies, people can fudge some details out of either sloppiness or lacking honesty - sometimes those minor details end up being important. It seems like it's asking a lot out of the arbitrator to determine both the accuracy of the information they've been provided and that there's no reasonable explanation for it - it seems like in many cases determining whether the information was accurate would not be possible at all, unless one side is simply given the benefit of the doubt.

Do you have examples of the types of things that may fall under the category, and the limits of it? Specific examples may not be possible to provide because you don't want to give fraudsters information on how not to get caught, but just the general nature of the types of information we're talking about.

 

[Gaz237]

I get what you're saying, but I feel kind of uneasy about it as a general principle. Imagine if you had a court of law, and one side was allowed to present their arguments to the judge or jury without the other side even knowing what the information was, with no ability to either question the accuracy of that information or provide a reasonable explanation?

Casinos themselves are not always completely honest, and even if they are, can make mistakes. Even when there are no blatant lies, people can fudge some details out of either sloppiness or lacking honesty - sometimes those minor details end up being important. It seems like it's asking a lot out of the arbitrator to determine both the accuracy of the information they've been provided and that there's no reasonable explanation for it - it seems like in many cases determining whether the information was accurate would not be possible at all, unless one side is simply given the benefit of the doubt.

Do you have examples of the types of things that may fall under the category, and the limits of it? Specific examples may not be possible to provide because you don't want to give fraudsters information on how not to get caught, but just the general nature of the types of information we're talking about.

But it would be ok if your lawyer was able to view the evidence.

You would have to trust him.

In this case Casinomeister (Max, Bryan) are the lawyer, so the OP needs to trust them.

It would be pretty daft for a casino to post on a public forum, how someone has committed attempted fraud at their Casino.

 

[dunover]

I get what you're saying, but I feel kind of uneasy about it as a general principle. Imagine if you had a court of law, and one side was allowed to present their arguments to the judge or jury without the other side even knowing what the information was, with no ability to either question the accuracy of that information or provide a reasonable explanation?

Casinos themselves are not always completely honest, and even if they are, can make mistakes. Even when there are no blatant lies, people can fudge some details out of either sloppiness or lacking honesty - sometimes those minor details end up being important. It seems like it's asking a lot out of the arbitrator to determine both the accuracy of the information they've been provided and that there's no reasonable explanation for it - it seems like in many cases determining whether the information was accurate would not be possible at all, unless one side is simply given the benefit of the doubt.

Do you have examples of the types of things that may fall under the category, and the limits of it? Specific examples may not be possible to provide because you don't want to give fraudsters information on how not to get caught, but just the general nature of the types of information we're talking about.

Yes, it's a question of disclosure and the burden of proof is nowhere near as high as in a criminal court.
MaxD has done multitudes of PABs in his time and knows if he's being fed BS by either party.
Therefore he can liaise between them, giving the complainant the nature of the information held without being too expansive - I'm sure it's a fine line to tread and I'm glad we have an expert here. Remember he will have seen the type of information before and unlike us will know how it's obtained or identified behind the scenes and therefore the veracity of it. I haven't a clue why this case has occurred specifically but at least there's a line of communication available via Homerbert and MaxD and it's in neither of their interests to be anything other than straight.

 

[xexe]

But it would be ok if your lawyer was able to view the evidence.

You would have to trust him.

In this case Casinomeister (Max, Bryan) are the lawyer, so the OP needs to trust them.

It would be pretty daft for a casino to post on a public forum, how someone has committed attempted fraud at their Casino.

No, that wouldn't make any difference so long as your lawyer wont relay the information to you. You still can't defend yourself against the accusations, and neither can the lawyer if he doesn't get to ask you if the accusations are true. The casino also has a financial incentive in lying here; €40,000.

And nobody is asking them to post it on a public forum, the OP just wants the information himself. He even offered to delete the thread if they told him why they took his money. Perhaps he would accept the loss if they just told him what he did wrong? Because right now, it's just "we took your 40 grand and we wont tell you why. We're going to tell CM why, but you wont know what we say so you can't disprove it if we lie (which we have an incentive to do).

I haven't been here very long so perhaps I'm just too much of a skeptic/cynic, but the fact that they wont under any circumstances tell the victim why they (allegedly) stole all his money just raises red flags to me. Let's say he is a never-do-well, I still don't see why they couldn't just tell him what he did wrong, without revealing how they found out. The process just sounds very Judge Judy-esque to a newbie like me, except the victim doesn't even get to hear what he's being accused of.

 

[thr0b]

But what you're asking is for them to tell him how he got caught out.

No sane business is going to do that.

If you catch someone money laundering (and I'm not saying that's what's happened here, it's just an example), you cannot by law (here) tell the person concerned your suspicions. You must complete the transaction, otherwise it's classed as tipping off. An investigation then takes place, and if a crime has been committed, laws take over.

 

[mack341]

No, that wouldn't make any difference so long as your lawyer wont relay the information to you. You still can't defend yourself against the accusations, and neither can the lawyer if he doesn't get to ask you if the accusations are true. The casino also has a financial incentive in lying here; €40,000.

And nobody is asking them to post it on a public forum, the OP just wants the information himself. He even offered to delete the thread if they told him why they took his money. Perhaps he would accept the loss if they just told him what he did wrong? Because right now, it's just "we took your 40 grand and we wont tell you why. We're going to tell CM why, but you wont know what we say so you can't disprove it if we lie (which we have an incentive to do).

I haven't been here very long so perhaps I'm just too much of a skeptic/cynic, but the fact that they wont under any circumstances tell the victim why they (allegedly) stole all his money just raises red flags to me. Let's say he is a never-do-well, I still don't see why they couldn't just tell him what he did wrong, without revealing how they found out. The process just sounds very Judge Judy-esque to a newbie like me, except the victim doesn't even get to hear what he's being accused of.

I think this is right if a casino claim a term or condition has been broken it is only fair that the customer is informed which term or condition was broken, not how they discovered the breach.

edit: just to add from re reading the opening post, the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street and he claimed never to have taken a bonus, so that rules out bonus abuse???

 

[Gaz237]

I think this is right if a casino claim a term or condition has been broken it is only fair that the customer is informed which term or condition was broken, not how they discovered the breach.

edit: just to add from re reading the opening post, the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street and he claimed never to have taken a bonus, so that rules out bonus abuse???

The Rep mentioned fraud, which trumps any term or condition.

 

[mack341]

The Rep mentioned fraud, which trumps any term or condition.

will be interesting to see what happens next, I keep an open mind on these matters, as a player if I'd had $40,000 confiscated I'd like to know why, if it's fraud the casino can for example still say 'we believe you've committed identity fraud' they don't have to say how it was detected. money laundering or using stolen funds' type of fraud should be a matter for the police.

 

[colinsunderland]

will be interesting to see what happens next, I keep an open mind on these matters, as a player if I'd had $40,000 confiscated I'd like to know why, if it's fraud the casino can for example still say 'we believe you've committed identity fraud' they don't have to say how it was detected. money laundering or using stolen funds' type of fraud should be a matter for the police.

You could take them to court then they would have to supply the information. For 40k, if I was sure I was right, I would!

 

[Sasukdcf]

It’s a hard one for all concerned including the adjudicator ( I think someone said it was max)

If the outcome is not favourable to the OP then I’m guessing...

Max won’t be able to say anything
The casino won’t be able to say anything
The OP will be none the wiser
We will be none the wiser
And everyone sits there wondering what it was...

My thoughts on it are: the “ allegations” are something of a sinister nature because the rep ( and this is not by any means meant as a dig at them) but seemed quite sure of themselves and considering the amounts involved and the “ Initial accusation “ posted against the casino, this didn’t ring true.

That said on the flip side I don’t think the OP would have posted and argued so vehemently if they had done something obviously wrong or fraudulent...
and if it was a bonus or T and C breach then I don’t think it would be so “ cloak and dagger “

So to surmise...

Not a fucking scooby what’s going on but it would be good for all concerned if there was a generic non specific way that someone could give us an incling as to what’s happened to cause the issue! Cos we are all nosey

 

[mack341]

You could take them to court then they would have to supply the information. For 40k, if I was sure I was right, I would!

I think you'd have to, but as this casino is licensed out of curacao not sure how you would go about that, [bitcoin is another part of this case that rings alarm bells for me.] would confiscation of winnings and deposits etc.. happen under ukgc governance?

 

[Mr Wild]

I think you'd have to, but as this casino is licensed out of curacao not sure how you would go about that, [bitcoin is another part of this case that rings alarm bells for me.] would confiscation of winnings and deposits etc.. happen under ukgc governance?

It would if its a breach in terms, fraud or AML. But customer could still take them to court and win there if the win is legit.

 

[Harry_BKK]

To all doubters and OP's right defenders to know why:

FYI, Vitali has clearly posted that the OP asked him twice to reveal the details how they reached their decision and he offered to have this thread deleted (which Bryan will not do). Plus, Vitali has been long enough in this industry to know what he sees. Remember he also helped to get cases solved in players' favour.

And last but not least, OP has still not filed a PAB. If someone is so adamant that he is in the right, why wait days to file a simple PAB?

I am 99.99% sure he won't because he knows he's been caught and doing a PAB will just make it clearer.

EDIT: He was online just a few hours ago and no PAB filed.

 

[mack341]

It would if its a breach in terms, fraud or AML. But customer could still take them to court and win there if the win is legit.

so if a person has say £2,000 deposited in their balance and £500 winnings, but they've breached one of the terms, the casino would confiscate the balance and close the account?

edit: I could understand in a case of fraud or money laundering the casino would confiscate deposits in order to pass onto the police/ukgc as its possibly proceeds of crime.

 

[TheAddict]

the kyc required including a selfie taken outside his home street

hmm, reminds me of my town. some bright sparks amongst the council decided to come upwith a project, to attach a picture to a lampost on some streets here, sort of a way to show the different varieties of characters, or freaks, who live in the town, picking one person walking through the street while they waited in a vehicle to capture someone uniquely different to display.
Whatever idiots did this while waiting for a victim, decided it would be a good idea to take a pic of me walking towards them in my street, with an unkept beard, bad hair day, and during the only 30 minutes of my entire bloody life I've ever also happened to be wearing a bloody pink jumper (borrowed from someone!) . bastards!

 

[homerbert]

Hey people!

Sorry, maybe I was not clear with my statements (I have that, if I understand something, I always think everyone understand it too).

1) This is not a question of bonuses and regular confiscations reasons. It's more about fraud and crime, therefore we do not want to post any info in public.

2) When we confiscate money for breaching bonus terms, for creating many accounts etc etc - we always inform customer. But in some cases, as Harry explained here, we simply can't share some information and some conclusions, because it can cause damage to us.

3) As was told, customer can feel free to PAB, or contact Curacao, or submit complaint anywhere he wants.

4) Re some kind of verification where you asked selfie outside street. It's strange one, I agree, but believe me - it's asked for about 0.001% player database in pretty much hard and really suspicious cases. No one in clear mind will make such request for average player, no worries pls.

Wish you all great start of the day!

Br,

V.

 

[Sasukdcf]

Just an aside

Can the OP not trigger a subject access request and therefore gain all info the casino has on him anyway ?

I find this very interesting and although I may be being naive I wonder if OPs message to get some information in exchange for remove thread was to attempt to get some information to move it on... he didn’t promise not to open another thread afterwards !?

 

[xexe]

But what you're asking is for them to tell him how he got caught out.

No sane business is going to do that.

No, the complete opposite actually, I think you misread my comment

Let's say he is a never-do-well, I still don't see why they couldn't just tell him what he did wrong, without revealing how they found out.

 

[Harry_BKK]

No, the complete opposite actually, I think you misread my comment

You simply don't give fraudster any details whatsoever as they will just refine their tactics and means to do better next time.

 

[dunover]

For the record, one of the big problems with the UKGC's ADR system was or is that dodgy players could request sensitive information and make spurious complaints in order to gain intelligence on methods used to identify their actions.

 

[xexe]

You simply don't give fraudster any details whatsoever as they will just refine their tactics and means to do better next time.

I get what you're saying, but it just makes no sense as long as we're just talking about what crime he commit without going into any further detail. He's not going to gain any new information if he really did do it. If he commit a crime, it's not like he did it by accident, you with me?

Everybody here just seems to take for granted that the casino is telling the truth. Entertain the thought for 1 second, what if the casino is lying here in an attempt to pocket 40 grand? If you were in the victim's shoes here and you know 100% you didn't commit fraud, how would you feel if the abusive casino just referred to a rule that says they can ban you for any reason? And then agreeing to tell others what crimes you commit so that you can't defend yourself, when you know for certain that you're not a criminal? You'd feel powerless.

And I don't doubt the expertise of the PAB-experts, but they can't make a neutral judgement with only one side of the story.

 

[colinsunderland]

Just an aside

Can the OP not trigger a subject access request and therefore gain all info the casino has on him anyway ?

I find this very interesting and although I may be being naive I wonder if OPs message to get some information in exchange for remove thread was to attempt to get some information to move it on... he didn’t promise not to open another thread afterwards !?

A SAR wouldn't cover this

 

[forgotlogin]

to update this thread, and judging by homerberts comments, the ONLY thing i can conclude is they are taking my past history into consideration for a reason not to pay.
i have a fraud conviction which was over 7 years ago but still in public domain.
homerbert, is it regarding this? because we both know i have not done anything wrong regarding my deposits, play or use of the bitstarz website.

regarding pab, still hesitant to file as i dont trust the information bitstarz would provide, and the process seems biased to me

 

[Harry_BKK]

I get what you're saying, but it just makes no sense as long as we're just talking about what crime he commit without going into any further detail. He's not going to gain any new information if he really did do it. If he commit a crime, it's not like he did it by accident, you with me?

Everybody here just seems to take for granted that the casino is telling the truth. Entertain the thought for 1 second, what if the casino is lying here in an attempt to pocket 40 grand? If you were in the victim's shoes here and you know 100% you didn't commit fraud, how would you feel if the abusive casino just referred to a rule that says they can ban you for any reason? And then agreeing to tell others what crimes you commit so that you can't defend yourself, when you know for certain that you're not a criminal? You'd feel powerless.

And I don't doubt the expertise of the PAB-experts, but they can't make a neutral judgement with only one side of the story.

FTR, PAB means that Max will listen to both sides. But if a casino can provide clear information, proof, protocols etc that clearly point to what happened, there isn't much one can do.

No, we are not taking anything for granted. In general, we side with an OP first until we see how the story goes, after all everyone here is a player.

But you always seem very biased against a casino. Do you know how much fraud or attempted fraud happens at online casinos? Casinos have separate departments just for fraud detection and it still happens.

And no, I would not give a dime of details/information in a public forum or to the alleged fraudster. No way as it could give away what methods I use to detect the attempted fraud.

 

[homerbert]

to update this thread, and judging by homerberts comments, the ONLY thing i can conclude is they are taking my past history into consideration for a reason not to pay.
i have a fraud conviction which was over 7 years ago but still in public domain.
homerbert, is it regarding this? because we both know i have not done anything wrong regarding my deposits, play or use of the bitstarz website.

regarding pab, still hesitant to file as i dont trust the information bitstarz would provide, and the process seems biased to me

Hey!

Like I've repeated to you many times - you can PAB.

Br,

V.

 

[xexe]

FTR, PAB means that Max will listen to both sides. But if a casino can provide clear information, proof, protocols etc that clearly point to what happened, there isn't much one can do.

No, we are not taking anything for granted. In general, we side with an OP first until we see how the story goes, after all everyone here is a player.

But you always seem very biased against a casino. Do you know how much fraud or attempted fraud happens at online casinos? Casinos have separate departments just for fraud detection and it still happens.

And no, I would not give a dime of details/information in a public forum or to the alleged fraudster. No way as it could give away what methods I use to detect the attempted fraud.

The point is though, that the player can't really clear himself if he don't know what he's being accused of.

And I'm certainly not biased against the casinos, I can link you to multiple comments where I defend casinos. Here's one: Leovegas balance wiped. And I don't even play on LeoVegas. I might seem biased when compared to most users on this site for being 50/50 and not always believing the casino. I, for one, believe in innocent until proven guilty (and no, not letting the victim defend himself against accusations doesn't count as "proven").

I also keep repeating that I don't think they should give further details either. Letting him (not the forum, just him) know why his money was taken doesn't give him any information of how he got caught. To people here, a site filled with affiliates who rely on these sites for their livelihood, this might seem fair. But as somebody neutral who hasn't been here very long, who's used to how it works in the real world (and who recently came out of a 7 month trial), the process appears extremely biased. If I wasn't allowed to hear and defend myself against the things my ex said about me, I wouldn't have my son today. And the excuse you repeat simply doesn't hold up. All criminals get to know what they're charged of, just the basic knowledge of what crime it is doesn't give them advantages IF they really did do it. Because if they did it, they'd already know what the crime was.

 

[Harry_BKK]

The point is though, that the player can't really clear himself if he don't know what he's being accused of.

And I'm certainly not biased against the casinos, I can link you to multiple comments where I defend casinos. Here's one: Leovegas balance wiped. And I don't even play on LeoVegas. I might seem biased when compared to most users on this site for being 50/50 and not always believing the casino. I, for one, believe in innocent until proven guilty (and no, not letting the victim defend himself against accusations doesn't count as "proven").

I also keep repeating that I don't think they should give further details either. Letting him (not the forum, just him) know why his money was taken doesn't give him any information of know how he got caught. To people here, a site filled with affiliates who rely on these sites for their livelihood, this might seem fair. But as somebody neutral who hasn't been here very long, who's used to how it works in the real world (and who recently came out of a 7 month trial), the process appears extremely biased. If I wasn't allowed to hear and defend myself against the things my ex said about me, I wouldn't have my son today. And the excuse you repeat simply doesn't hold up. All criminals get to know what they're charged of, just the basic knowledge of what crime it is doesn't give them advantages IF they really did do it. Because if they did it, they'd already know what the crime was.

He has been charged for breaking the terms of the casino. Not sure they pointed to the exact paragraph but that is what they claim and are happy for Max to look into it.

That is a ton more any other Curacao casino would have offered. Usually, you get not a single word and there is little if anything you can do. The OP seems to be in Europe, so maybe registering with / playing at an MGA or UKGC casino would be a wise move.