Game malfunction claim by casino

[iamkenly]

Hello to all,
I am a player at World Wide Vegas casino and joined last week. I made 3 $200 deposits. I lost the first two deposits. I was succesful with the third deposit playing craps. Over a 3 day period, I won over $21,000. I was betting very high stakes as my balance grew over the 3 days with some bets as large as $900/roll. After several cashouts, my account was disabled and the casino said they were investigating a game malfunction. That was 4 days ago. They have stayed in touch with me, however, my response to them was that I did not notice any game problems or malfunctions over the 3 day period. In fact, I was winning and losing all along the way. I had swings up and down for thousands of dollars. I even had to reverse several cashouts after losing what was in my balance. They have informed me that their software provider is looking into the matter and will let me know when they have a determination. My account is still disabled and they have disabled their craps game as well on their site. Do I have any recourse in this matter? and how should this be handled? Are all of my bets null and void and am I just at their mercy? Are all 3 days going to be wiped out, b/c I also played other games that I also did well at? How are these issues usually handled? I still claim that there was no game malfunction, certainly not one that was noticeable or abused by me.
Please help advise me on this matter.
Thank you

 

[cipher]

Hello to all,
I am a player at World Wide Vegas casino and joined last week. I made 3 $200 deposits. I lost the first two deposits. I was succesful with the third deposit playing craps. Over a 3 day period, I won over $21,000. I was betting very high stakes as my balance grew over the 3 days with some bets as large as $900/roll. After several cashouts, my account was disabled and the casino said they were investigating a game malfunction. That was 4 days ago. They have stayed in touch with me, however, my response to them was that I did not notice any game problems or malfunctions over the 3 day period. In fact, I was winning and losing all along the way. I had swings up and down for thousands of dollars. I even had to reverse several cashouts after losing what was in my balance. They have informed me that their software provider is looking into the matter and will let me know when they have a determination. My account is still disabled and they have disabled their craps game as well on their site. Do I have any recourse in this matter? and how should this be handled? Are all of my bets null and void and am I just at their mercy? Are all 3 days going to be wiped out, b/c I also played other games that I also did well at? How are these issues usually handled? I still claim that there was no game malfunction, certainly not one that was noticeable or abused by me.
Please help advise me on this matter.
Thank you

Hi Iamkenly:

Welcome to the Forum. How long has this matter been under review by the software provider? The best thing that I can tell you to do is to memorialize everything by emails and/or (if possible) by screenshots if you can.

This matter may prove to be the casino just making sure things are straight. But in the interim you should do everything to protect yourself. Have a good one.

 

[iamkenly]

Casino malfunction claim

Thanks for your advise. I was locked out last Thursday , so I would say the software provider has been looking into this for about 3 days. I have saved all my e-mails to and from them as well as taken some screen shots of where they backed all my winnings out before disabling me. I sure hope they do the right thing!!!! any more advise or previous experiences with matters like this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[paul02085]

Sounds like total BS to me. Might want to check this out. Parlay is the software provider of World Wide Vegas.

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/forums/threads/hustlergames-are-they-hustling-me.4389/

 

[jetset]

Cipher is the best person to advise you on this because he assisted another player with a similar problem. Heed his advice and remember that you can insist on being provided with your game logs, too.

WW Vegas was powered by Parley Entertainment-DCEG last time I looked them over (they were at one time using GSS, who were constantly in trouble with the player community)

The operator was an outfit called Azul Electrico SA out of Costa Rica (a *jurisdiction* not famous for enforcing standards at online casinos)

Your winnings are significant, and that always seems to trigger a reaction from lower end casinos.

Good luck with this incident.

 

[iamkenly]

Still no payment

Hello all,

I still have not received anything from World Wide Vegas except "We are awaiting a determination from our software provider" It has been nearly a month since they took over $20,000 out of my account after 3 days of gambling with them. I was told over two weeks ago that they hoped to hear something that day. But, nothing. I have submitted a PIB to Bryan, Anyone one else that can help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,
Robert Kenly Musch
iamkenly

 

[wanda5]

Hi Robert

I am so sorry thats happened, I cant imagine what you are going through HOW FRICKIN DISAPPOINTING!!!
Its great that you came here...these people are awesome and can really help in tight situations. I felt totally sick to my stomach when I read your post ! PLEASE keep us up on what happens.
BTW, were neighbors!

Best of luck,
Wanda

Hello all,

I still have not received anything from World Wide Vegas except "We are awaiting a determination from our software provider" It has been nearly a month since they took over $20,000 out of my account after 3 days of gambling with them. I was told over two weeks ago that they hoped to hear something that day. But, nothing. I have submitted a PIB to Bryan, Anyone one else that can help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you,
Robert Kenly Musch
iamkenly

 

[largeeyes]

This is one of JOhn's casinos over at Gone Gambling. He seems to keep the rift raft off, so hopefully this casino will do the right thing and pay up.

 

[jetset]

Thanks for that information, Largeeyes - I'll bring this to GG's attention.

Just yesterday I sent a FOURTH chaser to Parlay Entertainment as we have yet to receive an explanation from them on this. I have now started in on their (DCEG) parent.

 

[greedygirl]

Hi iamkenly--

Sorry to hear about the troubles you're having. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised, as WWV has been around since the dark ages of online gambling, and with few troubles (that I'm aware of).

Generally, GoneGambling has a policy of assisting only our own members (Bryan does a wonderful job settling things!), however, as Jetset has brought this to my attention, I'll see what I can do to get things sorted out for you.

Please drop an email to me with all pertinent correspondance to: [email protected]

 

[iamkenly]

Thanks for all your help

Thank you all for your help with this. I will followup as soon as I hear something new from WWV. It is still being reviewed by their software provider, but I expect that will be over soon. Their stance is that I somehow manipulated the game or took advantage of some malfunction. I did no such thing. I hope to have good news from them when the software company gets back with them.
Thanks again for your help

iamkenly

 

[jetset]

QUOTE Their stance is that I somehow manipulated the game or took advantage of some malfunction. UNQUOTE

That is a serious accusation, and one that demands very specific proof. But I still cannot understand why the software provider should be taking such a long time to "make a determination" and provide the evidence backing it.

You're in good hands with GG from GG and I would recommend that you accept her invitation to contact her with the nitty gritty.

Please keep the forum informed as I am sure many people will be following this.

 

[Freudian]

Don't know if this is the case here, but I suspect many online casinos are seriously underfunded. This sounds like a desperation move on part of the casino.

 

[Freudian]

I forgot: Why on earth should the player bear the full risk of the casinos software malfunctioning? Wouldn't simple logic (and I suspect the law in most countries, but the onlinecasino business operate outside normal law) have the operator bear the risk of their software malfuctioning?

 

[555YY]

I forgot: Why on earth should the player bear the full risk of the casinos software malfunctioning? Wouldn't simple logic (and I suspect the law in most countries, but the onlinecasino business operate outside normal law) have the operator bear the risk of their software malfuctioning?

absolutely! if a blackjack dealer at a landbased casino accidently exposed his hole card and you vary your strategy accordingly, no casino in the world would use that as an excuse to refuse payment

 

[The Dude]

I forgot: Why on earth should the player bear the full risk of the casinos software malfunctioning? Wouldn't simple logic (and I suspect the law in most countries, but the onlinecasino business operate outside normal law) have the operator bear the risk of their software malfuctioning?

Hi Freudian,

With software, I don't think it works this way. Whenever you agree to use any software - and this goes from Microgaming to Microsoft - there is always a disclaimer somewhere in the user agreements that washes the provider from liabilities if there are malfunctions. That's a bit of a generality, but it's pretty much true.

The same goes for Vegas. If you win x amount on a slot machine, and it turned out that the slots malfunctioned, you probably won't get paid either.

Bummer, but that's that way it usually goes.

 

[Simmo!]

Hi Freudian,

With software, I don't think it works this way. Whenever you agree to use any software - and this goes from Microgaming to Microsoft - there is always a disclaimer somewhere in the user agreements that washes the provider from liabilities if there are malfunctions. That's a bit of a generality, but it's pretty much true.

The same goes for Vegas. If you win x amount on a slot machine, and it turned out that the slots malfunctioned, you probably won't get paid either.

Bummer, but that's that way it usually goes.

Bryan is right, but a lot of the time you find that the law takes a "general" stance on these issues and in an instance such as this, should it turn out to be a malfunction in the software, you'd probably find there are lines of appeal that would be fairer to the player.

Personally, i think you'll find it is NOT a software malfunction and they'll turn round and offer to pay the player here - my hunch is in installments - as if the software manufacturer admits to dodgy software, that's pretty much going to be the end of their business IMHO.

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[Freudian]

Bryan is right, but a lot of the time you find that the law takes a "general" stance on these issues and in an instance such as this, should it turn out to be a malfunction in the software, you'd probably find there are lines of appeal that would be fairer to the player.

Personally, i think you'll find it is NOT a software malfunction and they'll turn round and offer to pay the player here - my hunch is in installments - as if the software manufacturer admits to dodgy software, that's pretty much going to be the end of their business IMHO.

Cheers

Simmo!

Exactly. Often clauses that violate basic principles of contract law are deemed as not valid (even if the customer clicked an "I agree" box). I think the casinos would have a hard time winning a case like this in any western country. But since they are strategically situated in banana republics, it's not like it matters.

 

[555YY]

"software malfunction voids all WINNINGS"

this imo is total b.s

why is it that only if you WIN can they invoke that rule?

why can i invoke this and get my money back the next time i lose big in online blackjack? since i'm certain there was 'software malfuntion' (ie: rigged)?

so if there was a software "malfuntion" only the player's WINNINGS get forfeited?? What about his losses? What about all the other players' losses at craps in WWVegas? Shouldn't they get their money back also since "malfunction voids ALL play"?

What's stopping a rogue casino from DELIBERATELY using a BUGGY software that they know to have malfunctions? The game would be still played to collect losses from player until such time as someone WINS BIG. Now they can take away those winnings and claim the software had bugs. They can even show proof!! Hey you know that sh***y software that we used for 5 years to rape players out of millions of dollars? Yea, it turns out that it had some bugs so now I guess i don't have to pay your 5 digit win....

note: i'm not saying that there definitely was a malfuntion in the software, but EVEN if there was, this escape clause ought not to be utilized unless they agree to REFUND ALL losses incurred at craps by ALL of the players who ever played the game at WW Vegas.

 

[555YY]

let's use another analogy

let's say i'm a casino owner and wrote my own blackjack software. But in my code I decided skew the odds a little bit toward the house. it could be as simple as slightly weighting the small cards over face cards/aces. the extra weighting allows the house to gain 1 or 2% more advantage over the regular player. I use this code for the house to win more than the theoretical return under the assumption of a random game. Thousands of players have played my blackjack and lost more than what they expected to.

now someone comes along and discovers this 'bug' in my software, and he uses this to his advantage. (say by hitting more on the borderline hands when he should've stood using basic strategy) and he beats the house out of thousands of dollars.

when its time to cash in, i check his gameplay and realizes that he found and exploited my bug. i claim that there was a software malfuntion and thus voids him of his winnings

now is my claim valid since:
a.) there was a malfuntion in the sofware (ie: not totally random)
b.) a player exploited this malfunction to his advantage?

 

[wanda5]

Jeeze if its all suppose to be "random" as far as winning, how in the world can you tell if its a malfunction UNLESS it misbehaved bad enough to be totally obvious? And then if it was, why does it not get resolved QUICK? It seems strange that they would have only one person who it malfunked on, but if it were more, it seems like they would have shut down those games completely. Did they? If they didnt, are they just waiting for it to happen again to someone else? I mean can a few games screw up just once in a while? or is there a definate glitch in the software?
Very confusing

 

[tim5ny]

More bullshit! Aren't you people tired of gambling twice? First.. you gamble at the online casinos with the odds greatly against you winning... and then you have to gamble as to wheather you'll get paid or not. The whole thing sucks big time!!

 

[bagofmaggots]

What about malfunctions where players lose

What if a "software malfunction" causes the casino to win? Do casino's ever encounter that senario? You bet they do ! Do they refund player losses in a case like that? Of course NOT ! It's only a malfunction if a casino loses money. It's their responsibility to test their software. If they determine that something was wrong and cancel players winnings they need to refund EVERYONES losses on that game as well ! Fair is fair, right?

 

[jetset]

Still no response from Parlay Entertainment

The more I see of this issue the more suspicious it becomes. Casino seems to have pulled up the drawbridge and so does its software provider Parlay.

It should not take a competent software provider longer than 48 - 72 hours to run checks on its gaming software and the player logs, yet here we are a month down the line and we have an operator who is dodging the player and making non-specific claims about dud software, and a software provider that has gone into dumb (as in mute and stupid) mode.

I've seen this pattern before, and it ended in the casino going belly-up.

$20 000 is a lot of money in anyone's book, and Parlay Entertainment need to issue an explanation and a full report either through GG or publicly.

And pay the man - and not in instalments either.

One thing is for sure - players should stay the hell away from Parlay-powered casinos as a precaution.

 

[bagofmaggots]

It should not take a competent software provider longer than 48 - 72 hours to run checks on its gaming software and the player logs, yet here we are a month down the line and we have an operator who is dodging the player and making non-specific claims about dud software, and a software provider that has gone into dumb (as in mute and stupid) mode.
QUOTE]

Excellent point. The key word is "competent" Sounds like they are trying very hard to find a malfunction to weasel out of paying a big winner.

 

[jetset]

If they are, they had better have a watertight case because the player community has a low tolerance threshold for this sort of stuff, and the knock on effects will be felt by other Parlay-powered casinos.

 

[Annorax]

If they are, they had better have a watertight case because the player community has a low tolerance threshold for this sort of stuff, and the knock on effects will be felt by other Parlay-powered casinos.

...which in all fairness, not all Parlay powered casinos are like that.

The place I posted about with the 10-day waiting period for withdrawal from a new account was Caribbean Party, a Parlay powered casino.

Once the 10-day period expired and I requested a withdrawal, I had the money in under 24 hours.

What does it take to get these guys on the Reputable list.. or at the very least, if Parlay ends up rogue, can these guys not be on the Rogue?

 

[jetset]

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. Where there is strong indication that the software is prone to fault, and especially where this is compounded by a software provider and casino operator who remain resolutely and overlong silent on the issue - even to the player in private - then I think it is a big CAUTION flag all round.

 

[jetset]

Iamkenley, have there been any further developments here from your side?

DCEG-Parlay remain apparently on another (and uncommunicative) planet.

However, I have received an email from the casino manager claiming that although to date no evidence of wrongdoing on your part can be found, DCEG have yet to finish their enquiry. He also says WWV has millions in the bank and that your payout does not represent a problem if no software malfunction is found.

I have suggested to him that enough time has now elapsed for both casino and provider to put up or shut up and pay.

Please keep this thread advised.

 

[iamkenly]

Update on World Wide Vegas

Hello all,

Thank you again for all your assistance. I spoke with the casino manager today by phone and I am very encouraged to tell everyone that he will have a final determination tomorrow and that he said that he ultimately does need to pay me. I was very happy with my discussion with him and I told him the last thing I wanted to do was hurt his business. They have been in business for over 5 years and have a good reputation, thats why I am now confident that I will be paid. He has some issues with his software provider that he still needs to address. I will be speaking with him tomorrow to get this completely finalized. I will update you after I speak with him. It appears to be very good news .
Thanks again,
Robert Kenly Musch
iamkenly

 

[555YY]

Hello all,

Thank you again for all your assistance. I spoke with the casino manager today by phone and I am very encouraged to tell everyone that he will have a final determination tomorrow and that he said that he ultimately does need to pay me. I was very happy with my discussion with him and I told him the last thing I wanted to do was hurt his business. They have been in business for over 5 years and have a good reputation, thats why I am now confident that I will be paid. He has some issues with his software provider that he still needs to address. I will be speaking with him tomorrow to get this completely finalized. I will update you after I speak with him. It appears to be very good news .
Thanks again,
Robert Kenly Musch
iamkenly

congrats!

i suggest the next time you want to gamble online, find a more reputable casino via the casinomeister links however

 

[largeeyes]

As a gone gambling casino, I think he did do his homework. I am glad to see that things will probably work out ok.

 

[jetset]

This is good news, iamkenly and I hope Andrew comes through on his promises. Please keep us updated here as often as necessary as many of us are now following this matter with keen interest.

I think it does raise a number of interesting issues:

1) The player's *contract* is with the casino, and it should therefore be an obligation on the casino to treat the customer with respect and courtesy in cases like this. That includes regular communication and advising him/her on fundamental things like why his/her account is being locked, how long the delay will be and why he is not being timeously paid.

2) What is a reasonable time for a casino to refuse to pay a player because it suspects (I repeat "suspects") that there may have been a software malfunction and needs the expert input of its software provider? I would think that competent companies should need no longer than a week for this.

3) If there has been a software malfunction, how can the player community be certain that the ruling is genuine and supported by factual and acceptable evidence - it could be too easy for a crooked casino, or for that matter a dud software provider to simply invoke the "software malfunction" clause in the T&Cs and merely send the player his or her deposit. Convincing evidence would not imo be a suspicion that things were not right, or an opinion that the player was *too lucky* in relation to the casino-biased gambling math involved.

4) It seems that the question of "software malfunctions" always seem to arise when a big win is being claimed, and usually at a casino that is struggling - is there a correlation? That's a rhetorical question btw!

5) As someone else here has already pointed out, if a software malfunction is identified what about all the losing players in that timeframe?

The software malfunction excuse has been raised enough times to be worrying in the context of the above questions. Unregulated casinos need to be aware that when they make disqualifications on these grounds they immediately come under the microscope themselves, together with their software provider. That could have serious trust implications for the future in respect of their businesses.

One final word. Parlay Entertainment has yet to respond in any way to emails on this issue. That is not only unprofessional, but i.m.o. is cause for caution. There are other rumours circulating of discontinued games at Parlay sites, unpaid affiliates and previous *malfunctions.* That does not sit comfortably with players or the rest of the industry.

 

[greedygirl]

A bit of follow-up on this matter...

I spoke with Andrew, Thursday, and he stated that the only reason iamkenly would not be paid would be if there was any sort of proof via DCEG (Parlay) of the player somehow manipulating the software in his favor. Andrew realized that if DCEG dragged their feet in this determination, he would have no choice but to pay the player, regardless.

Fortunately, in this case, DCEG came back with the goods, and there was no untoward play by iamkenly. After speaking with Andrew today, it is my understanding that iamkenly's withdrawal has now been made in total via wire transfer.

In fairness to both Andrew and WorldWideVegas, I'd like to point out that these guys have been in business for over six years. We've had considerable experience with this casino (back in '98, as well as ongoing in the past 18 months or so). I can count the number of player issues we've had with WWV on one hand--and of these issues, most were due to a player not understanding the terms and conditions. Further, of these issues, ALL were resolved swiftly and favorably for the player. Unfortunately, I can't think of many casinos with this sort of track record, no matter how reputable they may be. It is an impressive track record for WWV.

Another point which should be made is that iamkenly exercised incredible fairness (matched with patience) in his handling of this matter. I'm not certain if I'd won that amount of cash that I'd be able to be as calm and patient as he had. Good job, iamkenly.

 

[555YY]

As a gone gambling casino, I think he did do his homework. I am glad to see that things will probably work out ok.

maybe, but then when i hear parlay software i usually run for the hills

 

[iamkenly]

Great News from WWV

Hello all,

I am pleased to let everyone know that I have had my entire balance re-instated at WWV and have cashed out via their accounting department. Andrew spoke with me today and put my entire balance back in my account. I am thrilled to give all of you this news. Thank you GreedyGirl for your comments about both myself and WWV. Although I did have to wait awhile for a final determination, I can say that Andrew did deal with me fairly after reviewing the issue with his software company and I am pleased to tell you that I have already started to play their again after a very large cashout of most of my balance. I expect to receive my funds in a couple of days and will update you all when I do. Thanks again to everyone for all your help and assistance.

Robert Kenly Musch
iamkenly

 

[jetset]

Truly great to see you succeed after all the stress and hassle that this has involved for you iamkenley, but I think you're a brave man to continue playing the software of a provider who doesn't communicate with the public and has some history of malfunctions.

I think in Andrew's place I would be looking around for somewhat better software than Parley's appears to be LOL!

 

[jetset]

I've just been re-reading GreedyGirl's good news post above, and the following caught my eye due to its positive connotations:

QUOTE I spoke with Andrew, Thursday, and he stated that the only reason iamkenly would not be paid would be if there was any sort of proof via DCEG (Parlay) of the player somehow manipulating the software in his favor. Andrew realized that if DCEG dragged their feet in this determination, he would have no choice but to pay the player, regardless.UNQUOTE

This implies that the mere fact of a software malfunction (one not *manipulated* by the player) is not sufficient to warrant cancelling a player's winnings, even if the T&Cs make provision for that.

 

[mary]

If you want to encourage Parley, a publically traded company, to respond to Brian Cullingworth's inquiries, give them a prod here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

They want people to buy their stock, they should answer their email about allegations of unsound software.

 

[antili]

I'm having the same problem with a casino, Supercoin. They won't give me my payout due to illegal betting having been detected directly by the game providers system. So they took all my winnings, forfeited. Supercoin my butt