Maybe it's just me - pub machine questions

[Racing Dog]

When I was young I used to play all sorts of mechanical games in the UK penny arcades. When I was older I would be a regular on the pub slot machine, when such machines were still a novel idea! Yeah I'm ancient. I still play vintage machines when the opportunity arises, but I haven't played the pub machines in decades. Why? Basically they just became too damn complicated. Being of a cautious nature I didn't fancy trying to figure out what the confusing array of lights was all about without some sort user guide, and you never get user guides. Why did I think that? Well if I'm learning I'm making mistakes and if I'm making mistakes I'm losing money. No thanks.

So is it just me? I think it may not be just me because I can sit in any one of several local pubs and whilst I'm there see absolutely no one play the machine! Presumably somebody plays these things, but I rarely see them. I was recently on a long week end at a holiday camp where there were five machines in the corridor between the main bar and the ballroom. In the entire weekend I saw nobody play any of them once, despite them being frequently in view. Given that when these machines first appeared in pubs the were so popular it was difficult to get a go on them what is different now to how it was?

I can think of two things. Firstly, because the potential individual payouts are now much higher relative to the stake, the machines must perforce payout less frequently which means the player is faced with long periods of losing mitigated by only the occasional minor payout. That is just tedious, boring and depressing, in other words a complete turn off.

The second is the percentage return. If one can play machines on line that payout 90% or more, and one can even play them on ones phone, why would anyone want to play a greedy 75% machine.

Where did it start to go wrong? Well the switch from electro-mechanical to electronic machines is pretty much the break point. That is also more or less the point where machines stopped being random. I never really understood that either. I mean, if you want a 75% machine, how incompetent do you have to be as a designer that you can't make the machine behave like that as a random chance machine? It is just about calculating the odds is it not? And if you've really designed a game that is too complicated for maths, are you also incapable of running several million computer simulations instead?

All of which leads me to a final question. There is plenty on the web with respect to vintage mechanical machines, which sometimes references early electro-mechanical machines; and there is plenty on the web about electronic machines. But I'm damned if I can find anything about the electro-mechanicals in general and I'm at an age where nostalgia has kicked in! Are there any such specific resources? I'm a bit old for ferreting through general forums looking for occasional threads, at this age one tends to be concerned about burning up the short time left!

Cheers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Not entirely sure what you mean by the second to last paragraph. As someone who has designed an programmed multiple fruit machines and slots, I'm inquisitive as to why you think us game designers are incompetent....

 

[Steviedoo]

Not entirely sure what you mean by the second to last paragraph. As someone who has designed an programmed multiple fruit machines and slots, I'm inquisitive as to why you think us game designers are incompetent....

Do you really wanna ask someone who basically just said that machines stopped being random once they became electronic. And do we really wanna know the answer.

 

[suchfun]

affiliates incoming,no one can ever get a thread in here without same people attacking and insinuating that your a moron for making a post,maybe its just the money train they gotta try to keep going,still to me seems rude

 

[trancemonkey]

affiliates incoming,no one can ever get a thread in here without same people attacking and insinuating that your a moron for making a post,maybe its just the money train they gotta try to keep going,still to me seems rude

Who is an affiliate?

And I don't believe anyone has said they are a moron for making the post. Merely asking for more information so that we can further the discussion. So I would keep your wild, ill-informed accusations to yourself.... im no shill.

 

[Tirilej]

Who is an affiliate?

And I don't believe anyone has said they are a moron for making the post. Merely asking for more information so that we can further the discussion. So I would keep your wild, ill-informed accusations to yourself.... im no shill.

Read the guy's latest posts and you'll see why he is on a quest of trying to make you look bad

 

[trancemonkey]

Read the guy's latest posts and you'll see why he is on a quest of trying to make you look bad

I know .. some people can't disagree or have a debate without resorting to anger or name calling or the rest. All I've ever tried to do is explain my side or the argument. No one HAS to agree, but the idea is to at least help them challenge their beliefs. If would appear suchfun is not willing to change their mind and would rather say I'm a liar without any proof.

Oh well... Hopefully they will calm down and stop the anger and vitriol. But if not, then there is not much we can do

 

[slotter999]

@Racing Dog I think you are on the money in regards to stake => jackpot ratio and pitiful blocked wins. It just killed them entirely and make them unplayable or costing £100 plus to force. I still think £15 JP or maybe £25 was the golden era. Getting the satisfaction of JP without costing a fortune.

@trancemonkey from a production point of view I assume AWPs were harder to code than random slots? Maybe not compared against something like megaways but certainly much easier when compared to low tech slots I would imagine? What do you think?

 

[Racing Dog]

I have an unfortunate habit of overstating the case, sorry (but it does get people's attention!).

What I meant was, slot machines, since their invention, have always made a profit. They did that by having the odds paid on random outcomes skewed in the operator's favour. So saying to the players, we are going to make it even worse for you by making the machine non-random, doesn't sound like a move which will encourage players to play. And players are not playing in pubs in the numbers they used to in the early days. As I said, I see machines, wherever I go, standing idle for long periods. That would never have happened (for any significant length of time) in the old days. As this situation has existed for many years, I must presume designers are doing nothing to reverse this trend.

Perhaps we go to different pubs, I can only go by what I see in the ones I go to.

 

[dunover]

I have an unfortunate habit of overstating the case, sorry (but it does get people's attention!).

What I meant was, slot machines, since their invention, have always made a profit. They did that by having the odds paid on random outcomes skewed in the operator's favour. So saying to the players, we are going to make it even worse for you by making the machine non-random, doesn't sound like a move which will encourage players to play. And players are not playing in pubs in the numbers they used to in the early days. As I said, I see machines, wherever I go, standing idle for long periods. That would never have happened (for any significant length of time) in the old days. As this situation has existed for many years, I must presume designers are doing nothing to reverse this trend.

Perhaps we go to different pubs, I can only go by what I see in the ones I go to.

I've only skimmed this but as you're in the UK I can tell you that until the advent of randomized videoslots such as the FOBTs and cabinet games recently appearing with online versions, you've never played a 'random' electromechanical slot game in the UK. Until not long ago, mechanical slots in the UK were licensed and regulated by BACTA and were all compensated or had pseudo-random facets to features. This goes for your club machines, arcade and pub ones and still does unless playing one of the ones I mentioned earlier.

This is why most pub, arcade and club machines could be 'forced' or emptied by pro-players. I still cannot get past the fact this was ever allowed to develop here as it's almost anomalous to the UK.

Yes, the stakes and jackpots are now unrealistic and like you I cannot remember the last time I saw somebody play them in a pub or restaurant etc. Why play this garbage at 70-80-odd% when you can play random ones online? The only people whoever really liked them were addicts or people who believed they could win on them and indeed could if they watched previous compensation occurring before they went on them.

You're probably well advised to go to this thread here for some decent info:

My online slots videos (plus UK AWPs)

 

[shadow123]

Think there is a little confusion about what an electromechanical slot is here, basically they used a bunch
of relays and the machine sequence was controlled by a programmer with a motor driven shaft with a load
of rotors and switches to control the reel stopping and payout sequences.The randomisation was achieved
by a unit with irregular rotor which stopped and started the main programmer motor in a semi random fashion.
I was designing these machines at bell fruit way back in the late seventies, the truly electronic machines were
just starting to appear about then.The early ones had no compensation,relying on the correct maths and symbol
combinations to give the required rtp the same way electromechanic machines did.Worked out pretty well
really , the rtp was never that far out.

 

[trancemonkey]

@Racing Dog I think you are on the money in regards to stake => jackpot ratio and pitiful blocked wins. It just killed them entirely and make them unplayable or costing £100 plus to force. I still think £15 JP or maybe £25 was the golden era. Getting the satisfaction of JP without costing a fortune.

@trancemonkey from a production point of view I assume AWPs were harder to code than random slots? Maybe not compared against something like megaways but certainly much easier when compared to low tech slots I would imagine? What do you think?

Fruit machines are complex beasts because of the compensation element, as well as player interaction, game design, etc. You need to check things like "can I afford to give nudges twice if I spin to a nudge square on an 11 or 2 and I have an extra life"... they can be, and are, quite complicated. Especially as games are now far more complex. Arguably too complex - which might be why we don't see people play them as much. The fun has gone and now they are just a low RTP game of risk.

 

[trancemonkey]

I have an unfortunate habit of overstating the case, sorry (but it does get people's attention!).

What I meant was, slot machines, since their invention, have always made a profit. They did that by having the odds paid on random outcomes skewed in the operator's favour. So saying to the players, we are going to make it even worse for you by making the machine non-random, doesn't sound like a move which will encourage players to play. And players are not playing in pubs in the numbers they used to in the early days. As I said, I see machines, wherever I go, standing idle for long periods. That would never have happened (for any significant length of time) in the old days. As this situation has existed for many years, I must presume designers are doing nothing to reverse this trend.

Perhaps we go to different pubs, I can only go by what I see in the ones I go to.

You simply couldn't make a "modern fruit machine" random. The old electro-mecahnical ones that WERE random had no features.

 

[The Dude]

affiliates incoming,no one can ever get a thread in here without same people attacking and insinuating that your a moron for making a post,maybe its just the money train they gotta try to keep going,still to me seems rude

Yeah, keep up the troll-like posts and see what happens. The grown ups are trying to have a conversation here.

 

[KasinoKing]

So is it just me? I think it may not be just me because I can sit in any one of several local pubs and whilst I'm there see absolutely no one play the machine! Presumably somebody plays these things, but I rarely see them. I was recently on a long week end at a holiday camp where there were five machines in the corridor between the main bar and the ballroom. In the entire weekend I saw nobody play any of them once, despite them being frequently in view. Given that when these machines first appeared in pubs the were so popular it was difficult to get a go on them what is different now to how it was?

I can think of two things. Firstly, because the potential individual payouts are now much higher relative to the stake, the machines must perforce payout less frequently which means the player is faced with long periods of losing mitigated by only the occasional minor payout. That is just tedious, boring and depressing, in other words a complete turn off.

The second is the percentage return. If one can play machines on line that payout 90% or more, and one can even play them on ones phone, why would anyone want to play a greedy 75% machine.

I was a self confessed fruity addict when I was younger (MUCH younger!) - nearly every week I would get paid (cash in those days!) and go straight to the arcades (I live in a seaside town) and blow half my wages.
Although I did reign it back a bit, I was still addicted for a good 15-20 years.

Two things lead to me stopping this habit:
First playing online took over - much easier, bigger win potential and of course MUCH higher RTPs.
Bit more importantly - all the fruit machines seemed to be clones of just 2 or 3 types - with most being Deal or no Deal clones.
Just not enough variety any more

KK

 

[Racing Dog]

Maybe I was being too coy with my age, I was actually talking about late '60s early '70s when you either had no features at all or maybe just hold buttons. If you were really lucky you might also be allowed a small number of nudges once in a while.

To those above who said "too complicated" nowadays, yes thank you for that, you confirm one of my points. Perhaps that can be emphasised by asking what made the original penny arcades so successful? Most of you are too young, even the older ones! Basically it was instant "yay" or instant "aww", in other words immediate psychological feed back. What is good about the win sounds of a modern machine? All you get is some artificial sound stimulus and a tiny number counts up on a tiny display. The real positive feedback, coins rattling in the cup is delayed until much later. Actual coins in the cup as soon as you win is an unbeatable feedback.

I suppose I ought to also confess to having bought a brand new Fivewin style machine back in the summer! Now I'm really showing my age! lol

But we are straying from the main point which is why is nobody providing machines that pub patrons actually want to play? Pub clientele is not Arcade clientele, is not Casino clientele. Most people don't want to spend hours mastering a machine, but if putting a few coins in gives the fun of getting a few coins back, loads of casual players would start playing again.

 

[shadow123]

I started playing around then with dire consequences i would rather not go into, never stopped me playing
though.I remember the ACE Monty Carlo machine coming out,revolutionary for its time but lethal to
service as everything was mains voltage including the reel mech, There was a case of someone
almost being electrocuted by the game start handle which somehow became live at mains voltage.

Disagree about the electromechanical machines being truely random,they were far from it,
but were ok for the time.As far as I know (shoot me down here),the best random generator is
based on white noise from a reverse biased diode which was incorporated into the pre processor
electronic machines.

 

[snorky510238]

Maybe I was being too coy with my age, I was actually talking about late '60s early '70s when you either had no features at all or maybe just hold buttons. If you were really lucky you might also be allowed a small number of nudges once in a while.

To those above who said "too complicated" nowadays, yes thank you for that, you confirm one of my points. Perhaps that can be emphasised by asking what made the original penny arcades so successful? Most of you are too young, even the older ones! Basically it was instant "yay" or instant "aww", in other words immediate psychological feed back. What is good about the win sounds of a modern machine? All you get is some artificial sound stimulus and a tiny number counts up on a tiny display. The real positive feedback, coins rattling in the cup is delayed until much later. Actual coins in the cup as soon as you win is an unbeatable feedback.

I suppose I ought to also confess to having bought a brand new Fivewin style machine back in the summer! Now I'm really showing my age! lol

But we are straying from the main point which is why is nobody providing machines that pub patrons actually want to play? Pub clientele is not Arcade clientele, is not Casino clientele. Most people don't want to spend hours mastering a machine, but if putting a few coins in gives the fun of getting a few coins back, loads of casual players would start playing again.

I don’t know much about it but what is the max jackpot allowed in a pub a £100 or something? And percentage payout? Gamblers are more educated nowadays. Back then that was your only choice take or leave it. Nowadays why would you pay 50p for a max cap of x200 win or whatever it is, when that same 50p can earn you say 100,000 x stake online. Pretty much the only people who play pub or chip shop slots are compulsive gamblers.

 

[paul7388]

But we are straying from the main point which is why is nobody providing machines that pub patrons actually want to play? Pub clientele is not Arcade clientele, is not Casino clientele. Most people don't want to spend hours mastering a machine, but if putting a few coins in gives the fun of getting a few coins back, loads of casual players would start playing again.

Guess it comes down to most people are not interested in playing machines in pubs anymore. Sadly what you said is mainly the opposite now. Most people that did play machines in pubs now gamble online and use their phones for it.

I used to play machines in arcades. Used to enjoy putting a few quid in the machine in the pub. But once i started gambling online i just had no interest.

Do not play machines at all now. Actually decided to put a few quid in one on the ferry a few months back first time in many a year. After just a coupe of quid i was bored and just had no interest in playing. Guess people have moved on now and machines will die out eventually. Even have an arcade near where i stay. Years back it would have been full. These days you pass it and noone in it. If you went back to basic machines they would be even worse. People now want everything as fancy as they can get. Just some older people still like things that are basic. But even the old grannies are now playing bingo on phones and tablets lol.

 

[shadow123]

Not been an arcade for years, like you i just had a few plays and got bored,cant see where the fun was
now but thats all we had at the time

 

[dunover]

Maybe I was being too coy with my age, I was actually talking about late '60s early '70s when you either had no features at all or maybe just hold buttons. If you were really lucky you might also be allowed a small number of nudges once in a while.

To those above who said "too complicated" nowadays, yes thank you for that, you confirm one of my points. Perhaps that can be emphasised by asking what made the original penny arcades so successful? Most of you are too young, even the older ones! Basically it was instant "yay" or instant "aww", in other words immediate psychological feed back. What is good about the win sounds of a modern machine? All you get is some artificial sound stimulus and a tiny number counts up on a tiny display. The real positive feedback, coins rattling in the cup is delayed until much later. Actual coins in the cup as soon as you win is an unbeatable feedback.

I suppose I ought to also confess to having bought a brand new Fivewin style machine back in the summer! Now I'm really showing my age! lol

But we are straying from the main point which is why is nobody providing machines that pub patrons actually want to play? Pub clientele is not Arcade clientele, is not Casino clientele. Most people don't want to spend hours mastering a machine, but if putting a few coins in gives the fun of getting a few coins back, loads of casual players would start playing again.

Yes, there is a case to have simple press-and-win machines which were random and had no fripperies like nudges, game boards etc. There are few if any new players as the inexperienced punter or drinker would simply be baffled by the appearance of these modern day AWP's and feel intimidated by their appearance.
Maybe these manufacturers could go back to basics as opposed to providing these great cabinets lit up like Christmas trees.

 

[shadow123]

Dont think anyone has mentioned the dire rtp on pub machines,dont know if they have improved
but I doubt it.Never understand the thinking behind it as it a more or less captive customer base
who might try a new a couple of times then say stuff it.Seaside operators can get away with it
as it is almost all passing trade.

 

[Jono777]

The changes are not just the machines which is why we've seen a rapid decline in their play and also even their presence!

Society and pubs have changed too, the gang of lads on pay day round the machines are an older generation, wiser and moved on in the main.

Smoking ban stopped a lot of pub goers and a lot of smokers were also fruit machine players, the awareness of professional players too would have been a factor "No point playing that, bet Jono was in at lunch time!" etc

Also as briefly mentioned in another post, (my mind set would fall in to this too) "£100 JP, I've got no chance so I won't even bother!" whereas back in the £4.00/£4.80/£6.00/£8.00/£10.00/£15.00/£25.00/£35.00 days, I and others would take a punt.

Not just the pubs either, rare I venture in to actually play any more but my two local arcades would regularly see approx 40-50% of the machines 'manned' at one particular time, now when I pop in for a piss and to say hi to staff who I've know years that there are never more than 4-5 people in there, usually the disability benefits players and the odd OAP.

 

[goatwack]

The arcade scene is dead and has been for years. Yes it was fun playing rows of (video game) coin-ops as opposed to my NES at home back in the day, now I can store every game ever made on my smartphone

And fruities are hardly what one'd call an interactive medium, they're relics of a bygone age that no one's going to muse over in great detail, technology and consumer expectations have moved on from using 10ps the size of coasters.

Apart from the aforementioned 'quiz' machines, most pubs will only sport modern fruit machines for those too pissed to know what they're doing or for decorative purposes. There will never be a resurgence of these machines as the market isn't there....

 

[shadow123]

you should have seen the size of a half crown,puts the piddling 10p to shame

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But we are straying from the main point which is why is nobody providing machines that pub patrons actually want to play? Pub clientele is not Arcade clientele, is not Casino clientele. Most people don't want to spend hours mastering a machine, but if putting a few coins in gives the fun of getting a few coins back, loads of casual players would start playing again.

Sorry Mr Dog not got time to post a full reply at this moment in time, will catch up with this thread properly and post a more considered reply in due course.

However, I have covered your basic question there many times on my channel over the last year. (TL: DR - Stakes and jackpots got too big, far too many 'player advantage' methods that left bugger all for average punters to play for, clearly rigged gambles and features etc.)

Here's a starter for ten though, the 'pub machine' market is actually very healthy here on the Isle of Man, but we have different legislation to the UK which allows random machines with a £500 jackpot to be sited in the pubs here, and they do very, very well. In this video I discuss how the traditional pub fruity is nearly extinct on the Isle of Man now, but random games are doing a booming trade......

 

[KasinoKing]

Maybe I was being too coy with my age, I was actually talking about late '60s early '70s when you either had no features at all or maybe just hold buttons. If you were really lucky you might also be allowed a small number of nudges once in a while.

To those above who said "too complicated" nowadays, yes thank you for that, you confirm one of my points...

My era was mid 70's to early 90's.

And yeah - I forgot about that point - why don't fruit machines have frigging instructions on them???
When I have occasionally played modern ones and been offers a "bonus feature" I don't have the faintest clue what 90% of them actually do!
It's just ridiculous.

KK

 

[Jd666]

I still occasionally pop into an arcade when I am in town to play the multiplayers, did get a £118 win bank for 3 quid in the other day on a double decker, well plus another couple of quid for the board carrying on.
Ended up walking 200 up for about a hours play. Was more up but a partytime took ages to go up and gave me 2 quid haha, then tried for another win and couldnt be arsed anymore.
A lot of inland arcades dont even have Hi-tec machines anymore like the Deal Or No Deals and Betcom machines (well not around my area)
They are full of Barcrest 777 cabs, Admiral cabs, other video cabs, multiplayers and Bar X type machines.
Can be found in the pubs but I dont touch them.
I do play them at the coast when I go as you find some of the older machines, but even those are vanishing now except for places like Reelfruits.
Instant payouts and no KYC haha.
And FFS Astra, how many clones of Bullion Bars can you churn out.

Agree with Jono, couldnt fault the late 80's and 90's when I was on a shit wage but subsidised by my local arcade.
Thank you Project, Ace and BWB.

Meanwhile, I am going to see if the white fluffy bunny is in a kind mood

 

[JGslots]

Just have this image in my head that Tracemonkey was the lead on the design of this game or Screen Play

Pub fruits used to be amazing right up until even very recently with the likes of Powerplay or Batman Power Up.

I always found the good compensated machines to have separate pots, which was nice if you could identify those, for example a bust pot, deal pot or a pot on the power play button.

My most favourable era was defiantly Red Gaming, they made some quality games, which gave clear signs when they could be forced, for example; going through the block or showing lots of red features on low nudge win boards.

What games of gone by did you have involvement in Trance?

Rob

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Pub fruits used to be amazing right up until even very recently with the likes of Powerplay or Batman Power Up.

My most favourable era was defiantly Red Gaming, they made some quality games, which gave clear signs when they could be forced, for example; going through the block or showing lots of red features on low nudge win boards.

The thing there Rob is you're just comparing one range of 'doable' machines with another range of 'doable' machines. Poweplay (Batman Power Up being a clone of course) is one of the most manipulation vulnerable machines ever, which when done by a player will leave absolutely nothing behind for an average punter, who'll well and truly do his plums in it.

But exactly the same was true for Reds, if you knew the good signs to look for, and had the bankroll and balls to force them out, even on a £25 jackpot they could streak for £125, which once again leaves an absolutely battered machine in your wake which will take regular punters apart, giving them zero entertainment and zero chance to win, which I think is what Racing Dog was objecting to in his first post.

I made some really good money round here on the £70 jackpot Reds, as no one else seemed to be prepared to force the things out (which could cost well over £100, or even £150+ on a bad day), but some Reds could do £210 streaks (which I had on several occasions), can you imagine the carnage for a regular player, walking up to a compensated machine on a 76% payout that's just chucked £210 out at me?......

The truth of the matter is that compensated AWPs are good if you know the tricks/methods/emptiers, and pretty awful for everyone else.

Random machines have done incredibly well in pubs here, and effectively forced the compensated AWP into extinction. Everyone understands random, everyone understands having the same chance to win as anyone else, and that's been a really big draw for them here. People who stopped playing compensated AWPs years ago because they're so fucking bent, are happily playing random games in the pubs again.

What games of gone by did you have involvement in Trance?

Rob

I would be very interested in this also

 

[maxd]

affiliates incoming,no one can ever get a thread in here without same people attacking and insinuating that your a moron for making a post,maybe its just the money train they gotta try to keep going,still to me seems rude

Obviously Casinomeister is not the site you are looking for. Happy trails to you!

 

[JGslots]

The thing there Rob is you're just comparing one range of 'doable' machines with another range of 'doable' machines. Poweplay (Batman Power Up being a clone of course) is one of the most manipulation vulnerable machines ever, which when done by a player will leave absolutely nothing behind for an average punter, who'll well and truly do his plums in it.

But exactly the same was true for Reds, if you knew the good signs to look for, and had the bankroll and balls to force them out, even on a £25 jackpot they could streak for £125, which once again leaves an absolutely battered machine in your wake which will take regular punters apart, giving them zero entertainment and zero chance to win, which I think is what Racing Dog was objecting to in his first post.

I made some really good money round here on the £70 jackpot Reds, as no one else seemed to be prepared to force the things out (which could cost well over £100, or even £150+ on a bad day), but some Reds could do £210 streaks (which I had on several occasions), can you imagine the carnage for a regular player, walking up to a compensated machine on a 76% payout that's just chucked £210 out at me?......

The truth of the matter is that compensated AWPs are good if you know the tricks/methods/emptiers, and pretty awful for everyone else.

Random machines have done incredibly well in pubs here, and effectively forced the compensated AWP into extinction. Everyone understands random, everyone understands having the same chance to win as anyone else, and that's been a really big draw for them here. People who stopped playing compensated AWPs years ago because they're so fucking bent, are happily playing random games in the pubs again.



I would be very interested in this also

Some Red Gamimgs had seperate pots also, you could look to take a notation from the red boxes on the reels and this was separate to the main game, this was on a few Reds at the time.

Sorry, maybe I did home in on Powerplay lol, but yes most playable machines had a separate pot like for the bust, Deal game etc.

Some compensated lo tech games operated with separate pots, one of which was on the FOBT’s, my favourite was Power of Olympus or Golden Scrolls, both excellent very readable games. The base game was 1 Pot and the super game was another pot, the base game was separate pots for each stake. You could tell if the machine was ‘ready’ by simply playing to see how many winlines it was awarding in the super game, if it was only ever awarding 1 line wins then it had no value, if it was offering 2 or more winning lines then was worth a punt.

I made really well from these games, I don’t think they was really targeted by players or professionals, they did remove all these games after around a year though sadly.

They’ve made some absolute corkers on the bookies FOBT’s, from stake manipulation errors, loyalty card exploits, exiting games on repeat chances lol.

Rob

 

[trancemonkey]

View attachment 98924

Just have this image in my head that Tracemonkey was the lead on the design of this game or Screen Play

Pub fruits used to be amazing right up until even very recently with the likes of Powerplay or Batman Power Up.

I always found the good compensated machines to have separate pots, which was nice if you could identify those, for example a bust pot, deal pot or a pot on the power play button.

My most favourable era was defiantly Red Gaming, they made some quality games, which gave clear signs when they could be forced, for example; going through the block or showing lots of red features on low nudge win boards.

What games of gone by did you have involvement in Trance?

Rob

I started at Mazooma, then went to JPM, then Impulse up until Maygay was dissolved and became Revolution and then Inspired. There were only three of us coding at Impulse so I had a hand in most games from Wipeout onwards.

Remember Red Arrow at JPM?

 

[trancemonkey]

View attachment 98924

Just have this image in my head that Tracemonkey was the lead on the design of this game or Screen Play

I'm not old enough... The first game I ever worked on / designed was Disco Inferno at Mazooma...

 

[trancemonkey]

The thing there Rob is you're just comparing one range of 'doable' machines with another range of 'doable' machines. Poweplay (Batman Power Up being a clone of course) is one of the most manipulation vulnerable machines ever, which when done by a player will leave absolutely nothing behind for an average punter, who'll well and truly do his plums in it.

But exactly the same was true for Reds, if you knew the good signs to look for, and had the bankroll and balls to force them out, even on a £25 jackpot they could streak for £125, which once again leaves an absolutely battered machine in your wake which will take regular punters apart, giving them zero entertainment and zero chance to win, which I think is what Racing Dog was objecting to in his first post.

I made some really good money round here on the £70 jackpot Reds, as no one else seemed to be prepared to force the things out (which could cost well over £100, or even £150+ on a bad day), but some Reds could do £210 streaks (which I had on several occasions), can you imagine the carnage for a regular player, walking up to a compensated machine on a 76% payout that's just chucked £210 out at me?......

The truth of the matter is that compensated AWPs are good if you know the tricks/methods/emptiers, and pretty awful for everyone else.

Random machines have done incredibly well in pubs here, and effectively forced the compensated AWP into extinction. Everyone understands random, everyone understands having the same chance to win as anyone else, and that's been a really big draw for them here. People who stopped playing compensated AWPs years ago because they're so fucking bent, are happily playing random games in the pubs again.



I would be very interested in this also

Totally right... The problem is that battered machines mean bad experiences. Which puts normal people off them. We need to try and get back to fun games where you can't do your nuts all the time...

Jackpots are too high. Stakes are too high. RTPs are too low...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I started at Mazooma, then went to JPM, then Impulse up until Maygay was dissolved and became Revolution and then Inspired. There were only three of us coding at Impulse so I had a hand in most games from Wipeout onwards.

Remember Red Arrow at JPM?

I quite liked some of Mazooma's machines, they were a bit different from the norm. (Could go horribly wrong on a force though, they didn't respond well to it.)

Impulse did some great stuff, really good sound and music packages although hobbled a bit by the rather explodey EPOCH tech (not many have survived unfortunately, but emulation has us covered!). I just forced all of them out and hoped to get the streak, I remember Grid Runner doing £25 + three repeats on the upgraded £25 ROMs. (Although 'upgrade' is the wrong way to describe it really, since it killed the gameplay, they were much better at the £15 jackpot IMO.)

I do indeed remember Red Arrow, JPM had to absolutely chip the hell out of that thing!

(You're not the same ex-Impulse guy who left a comment on one of my videos recently are you?...... )

 

[Jono777]

IMO the best times were the £15 JP era, pretty much after that is when things started to go down hill, mainly 25p stakes as the only setting, players would know they stood a good chance of a 'board' or maybe even two from the change from their pint.

That being said my personal best all time memories, stories, enjoyment etc etc were with the £6 - £8 token jackpots, those were proper fruit machines which saw arcades, pubs, motorway SS having their machines played all the time. Profitable for the operators but also gave punters a fair crack of the whip and for the prizes on offer could 'run' to a nice amount when streaking.

As with how I currently feel about the online industry, one thing started the downward spiral - GREED!

 

[JGslots]

I'm not old enough... The first game I ever worked on / designed was Disco Inferno at Mazooma...

Was that before Wet and Wild? The weird card reels were great fun, and WnW had a great sound package, generally fun games.
Mazooma's best machine for me, by far, was Golden Game on £25, with the empty in the first program, even after that, they was
great games, they had multiple pots like repeat pot, Let Em Spin pot, Let Em Spin Bars Pot etc, they were amazing games, when
they got released on £35 jackpot I couldn't believe they had made them even better and more profitable!

Mazooma also made a great game called Monopoly Wheel of Wealth, the streak on the original chip was monstrous,
could go for over £175, which on £35 was insane, these came in both single player and multiplayer formats. They was literally everywhere!

Mazooma also made some great £25 Super Skill Stop method machines also, my favourite being Grand Blaster Cash.

It's such a shame manufacturers cant make excellent games like these anymore.
Recently Novomatic released a £100 Golden Game, which in fairness they have not diverted too far away from the original,
but its hardly in any locations, so just goes to show that analogue machines are a dying breed, with only Bullion Bars and clones
really doing well in the lo tech sector still.

I hope you're going to the Meister meeting Trance or this coming ICE, would be great to chat about machines gone by
and another moan about how the industry has declined due to jackpot and stake increases


Rob

 

[JGslots]

IMO the best times were the £15 JP era, pretty much after that is when things started to go down hill, mainly 25p stakes as the only setting, players would know they stood a good chance of a 'board' or maybe even two from the change from their pint.

That being said my personal best all time memories, stories, enjoyment etc etc were with the £6 - £8 token jackpots, those were proper fruit machines which saw arcades, pubs, motorway SS having their machines played all the time. Profitable for the operators but also gave punters a fair crack of the whip and for the prizes on offer could 'run' to a nice amount when streaking.

As with how I currently feel about the online industry, one thing started the downward spiral - GREED!

Fruit machines of that era were both fun and streaky, I don't remember too much as I'm only 32,
but do remember climbing on a stool and feeding my pocket money into a £2 Jackpot Barcrest Line-Up
in the huge arcade on New Brighton Prom lol.

They must have had rows of cloud 999's, golden ghosts and all sorts of treasures.

Rob

 

[JGslots]

I quite liked some of Mazooma's machines, they were a bit different from the norm. (Could go horribly wrong on a force though, they didn't respond well to it.)

Impulse did some great stuff, really good sound and music packages although hobbled a bit by the rather explodey EPOCH tech (not many have survived unfortunately, but emulation has us covered!). I just forced all of them out and hoped to get the streak, I remember Grid Runner doing £25 + three repeats on the upgraded £25 ROMs. (Although 'upgrade' is the wrong way to describe it really, since it killed the gameplay, they were much better at the £15 jackpot IMO.)

I do indeed remember Red Arrow, JPM had to absolutely chip the hell out of that thing!

(You're not the same ex-Impulse guy who left a comment on one of my videos recently are you?...... )

Impulse made some fantastic games, didn't they get swallowed up by Barcrest in the end and IGT?
They seem to make a few shitty £25 games in the Harrison Cabinet, which finished them off?
Actually that could have been Maygay? King Kerching.

Funny Money was a nice game, which also played well on the £5 setting, It was really fun and totally different to all the others, obviously Grid Runner and Wipe Out had the best sounds

My favourite Impulse was a rare machine called Dam Busters, it was like a clone of London Underground and Homers Meltdown,
was very rare, such an enjoyable machine to play.

Rob

 

[JGslots]

@trancemonkey

When the bookies have their max stakes lowered to £2, do you think that they will look into developing more
CAT C games for their terminals? Max gaming basically made all the Inspired terminal content, but it looks like
they got bought up by Novomatic and now seem to be running as Harlequin Gaming?

They made some really fun and interesting games. Do you think there is space for these games once again,
now the max stake will go down to £2 max? I hope that they do start catering more for the low stakes, more entertainment player.

Inspired have literally not developed anything since, there's a few pub style games in Corals that still appear from time to time, but
looks like Hills and Fred's just don't want to know, Lets Play Darts and the horrid Snake game is only that's really left.

Bring back Golden Balls! hahaha


Rob

 

[dunover]

Best AWP I ever saw was a Bell Fruit one, can't recall the name but it was one which had single, double and triple bars and a 4.80 token JP. You sometimes got hidden messages like a crescent moon overlaying a single bar on the middle reel on the pay line, so you pressed it and something would happen. Bells was the jackpot and sometimes the bell on reel 3 would make a slight shake or noise, press it and the jp would come in. You always got a token or cash 'roll' of 28.80 on it with 2.40 cash repeat and 6 token jackpots on the bounce. Mr. Presto or something it was called.....

 

[Jono777]

Best AWP I ever saw was a Bell Fruit one, can't recall the name but it was one which had single, double and triple bars and a 4.80 token JP. You sometimes got hidden messages like a crescent moon overlaying a single bar on the middle reel on the pay line, so you pressed it and something would happen. Bells was the jackpot and sometimes the bell on reel 3 would make a slight shake or noise, press it and the jp would come in. You always got a token or cash 'roll' of 28.80 on it with 2.40 cash repeat and 6 token jackpots on the bounce. Mr. Presto or something it was called.....

High Point

Silver bells were "2.40 repeater" which could go on forever!

Gold Bells were £4.80 JP and played James Bond - Gold Finger, could be triggered from a reel match from the BFM bell on centre reel as you describe, if out side reels matched.

Triple bars - £2.20, Double £2.00, single £1.60

Two matching bars on reels with overlayed symbol and one bell with over lay underneath, press it for skill cash, similar thing for graphic cash.

Nudge gamble from 1-4, unlimited nudges and a streak made this one of my top 5 also!

 

[JGslots]

High Point

Silver bells were "2.40 repeater" which could go on forever!

Gold Bells were £4.80 JP and played James Bond - Gold Finger, could be triggered from a reel match from the BFM bell on centre reel as you describe, if out side reels matched.

Triple bars - £2.20, Double £2.00, single £1.60

Two matching bars on reels with overlayed symbol and one bell with over lay underneath, press it for skill cash, similar thing for graphic cash.

Nudge gamble from 1-4, unlimited nudges and a streak made this one of my top 5 also!

Was the BFG Party Time similar to this? That seemed to have a barcode type feature I think as well as a big streak?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

High Point

Silver bells were "2.40 repeater" which could go on forever!

Gold Bells were £4.80 JP and played James Bond - Gold Finger, could be triggered from a reel match from the BFM bell on centre reel as you describe, if out side reels matched.

Triple bars - £2.20, Double £2.00, single £1.60

Two matching bars on reels with overlayed symbol and one bell with over lay underneath, press it for skill cash, similar thing for graphic cash.

Nudge gamble from 1-4, unlimited nudges and a streak made this one of my top 5 also!

Available on MFME for free! (Multiple Fruit Machine Emulator.)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Was the BFG Party Time similar to this? That seemed to have a barcode type feature I think as well as a big streak?

Yep, Surprise Surprize and Party Time were crazy streakers, I've done a video about them.

 

[Jono777]

lol @ChopleyIOM - I've scoured the net for half a bloody hour looking for a simple image

Really gonna have to get you a USB key over asap

 

[Mark_32Red (retired acct)]

I started my interest in slots when I met a ‘professional’ slot player in a pub near college. I couldn’t understand why he kept gambling to lose, higher than 11 when 1 away from the jackpot, taking £1 when he could take £15 etc. The games were all the same maths I believe, Barcrest games The Italian Job and another rebrand I forget.

This chap took me on his rounds in Liverpool. He had pubs he was allowed to play and others that belonged to other players. The risk of being caught on someone else’s patch wasn’t worth it he told me.

Long story short I managed to make a few quid from them for a year or so, they were then ‘chipped’ to stop the forced play, sadly I wasn’t clever enough to know which ones had been upgraded and my short period of profit soon became a loss.

When I’m back in the UK I still find time to lose £20 or £40, but like the OP I don’t get the excitement from the higher jackpot games any more. Gone are the days where you’d be playing looking over your shoulder as you knew as soon as you went for change some bugger would try and steal your machine!

Great thread and brought up some great memories.

Mark

 

[Jono777]

Was the BFG Party Time similar to this? That seemed to have a barcode type feature I think as well as a big streak?

Sorry mate missed this 1st time around!

Unsure, only party times that spring to mind are those annoying Astra things that JD empties

 

[trancemonkey]

I quite liked some of Mazooma's machines, they were a bit different from the norm. (Could go horribly wrong on a force though, they didn't respond well to it.)

Impulse did some great stuff, really good sound and music packages although hobbled a bit by the rather explodey EPOCH tech (not many have survived unfortunately, but emulation has us covered!). I just forced all of them out and hoped to get the streak, I remember Grid Runner doing £25 + three repeats on the upgraded £25 ROMs. (Although 'upgrade' is the wrong way to describe it really, since it killed the gameplay, they were much better at the £15 jackpot IMO.)

I do indeed remember Red Arrow, JPM had to absolutely chip the hell out of that thing!

(You're not the same ex-Impulse guy who left a comment on one of my videos recently are you?...... )

Indeed I am

We had to take the numbering out of Red Arrow and other games because the operators forced our hand...