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Withdrawal held due to SOW

S

SKH05

Newbie member
Joined
Dec 12, 2020
Location
UK
Hi

Was wondering if anyone could shed any light or assist me.

I deposited a total of £12k across 2 sites under the same parent company. Was asked to provide source of wealth as I had exceeded the threshold of 10k total deposits. My £500 withdrawal was refused until I could provide the requested documentation. I provided bank statements and payslips etc but was asked to also provide payslips and bank statements of my friend who has transferred money in to my account, she has refused to provide this understandably and therefore I'm stuck.
I read on the gambling commission terms that if self exclusion was requested then the balance in the account has to be paid so requested self exclusion but still they have refused to pay the £500. I've also queried with the casino why if the threshold is 10k deposits was I allowed to deposit a further 2k before SOW was requested, obviously had I known that I would be unable to provide the requested documents I would not have deposited the additional 2k.

Wondering if anyone has had this same issue and had any resolution?

Thanks
 
I have a feeling I know, but which site is it?
It gets complicated when a SoW is in play, and probably more so now you have self excluded.
Would need to read the T&C's on the site first before being able to comment in any further detail.

The 10k limit is operator set, and is quite likely not acted on until it is manually looked at. You quite possibly hit the £10k limit then deposited another £2k before it was picked up. As that limit isn't part of their LCCP, then it's perfectly fine to do that.

Have you sent the rep a PM, he might be able to help you, although if it's a SoW for AML purposes, then he might not be able to.
 
Hi,

It's no bonus casino and fun casino. The deposits were across both. This all happened back in July, but after continued discussion and advising I couldn't get the required documents it was still a no. They said the documents are required for AML but from my bank statements it was clear I had a gambling problem and was overdrawn etc definitely no laundering!. Anyway I read somehwere recently that is self exclusion was requested then the balance is paid so contacted the casino again and asked what the balance of the account was(as I am unable to access the account, they placed a block on it) , they still said the balance is £500. I requested the SE but was advised that the documents would still be required in order to receive the money.

Thanks
 
Have you contacted @L&L-Jan like I suggested? Didn't want to tag him initially as you hadn't named the casino, although I had guessed who it was.
 
gonzo fonso said:
SOW or not,if you have won they still have to pay your winnings,tell them to close your account and you will get your winnings quicker
Click to expand...

I had an issue with casinolab. Despite verifying, my two withdrawls just sat pending for nearly three weeks. No replies from them via email. Live chat nobody ever responded.
I closed the account through settings on my account. My winnings were in my account within 24hrs of closing it down.
I'd only joined in november.
Sticking to two trusted casinos i have had no issues with now.
Hugely put me off joining another new casino.
 
Eliot85 said:
is it Casumo? i was reading a thread on Cg. they wonted to know 4 years back what she bought and transfer
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No this is regarding no bonus casino, just don't understand how they can ask for 3rd party information which is obviously out of my control.
 
Can somone answer this.. What about if, let say i play and deposit 20k euro then i win 30k and want to cashout. the casino ask for sow documents and there si what they would call a ”problemgambler” with many deposits. Will they then close my acount and confiscate the money? For ”protekt”me?... i dont understand hehe
 
Just informed OP with the break down of the situation. Can't disclose it here as it holds personal information which I cant share in public.
 
SKH05 said:
No this is regarding no bonus casino, just don't understand how they can ask for 3rd party information which is obviously out of my control.
Click to expand...

Hard to say without seeing your bank statement and transactin histories etc... but if your gambling look to be funded by 3rd party, origin of these funds, why these ended up to be used for your gambling, are thesee loans/salaries/gifts or what. If there is remarkable amount of 3rd party transactions you used for gambling, it also question who actually is gambling or are you doing it behalf of somebody else and loads of other possible questions which would need to be answerred to satisfy ML obligations.
 
Slottery said:
Hard to say without seeing your bank statement and transactin histories etc... but if your gambling look to be funded by 3rd party, origin of these funds, why these ended up to be used for your gambling, are thesee loans/salaries/gifts or what. If there is remarkable amount of 3rd party transactions you used for gambling, it also question who actually is gambling or are you doing it behalf of somebody else and loads of other possible questions which would need to be answerred to satisfy ML obligations.
Click to expand...
But they can't expect third party bank statements.
I won £50 from your comps (thank you), how would you feel if next week I pm you asking for your last 6 months bank statements and payslips as a casino is asking for your SoW? Would you send them to me? Now you might as you understand what they are for, how about if you had to ask one of your mates who doesn't gamble, because he sent you £20 last week for his share of a night out or something?
 
Slottery said:
Hard to say without seeing your bank statement and transactin histories etc... but if your gambling look to be funded by 3rd party, origin of these funds, why these ended up to be used for your gambling, are thesee loans/salaries/gifts or what. If there is remarkable amount of 3rd party transactions you used for gambling, it also question who actually is gambling or are you doing it behalf of somebody else and loads of other possible questions which would need to be answerred to satisfy ML obligations
Click to expand...
Yeah I get this, I unfortunately can't provide what they are requesting as it's not within my control and I understand why a 3rd party wouldn't want to provide personal information. I can see why the casino are requesting the documents, my accounts basically show me being 'bailed out' by friends and family due to my gambling problem. Doesn't look like I'll be getting the money in this instance but I appreciate the assistance.
 
colinsunderland said:
But they can't expect third party bank statements.
I won £50 from your comps (thank you), how would you feel if next week I pm you asking for your last 6 months bank statements and payslips as a casino is asking for your SoW? Would you send them to me? Now you might as you understand what they are for, how about if you had to ask one of your mates who doesn't gamble, because he sent you £20 last week for his share of a night out or something?
Click to expand...

I guess we should be ok if i just tell why i sent you money and if they really want, i can provide some proof of where i possible have got money but these are pretty much case by case. For £50 i don't believe nobody need 6 months statement, if there are more transfers and especially if these are made to fund remarkable amounts of OP:s gambling (OP mentioned overdrafts etc... so with that information could imagine that when getting transfers, using them for gambling) it's already much different than if somebody transfer you £50 and majority of your funds are from other sources.

It just can't really be ignored if there are continuing transactions from 3rd parties and deposits after that, that already looks like money laundering when somebody just keep donating money for you. Usually in SOW it's point that you can show origin of these funds used to gamble, everybody have some transactions from 3rd parties and have never heard that some casino would ask proof of one single £50 (unless it's used right away to deposit and use SUB which then looks quite clear that you play behalf of somebody else).
 
colinsunderland said:
But they can't expect third party bank statements.
I won £50 from your comps (thank you), how would you feel if next week I pm you asking for your last 6 months bank statements and payslips as a casino is asking for your SoW? Would you send them to me? Now you might as you understand what they are for, how about if you had to ask one of your mates who doesn't gamble, because he sent you £20 last week for his share of a night out or something?
Click to expand...

If a Casino finds out that a customer received as an example £10,000 deposited from 3rd party which they use to gamble with, that is considered as high risk and the casino would need to get proper information/documentation on that transaction to continue the business relationship. If not satisfied, report to NCA and they would inform how to proceed if balance was still available on customers account.
 
Slottery said:
(unless it's used right away to deposit and use SUB which then looks quite clear that you play behalf of somebody else).
Click to expand...
And what's wrong in playing for someone else? Provided that person is of age and isn't excluded?

With skype, discord etc it's easy to stream a slot stream to your friend having gone 50/50 on the deposit. I've known of this sort of stuff going on for ages (Twitch etc). Doesn't make you a launderer, nor somebody with a gambling issue!

I think we have to look at this sensibly, it's a fun pastime and it should be just that.
 
Last edited:
Mr Wild said:
If a Casino finds out that a customer received as an example £10,000 deposited from 3rd party which they use to gamble with, that is considered as high risk and the casino would need to get proper information/documentation on that transaction to continue the business relationship. If not satisfied, report to NCA and they would inform how to proceed if balance was still available on customers account.
Click to expand...
I don't dispute that, but at the same time you can't demand someone provide a third parties personal information. How does the GDPR work in that situation? Unless you have express permission from the third party, which you won't have if someone gets their friend's bank statements and sends them to you, you cannot legally process or store their information, which clearly you are doing if they are supplied as part of a SoW package.

I've seen cases where casinos have requested this sort of information for a one off £100 transaction, which is ridiculous, that isn't suspicious at all.
 
colinsunderland said:
I don't dispute that, but at the same time you can't demand someone provide a third parties personal information. How does the GDPR work in that situation? Unless you have express permission from the third party, which you won't have if someone gets their friend's bank statements and sends them to you, you cannot legally process or store their information, which clearly you are doing if they are supplied as part of a SoW package.

I've seen cases where casinos have requested this sort of information for a one off £100 transaction, which is ridiculous, that isn't suspicious at all.
Click to expand...
No you are right, you cant give that without the 3rd party's consent, so you get into a tricky situation. But in reality its simple, you dont need to supply anything to an online casino, they are just forced to terminate the business relationship with you and either refund you your balance or send the case over to NCA to decide. In rare cases when NCA decides that payment is not allowed to be refunded, usually its donated to charity with approval from NCA or held to be paid back to right the owner of the funds.

Also to point out. The casino itself is never allowed to keep the funds. So they have nothing to gain.
 
Mr_Slot5 said:
And what's wrong in playing for someone else? Provided that person is of age and isn't excluded?

With skype, discord etc it's easy to stream a slot stream to your friend having gone 50/50 on the deposit. I've known of this sort of stuff going on for ages (Twitch etc). Doesn't make you a launderer, nor somebody with a gambling issue!

I think we have to look at this sensibly, it's a fun pastime and it should be just that.
Click to expand...
Well technically you would breach a bunch of terms....

The problem is that using 3rd party funds is not illegal per se, but we need to understand the source of those funds. We need to make sure and have enough evidence the funds are clean.

We had the same with Gaz237 - given that it was mentioned here in a topic. He provided all we requested but we noticed a transfer from a 3rd party which most likely was used on the site to gamble. However, he managed to proof easily where the funds came from. Problem sorted. Account fully verified.
 
Mr Wild said:
No you are right, you cant give that without the 3rd party's consent, so you get into a tricky situation. But in reality its simple, you dont need to supply anything to an online casino, they are just forced to terminate the business relationship with you and either refund you your balance or send the case over to NCA to decide. In rare cases when NCA decides that payment is not allowed to be refunded, usually its donated to charity with approval from NCA or held to be paid back to right the owner of the funds.
Click to expand...
Surely it's better from a business perspective then to employ a stance like the major UK bookie sites do. Utilise a lot more electronic verification methods and focus on 'clear and obvious' patterns of foul play. That way you're not driving away genuine players whilst still performing due diligence?
 
Mr_Slot5 said:
Surely it's better from a business perspective then to employ a stance like the major UK bookie sites do. Utilise a lot more electronic verification methods and focus on 'clear and obvious' patterns of foul play. That way you're not driving away genuine players whilst still performing due diligence?
Click to expand...

Well that is not enough accordingly to the regulation for casino.

But please be aware, Sportsbook and Casinos don't have same AML regulation. A sportsbook don't need to collect SOW.
Im not sure exactly how they get around it, but I guess if you do 2 companies, one for sports and one for casino with different licenses. You take all deposits on the Sportsbook company and then you have two balances, then you do internal transfer to fund your casino balance. That would in theory reduce the risk and SOW wouldn't be required.

It can also be so that they simply will accept any fine coming their way to avoid all hassle with customers. The UKGC fines are very small compared to what the big bookies are making.
Like William Hill was fined a few years back for AML failings.
 
Mr_Slot5 said:
And what's wrong in playing for someone else? Provided that person is of age and isn't excluded?

With skype, discord etc it's easy to stream a slot stream to your friend having gone 50/50 on the deposit. I've known of this sort of stuff going on for ages (Twitch etc). Doesn't make you a launderer, nor somebody with a gambling issue!

I think we have to look at this sensibly, it's a fun pastime and it should be just that.
Click to expand...

I think you find reason already from many casinos T&C:s that you should play with your own money and details and nothing else. Of course bonus abusing would be nice if accepted, never use your own identity but some friends who still have all welcome bonuses available.

If gambling is fully 3rd party funded, it's high AML risk for quite obvious reasons, if i keep transferring you money all the time and you deposit and play, you quite soon find out in first SOW that it's not ok.

If casino have option that you can collect player pools, that's different thing and already visible there who all are participating but you just playing behalf of me is just not ok, ask from casinos you play and guess they advise pretty much same.

If you play together with somebody, don't just be that stupid that you let it be visible in your statement but use at least different method to receive funds and deposit, then you might be able to do that longer.
 
Slottery said:
I think you find reason already from many casinos T&C:s that you should play with your own money and details and nothing else.
Click to expand...
Well of course. But what I'm saying is that if two friends are talking online and one fancies a deposit and the other wants in, what is wrong with the deposit being split? Where's the bonus abuse there? Once the person transfers in to the depositors account, it becomes the depositors money to do what they like with. It has left one legitimate account into another. They are no longer the sender's funds.

I'm just saying, this happens. It happens on a small scale in the remarkable thread where money is sent from one person to another with the sole aim of gambling it up.

Like I say, gambling is a fun pastime yet it's getting to the point where casinos are making people feel like they're part of an organised crime ring.
 
As far as I'm aware they do have the same regulations under the law. If they suspect any hint of criminality then they have to undertake due diligence, the same as any other organisation dealing with financial matters.
I thought you were launching a sportsbook over a year ago, why don't you do that and save all the SoW requests if that is the case?
 
colinsunderland said:
As far as I'm aware they do have the same regulations under the law. If they suspect any hint of criminality then they have to undertake due diligence, the same as any other organisation dealing with financial matters.
I thought you were launching a sportsbook over a year ago, why don't you do that and save all the SoW requests if that is the case?
Click to expand...
I think the difference between the Maltese casinos and the UK ones is that the Maltese ones are setting these arbitrary thresholds to trigger SOW rather than doing it on an account by account basis. I would imagine the big UK bookies have designated personnel monitoring accounts rather than a generic department that solely deals with accounts once the arbitrary threshold has been met. That's the feeling I get anyway.

Someone with a £50 a week deposit limit set is highly unlikely to be a launderer nor a problem gambler yet under the system a lot of Maltese casinos operate, once the deposit threshold had been triggered, the customer would be expected to send in sensitive documents and have their withdrawal held for little reason at all.

That's the difference between how the UK & Maltese systems operate.
 
Last edited:
Mr Wild said:
I explained in this thread here how AML regulation work in UK including attaching a link to the regulation itself.

Videoslots refusing payment
Click to expand...
Yes - this.

Same old tricks from the casinos. The rules are perfectly clear. Either pay up or submit a SAR. If a SAR is submitted then HM Customs and Excise have 30 days in which to prosecute or instruct the Casino to give the money back - this can be extended to 60 days in extreme/complicated circumstances - think drug cartels and 7/8 figure amounts as those are the circumstances where it is extended.


Now, I can tell you there would not be a single Casino in the the UK that has submitted more than a couple of these in a calendar year - if that - due to the work involved, the authorities that need to be notified and most importantly the red flags that come into play when applying for re-licence to trade as a Casino.

Yet still we have same old tricks attempted by the usual culprits, thinking they have Carte Blanche to withhold funds as they see fit.

You are well within your rights to demand a chargeback from your bank for the £500 and you will likely get it as well.
Mr Wild said:
I explained in this thread here how AML regulation work in UK including attaching a link to the regulation itself.

Videoslots refusing payment
Click to expand...
 
SpinUk said:
Now, I can tell you there would not be a single Casino in the the UK that has submitted more than a couple of these in a calendar year - if that - due to the work involved, the authorities that need to be notified and most importantly the red flags that come into play when applying for re-licence to trade as a Casino.
Click to expand...

I do believe several companies submitted over 100s of SAR's in the UK. The top 3 companies in Malta all submitted over 100 during 2019.
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Gambling companies in UK submitted over 4000 SAR's between April 2018 to March 2019 together, that amount is probably higher during 2020.
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 

Which casino requested SOW on £50 deposit?
 
Mr Wild said:
Which casino requested SOW on £50 deposit?
Click to expand...
Energy requested SoW from me on under £100 deposits in a 2 year period. Not just a request of what my income was, a full SoW, payslips, bank statements etc. That was after a £20 deposit, my first one for about 6 months.
There was another requested it on lifetime deposits of around £1000 (about 3 year old account), and I was in profit there. They said it was RG related, so they thought I might have a gambling problem with an average of £7ish a week, of which I didn't actually lose anything. Never reversed or anything either. Yep, that makes sense. Needless to say, both accounts were closed instantly.
 
colinsunderland said:
There was another requested it on lifetime deposits of around £1000 (about 3 year old account), and I was in profit there. They said it was RG related, so they thought I might have a gambling problem with an average of £7ish a week,
Click to expand...
:laugh: :laugh:

This just highlights the issue perfectly. Absolutely 0 justification to request such information.

Just goes to prove that at some casinos, they don't even take time to look at the account history before hitting you with such requests. Backs up my assertion above about arbitrary limits. As you can see from your example, this is NOT the way to go about business.
 
Anybody using 3rd party funds should be banned and have every penny confiscated.

if you do not have the means to fund gambling yourself at the first point of contact then you have no business placing a wager anywhere.

not only is it embarrassing anyone should use a third party to spin a slot it throws up red flags all over for the casino whom rightly have money laundering and source of wealth to consider, not to mention KYC and the rules they must adhere to.
 
Playford7 said:
Anybody using 3rd party funds should be banned and have every penny confiscated.

if you do not have the means to fund gambling yourself at the first point of contact then you have no business placing a wager anywhere.

not only is it embarrassing anyone should use a third party to spin a slot it throws up red flags all over for the casino whom rightly have money laundering and source of wealth to consider, not to mention KYC and the rules they must adhere to.
Click to expand...
Don't be naive mate, it happens. A tad harsh.

I've seen community deposits on Twitch (non affiliated). It halves the liability (loss) for both parties and adds an element of fun. Doesn't mean the individual doesn't have the means to fund their own gambling or are a launderer!

A lot of assumptions are made about people and their circumstances where gambling is concerned!
 


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