RTG - Capping Max Wins

[Papa-ya]

I have been thinking and bugged about the capping the max wins on RTG games, ever since winning, finally, the 5 expanding wilds on the Count Spectacular slot.
Recently I had a win of 4 Counts on the reels 1-4, paid out $255 at 1 cent per line, with the misc items on reel 5. Then later still playing and paying for all lines at 1 cent per line, I get 5 expanding Counts covering all lines and it only paid 2x or a tad less than 4 Counts, for a $500 win at 25 cent wager.
According to the pay table the first page shows 5 counts paying out at 10,000 coin, I assume this means per winning lines. At 1 cent per line the payout would be $100 per line x 25 lines. Instead the game is set to pay out for only 5 lines, even though the player has wagered on all 25 lines.
Now on page 2 there is this second rule that caps a players win, thus only paying the player for 5 lines despite the fact the player is paying for 25 lines. I can understand the second rule to a point, but feel it is written unfairly to the average player.
If the rule is written to keep high rollers from breaking the house then it should state a max payout of say, $50k will be awarded. Thus the low roller can still enjoy the usually once in a lifetime hit of 5 expanding wilds and be paid accordingly for the amount wagered, instead of being penalized for the fear of high rollers breaking the bank.
I feel this is an unfair practice if a player has bought 25 lines and is only paid for 5. What is the point of having a game with expanding wilds if a player will never be able to acheive the true value of it?
I have questioned the casino about this and sent them my screenshot, they have forwarded this to RTG cs, hope this can be resolved for all players that have been capped.
RTG really needs to rethink this ruling as it is more of a dissapointment, than a draw, in the desire to continue to play with their software. Rules like this leaves a player feeling the expanding wilds are a false draw to lure players in to make big wagers for that ultimate 5 wild win.

I would have liked to have added a poll, but don't know how to do this, regarding is it fair or not.

 

[Simmo!]

I agree it's a silly rule, especially when you consider that a player playing at 25c can still win a progressive jackpot of thousands. In light of that it doesn't make any sense to have a 4000/5000 x linebet max payout IMO.

 

[Lucky Loser]

If you want to get the max payout on this slot or others like it you should play 5 lines x 5c instead. Had you done this it would have paid $2500.

 

[Nifty29]

If you want to get the max payout on this slot or others like it you should play 5 lines x 5c instead. Had you done this it would have paid $2500.

Yes, although you can expect a much higher variance...and given how often one actually is affected by the max payout cap, it probably isn't worth it for that purpose alone.

 

[Papa-ya]

I had played it quite a bit at less lines, but the wins mostly hit on the lines not covered, thus rendering your time and money spent for the most part useless.
To play at the lessor lines for a higher wager, per line is feasable when only playing for the 5 reels of expanding wilds, but the question remains if it would ever happen, as this hit is rare and hard to come by.
Because it is a hard win to get, this is why I think paying only 5 lines for the ultimate win that every gambler plays/hopes for, is more of a penalty than a prize, to the average player.

 

[KasinoKing]

I think you are right about how much it should have paid, and I totally 100% agree with everything you said about this.

With previous slots this hasn't been such a big issue, as the cap was normally only reached when getting a sequence of good wins during free-spins, or getting 100's of free-spins, or both.

But with this particular slot the rule is blatantly unfair as players can NEVER achieve the advertised pay-out.

I wish I could be optimistic about getting RTG to recognise this injustice and do something about it, but realistically I doubt anything will be done.

KK

 

[nisosbar]

While I still play on RTG casinos, this is just one in a list of reasons why, all else being equal, RTG does not compare well to other softwares, IMHO.

 

[Papa-ya]

Just received this email, not sure I understand it.


Dear XXXXX,

We write with reference to your query regarding the above mentioned game.

The investigation carried out shows that you were paid $499.85 on the Re-spin feature. The payout, plus the $0.15 won in the original spin equal $500, which is the maximum amount you can win on a single spin. This maximum is set for all of RTG's slots at 50,000 the amount bet per line. It is true that the 5 Counts would have been a winner on all 25 lines, however the rules
state that the maximum win per paid spin is 50,000 bet per line.

We hope the above information has been helpful. Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.


Sincerely

Latifa

 

[Papa-ya]

If you want to get the max payout on this slot or others like it you should play 5 lines x 5c instead. Had you done this it would have paid $2500.

Lesson learned, from now on, I'm playing this type of game your way.

 

[colly]

Lesson learned, from now on, I'm playing this type of game your way.

Lesson learned for me as well-just wont play a slot where you cannot win the advertised payout. Very shonky

 

[Papa-ya]

The investigation carried out shows that you were paid $499.85 on the Re-spin feature. The payout, plus the $0.15 won in the original spin equal $500, which is the maximum amount you can win on a single spin. This maximum is set for all of RTG's slots at 50,000 the amount bet per line. It is true that the 5 Counts would have been a winner on all 25 lines, however the rules
state that the maximum win per paid spin is 50,000 bet per line.




I am a bit surprised that more players of RTG aren't a little bit upset by the above rule and here's why I say this.

When I won the feature, I was playing 25 cent wager at 1 cent per line, covering all lines. I opted for the re-spin feature as I always do. The feature win was $0.15 before the four re-spins commenced. On the last spin I won the coveted win of 5 counts that are expanding wilds that cover all paylines. My win for that single hit was not even $500, but was docked the 15 cents I won at the start of the feature.

So now I'm thinking, they have on page 1 of the payout rules the 5 counts pay 10,000x, meaning it should have paid $100 per line for 25 lines.

Then at the very bottom of page 2, there is the over ruling rule of the maximum payout being 50,000 coins x line bet and it does not specify that the re-spin feature only counts as one spin, instead of 4.

So had I won say $125 on the first spin, then hit the 5 expanding wilds that covered the entire screen, all paylines, would have only paid $375 on the additional feature spins. Meaning that you are not even being paid the coveted win of the highest value if you are in a feature as the feature counts entirely as I spin. So for every amount you win before hitting the highest win the games advertises, your winning amount will be docked for the previous wins during the feature.

Additionally, the coveted win we all hope for one day, will only pay the equivalant of 5 lines, no matter the amount of lines you have paid for.

I have seen several players screenshots with capped wins like this, am I the only player dissatisfied with this type of rule manipulation? Because for the majority of players, you may not get this hit but once in years on average.

 

[Simmo!]

In the UK the laws for land-based currently cap at £4000 and like this slot, it is possible to win more. In fact I saw it happen recently at a Gala casino where a guy got 5 scatters in the free spins for more than £4k but that was all he could get paid.

However, in an online environment where there is no capping law, I think it's very poor that RTG themselves impose a maximum payout on a slot that can pay more than that. It's also totally illogical when you consider that the RJ's can easily exceed 50,000 x line bet and DO get paid.

Not sure what can be done about it though except to not play those games. It is effectively lowering the RTP.

 

[nisosbar]

However, in an online environment where there is no capping law, I think it's very poor that RTG themselves impose a maximum payout on a slot that can pay more than that. It's also totally illogical when you consider that the RJ's can easily exceed 50,000 x line bet and DO get paid.

Not sure what can be done about it though except to not play those games. It is effectively lowering the RTP.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[petro]

Capping the max win will decrease the RTP even further.
I wouldn't play at any RTG casinos that practice this.

In the UK the laws for land-based currently cap at £4000.

Here in Australia our slots have a cap of $5000 per spin.

 

[lauram]

After reading this, I now have second thoughts on playing rtg any longer.
I deposit daily and have noticed over the past while how tight the games have gotten. Mind you I play at 2 dollar stakes so the free spins are less often.
But here is what upset me from seeing you screen shot. They only gave you 500 total. At mg on a dollar fifty bet I hit all the wilds on the new santa slot and won 14k. As a player you wait for that moment to hit all the wilds across the board. Then find out your games is capped. Past few months I have had some nice wins on rtg but after reading this I am done.

 

[De Beuker]

The investigation carried out shows that you were paid $499.85 on the Re-spin feature. The payout, plus the $0.15 won in the original spin equal $500, which is the maximum amount you can win on a single spin. This maximum is set for all of RTG's slots at 50,000 the amount bet per line. It is true that the 5 Counts would have been a winner on all 25 lines, however the rules
state that the maximum win per paid spin is 50,000 bet per line.




I am a bit surprised that more players of RTG aren't a little bit upset by the above rule and here's why I say this.

When I won the feature, I was playing 25 cent wager at 1 cent per line, covering all lines. I opted for the re-spin feature as I always do. The feature win was $0.15 before the four re-spins commenced. On the last spin I won the coveted win of 5 counts that are expanding wilds that cover all paylines. My win for that single hit was not even $500, but was docked the 15 cents I won at the start of the feature.

So now I'm thinking, they have on page 1 of the payout rules the 5 counts pay 10,000x, meaning it should have paid $100 per line for 25 lines.

Then at the very bottom of page 2, there is the over ruling rule of the maximum payout being 50,000 coins x line bet and it does not specify that the re-spin feature only counts as one spin, instead of 4.

So had I won say $125 on the first spin, then hit the 5 expanding wilds that covered the entire screen, all paylines, would have only paid $375 on the additional feature spins. Meaning that you are not even being paid the coveted win of the highest value if you are in a feature as the feature counts entirely as I spin. So for every amount you win before hitting the highest win the games advertises, your winning amount will be docked for the previous wins during the feature.

Additionally, the coveted win we all hope for one day, will only pay the equivalant of 5 lines, no matter the amount of lines you have paid for.

I have seen several players screenshots with capped wins like this, am I the only player dissatisfied with this type of rule manipulation? Because for the majority of players, you may not get this hit but once in years on average.

No, you're not the only one.
I never experienced a max. payout, but I've seen a few screenies..

And it really sucks that a freespinround counts as a single spin, I fully agree with you on that one.
This especially hurts when you play Raindance and hit that elusive 5 scatters for 100 free spins.
Each retrigger, no matter if its 3, 4 or 5 scatters adds another 100.
I've seen a screenshot once from someone who had reached the max with more than 450 free spins left on the counter!
Its in the WSS thread somewhere, but its 2 or 3 years old, hard to dig up I'm afraid.


But Simmo, are you sure it influences the advertised RTP of a game?
They dont take the caps into the calculation somehow?
I think we should summon the DogBoy!

Arent those new slots like that 88 line Tiger slot heavily underpaying with a max. win of 582x total bet?

 

[chayton]

I've seen a screenshot once from someone who had reached the max with more than 450 free spins left on the counter!
Its in the WSS thread somewhere, but its 2 or 3 years old, hard to dig up I'm afraid.

I think it was RobWin who got that one...

 

[De Beuker]

I think it was RobWin who got that one...

Yes, thats what I thought too, either RobWin or Winbig.
But one of the Win dudes for sure!

 

[Repro]

In the UK the laws for land-based currently cap at £4000 and like this slot, it is possible to win more. In fact I saw it happen recently at a Gala casino where a guy got 5 scatters in the free spins for more than £4k but that was all he could get paid.

However, in an online environment where there is no capping law, I think it's very poor that RTG themselves impose a maximum payout on a slot that can pay more than that. It's also totally illogical when you consider that the RJ's can easily exceed 50,000 x line bet and DO get paid.

Not sure what can be done about it though except to not play those games. It is effectively lowering the RTP.

I still don't see why any winnings on slots -land based or online- would be capped. So much for gamefairness...

 

[Papa-ya]

In the UK the laws for land-based currently cap at £4000 and like this slot, it is possible to win more. In fact I saw it happen recently at a Gala casino where a guy got 5 scatters in the free spins for more than £4k but that was all he could get paid.

However, in an online environment where there is no capping law, I think it's very poor that RTG themselves impose a maximum payout on a slot that can pay more than that. It's also totally illogical when you consider that the RJ's can easily exceed 50,000 x line bet and DO get paid.

Not sure what can be done about it though except to not play those games. It is effectively lowering the RTP.

If players don't speak out then casinos rule makers will think everyone is okay with such rules. Even if not much can be done, they should at least know how their cash cows feel.

I am glad to see Simmo taking interest in this thread and would like to see others that have a direct line to RTG, maybe voice the feelings about this subject.

RTG could have just said max payout will not be over $25k or whatever and not crippled the entire playing community with rules that are more damaging to the goodwill between players and casinos.

There is a gross injustice in enticing players with expanding wilds, 88 lines and so on, when they know they will not pay what the games are designed for and it's the design of these features that draw us in.

 

[Papa-ya]

I still don't see why any winnings on slots -land based or online- would be capped. So much for gamefairness...

The only justification of this tactic that I can see, is that a whale could own them. But the fact is, most of the playing community are not whales, yet we are penalized because of fear of whales.

 

[Repro]

The only justification of this tactic that I can see, is that a whale could own them. But the fact is, most of the playing community are not whales, yet we are penalized because of fear of whales.

These hits only happen "once in a blue moon". There is just no way it can become a problem if someone hits it, because that's how the slot is created !

Also i found it utterly misleading that the casino advertises with a much larger (possible) payout

 

[Repro]

These hits only happen "once in a blue moon". There is just no way it can become a problem if someone hits it, because that's how the slot is created !

Also i found it utterly misleading that the casino advertises with a much larger (possible) payout

This all looks a bit like you won the state lotery worth 25 million, but they tell you they'll only pay you 100K because it's "capped"...

 

[zap987]

They can't cap it at a set $ amount because that would mean you would get a lower RTP the higher you bet, that would definitely be unfair.

Of course noone knows the actual RTP of the slots but most likely the win cap is factored in, I'm sure they can remove the cap but they would also have to change the payouts or make the big hits less frequent.

 

[SlotsLover]

rtp

They can't cap it at a set $ amount because that would mean you would get a lower RTP the higher you bet, that would definitely be unfair.

Of course noone knows the actual RTP of the slots but most likely the win cap is factored in, I'm sure they can remove the cap but they would also have to change the payouts or make the big hits less frequent.

But if it's factored in, then would not the rtp be higher if one played less lines? They would have approx the same chance to hit the cap (on a game with expanding wilds) and many more spins to hit it with.

 

[Papa-ya]

They can't cap it at a set $ amount because that would mean you would get a lower RTP the higher you bet, that would definitely be unfair.

Of course noone knows the actual RTP of the slots but most likely the win cap is factored in, I'm sure they can remove the cap but they would also have to change the payouts or make the big hits less frequent.

If players look at the second rule page, you will find this 50,000 x line bet max award on every game.
I suppose it doesn't matter much to those who wager higher, because you can get a bigger payout the more you wager, but are still capped at 50,000x your bet.
For the 1 or 2 cent player though, it is very dissapointing, especially considering the potential behind offering an expanding wilds game or increased line games.

This rule however doesn't just apply to features, it applies to all spins. But getting it during a re-spin feature, is really a dissapointment, since all 4 re-spins count as one spin. So if you are playing at 50 cents and hit a couple hudred on your first 3 re-spins and then on one re-spin hit the expanding wilds, you will only be paid $1,000, not $1,200 for all spins, because the 50,000x line bet is the max award for a single spin.

But as one poster pointed out, if you play only 5 lines at 5 cents per line, still playing 25 cents, the payout then would have been $2,500.

Most players are more comfortable playing with all lines covered, just as I was. I tried the 5 line wagering and found that my wins I did get were better, but seeing the wins I was missing gave me cold feet for playing this way.

So playing it safe and covering all lines, you risk not getting the full win we all hope for, playing it at the 5 lines can cost you a lot of wins you could have had, making this playing style hard to get used to.

Even if nothing can come of this, I at least hope to make more players aware of this RTG rule, so that when they one day hit a win like this maybe they won't be as dissapointed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It seems this cap is there to allow them to "big up" the possibilities of a MASSIVE win in the rules.

Rather than use a cap, they should have designed the paytables so that there would be no need for such a cap. This WOULD raise the RTP since there would be no more "skimming off the top" from the rare big wins, and players would get MORE from the higher probability wins, since designing the paytables to avoid the need for the cap would lower the variance.

I do not see MGS slots having this rule, and there ARE rare alignments that would produce wins well in excess of the level of the RTG cap, they happen, and get paid in FULL.

 

[phantom27]

what you hit is so rare and i don't think it will happen again soon. getting 4count and 5count? i did so many spins and i just couldn't get 4count.

last week i was pounding this game at 2.00 a spin (working on a 6250 wr with 250), i got 24 spins at one time and i got only 181 at the end. i'd be very, very happy to get a capped-win, lol.

so play all lines so we can have more fun.

 

[Simmo!]

So playing it safe and covering all lines, you risk not getting the full win we all hope for, playing it at the 5 lines can cost you a lot of wins you could have had, making this playing style hard to get used to.

You are effectively increasing the variance of the slot but increasing the RTP at the same time. It's not for the faint hearted but long-term you will lose a *little* less this way. Actually, depending on how the Random Jackpots work (we are lead to believe the more you bet the higher your chances) you might actually be offsetting the benefit of increased RTP by reducing your chances of an RJ. I say *might*.

 

[Papa-ya]

Okay, I am working on a strategy on this game and have been trying the decreased lines. I am playing 7 lines at 10 cents per line and am actually having a much better experience than I would playing all 25.

At $40 deposits, playing $2.50 per wager is not feasable for me, but wagering on all lines I have time and time again, been on that continuous downward spiral till I have been drained, because at 1 cent per line, the majority of the wins are not significant enough to build your balance, unless you get lucky enough to get a 3-4 Count win.

On 1 cent bet per line, the wins are mostly the small stuff, lanterns, two ghouls or 2 wolves. A 5 lantern win would pay $1.00.

Playing at the 7 lines at 10 cents per line, the 5 lantern win nets $10, which happens fairly frequently and kept bumping my balance back up.

Then I hit a 4 Count spin which netted a nice win of $181, so with shakey apprehension I will try this for awhile.

As for the RJ, I don't count on winning one of those, but it would be interesting to know how it is effected by playing lessor lines. For other slots without this expanding feature, I wouldn't play less lines, but for the penny player I'm seriously starting to think my RTP is better on this slot at less lines rather than covering them all. As the one poster stated, had I been playing 5 lines at 5 cents when I hit the 5 Counts, then my payout would have been the $2,500 instead of the $500.

But less paylines can make one very squimish.

 

[Papa-ya]

Guess I'm done with all RTG. Trying to play around their rule, is just to ridiculous and frustrating.

RTG needs to get their act together and have only one paytable rule and be upfront from the get go, not have the overlooked rule tucked away at the very bottom of page 2, where a player won't realize this exists until they get the hit that doesn't pay what they were led to believe.

So, not wasting my money or time with them anymore.

 

[Repro]

Guess I'm done with all RTG. Trying to play around their rule, is just to ridiculous and frustrating.

RTG needs to get their act together and have only one paytable rule and be upfront from the get go, not have the overlooked rule tucked away at the very bottom of page 2, where a player won't realize this exists until they get the hit that doesn't pay what they were led to believe.

So, not wasting my money or time with them anymore.

I'm also not very keen of RTG. I only like Penguin Power

Still wanted to see what all the fuzz was actually about, so i tried the Count

Made a $20 deposit and started playing at 25 lines / $0.01. Very much playtime, but eventually the money was gone.

Made a second $20 deposit and played 5 lines / $0.05. When i was up to $40 (ater a looooooooong time) i raised it to $0.10. Made a cashout for $150

I liked playing the second deposit a lot more, not only because of the payout, but it was just more fun playing when you get higher payouts on the lines. Never had more than 3 counts though

Frank

 

[Papa-ya]

I'm also not very keen of RTG. I only like Penguin Power

Still wanted to see what all the fuzz was actually about, so i tried the Count

Made a $20 deposit and started playing at 25 lines / $0.01. Very much playtime, but eventually the money was gone.

Made a second $20 deposit and played 5 lines / $0.05. When i was up to $40 (ater a looooooooong time) i raised it to $0.10. Made a cashout for $150

I liked playing the second deposit a lot more, not only because of the payout, but it was just more fun playing when you get higher payouts on the lines. Never had more than 3 counts though

Frank

Good for you Repro, glad you made a cashout. For this game, I really do think playing the lessor lines does make for a better experience for the higher line payouts you are playing and length of time you can manage to play.
I have hit 3-4 Counts several times, because I concentrated on only playing that game, so spent a lot of time on it. Most of my play had been on covering all lines and the majority of the wins were so diluted, the play dwindled at a steady pace on average.
Playing the lessor lines as was suggested by another poster here, for this game does seem to work better on the average.
As Simmo said however, this style of play is not for the faint of heart, because you see a lot of missed wins as well, but when you play it long enough, you see most of the missed wins at a low wager would not have been significant enough to worry about.
On my screenshot though, playing the full 25 lines lines and hitting the 4 Counts had a better payout than the lessor lines did, but had I been playing the higher wager on the lessor lines when I hit the 5 Counts, I would not be as bummed out today as I am.
So the 5 Count win at the lessor line, higher wager is the way to go, to acheive the advertised payout.

 

[nisosbar]

If the stated RTP on Count Dracula is calculated on the basis of 25 lines played and ALSO with a maxed cap at 50,000x line bet, then isn't it an unavoidable fact (in light of the expanding wilds) that playing only 5 lines will effectively raise the stated RTP a bit further? (If you know what I am asking but can explain it more simply than I can, please feel free.)

 

[felicie]

While I still play on RTG casinos, this is just one in a list of reasons why, all else being equal, RTG does not compare well to other softwares, IMHO.

I don't and wont pretend to understand all the math you all put into this but the bottom line for me is are they intentionally screwing us by lying about the payout? $500 on a .25 bet seems acceptable but not if it should have been $2500. I played the count a couple of nights ago and everytime he popped up (the count) I got nothing and that is unacceptable. why have him pop up at all. Maybe I should just stick to the old l and 3 line slots.

 

[Papa-ya]

After mulling this over and scrutinizing the rules, I have come to a understanding about what 5 counts actually means. When a player gets 4 Counts that covers 4 reels and one reel with misc symbols, the wilds pays all lines covered.

What I didn't realize is the first page rule that I hadn't noticed before, that the Counts, count as one on each reel, so the 5 expanding wilds will always be equivalent to only a 5 line payout and not 25. The Counts will only pay all lines wagered on, if it is 4 Counts or less.

So this leaves me a bit disheartened and disenchanted for my naivety, because the only way of getting a big win on Count Spectacular for 5 wilds, is to wager higher or play less lines at a higher than 1 cent wager.

I guess it comes down to, from discussing this, is that with some games, you have to use a different strategy in order to get the value you are expecting. But having the counts pop up and not paying happens just the same as it does with any game, but persistance can pay off and knowing the quirks of the rules can help to make for a better game, rather than a dissapointing one.

My dissapointment is just the fact that I had not realized this until after hitting the 5 Count win, had I known the way the payout really works, I could have had a hell of a payday. So I just hope this thread can help others.

Ah well, live and learn.

 

[Repro]

What I didn't realize is the first page rule that I hadn't noticed before, that the Counts, count as one on each reel, so the 5 expanding wilds will always be equivalent to only a 5 line payout and not 25. The Counts will only pay all lines wagered on, if it is 4 Counts or less.

Actually... I think this rule is only meant for the scattersymbols...

 

[Papa-ya]

I thought I had posted the rule pages for this game, so I will add them now. You're correct, it does only say the Count counts once for Scatters.