Casino Operators Beware: AKA23

[PrimeGaming]

Though I know that this forum is typically dedicated to the player side of the business, I thought this to be revalent given the recent roast of Prime Casino. In addition, I felt that this was a large enough audience to make those of you who are operators/affiliate managers/casino directors, aware of what's happening.

I am actually in agreement with those of you have deemed some of our terms to be "Draconian". I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players. Though there is absolutely nothing illegal or even immoral about being one of these people, it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers.

Having said everything above, I'd like to bring an issue to light that has been plaguing us for several weeks. There exist in our business, rings of advantage, bonus seeker, and mathematical gamblers (I don't like labels but whatever you want to call them...) that are coming from a very short list of affiliates. At the top of this list in our Casino is a man known as: AKA23. I informed the Affiliate Manager dealing with him to ask him politely to stop sending traffic over two weeks ago. Since then, one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money.

Again, there is nothing illegal about what this man is doing but I want to make all of you aware to watch out for this guy. He and a few other affiliates (in my opinion) are running a largescale operation sending hordes of bonus seekers to casinos. I can confirm this because I have a friend at another major Microgaming group who was complaining about this very person to me. He has also sent almost the same number of players to them as well. It was then that I decided to say something about it as I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

Though AKA has been polite and candid about sending awful players, he has after two weeks of almost daily emails, refused to take our listing down from his sites.

In summary, he is the main source of our poor quality traffic and our new terms and conditions have been adjusted to prevent us from being cleaned out by his players and others like them.

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

Our software has been recently patched to make it impossible to withdraw until the wagering requirements are met. Because of this new feature, we will never again issue a payment that shouldn't be issued. Having said that, a player will never actually be able to break the terms by withdrawing early either.

All the best and Good Luck,

Josh.

 

[dominique]

So this post is about an affiliate and not players.

I am not going to get into all of this, but it does seem odd to me that he would refuse to take your listing down after you stop paying comissions.

Doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[happygobrokey]

aka23 is well known and indeed respected here. lucky sonofabitch too! when he made like 50k playing casinos, he decided to put his winnings to work by running an aff site. he just wants others to be able to share in the joy and luck he's experienced. if you pay him on revenue and not per signup, he will not make any money (since his players seem to win a lot) and that's all you can do. he could still send players to you even if it wasn't through banner/links. he runs a bonus advice website and as such he does your advertising for you. he also provides his visitors with sound play strategies for the various bonuses. but i think even if he got cut as an aff from everyone he is linked to, he would still keep the site up minus the clickthrough links, and players could still use his advice. so i guess forum owners and aff site owners really are the "kingpins" behind all the "organized advantage/abuse rings" going around eh?

 

[The Dude]

@Prime Casino

Please don't post real names unless you have permission from the person. Thanks!

 

[lnspin]

I still cannot see what the problem is when players win , using the bonus you give them , and making the playthru you require . it should not matter if they are mathematical gamblers , it is your bonus and you make the rules .

Hoe about make a term in the t&c no mathematical gamblers allowed or how about this , dont use a bonus if you are going to win ,

You even stated yourself nothing illegal about it , why give a bonus then if you do not want bonus seekers .

 

[aka23]

Edit -- Double Post

 

[aka23]

The facts you listed are not accurate. My affiliate agreement with Prime was terminated slightly less than 1 week ago. While the agreement was terminated, it was not until yesterday that anybody mentioned removing links, and only a single email was sent. This is far less than the "2 weeks of almost daily emails" mentioned in your post. I replied to this email and did not hear back from your affiliate manager. I had previously offered to promote tournaments and other ways to improve quality of players, and again I did not hear back.

I have greatly reduced Prime's ranking in my bonus lists due to the incidents related to removing winnings from Neteller accounts with your terms change. I doubt that I have been sending you much traffic since this change. This traffic does not have any affiliate tags and should not appear in your stats. As to why I don't remove all mention of Prime Casino from my sites... my sites are not centered around the size of affiliate commissions. They are centered around accurate information. My casino/bonus lists rank casinos according to who I believe offers the best bonus based on quality of bonus, quality of casino, risk of unexpected problems, and several other factors. The order is not determined by size of commissions.

 

[dominique]

aka23 is well known and indeed respected here. lucky sonofabitch too! when he made like 50k playing casinos, he decided to put his winnings to work by running an aff site. he just wants others to be able to share in the joy and luck he's experienced. if you pay him on revenue and not per signup, he will not make any money (since his players seem to win a lot) and that's all you can do. he could still send players to you even if it wasn't through banner/links. he runs a bonus advice website and as such he does your advertising for you. he also provides his visitors with sound play strategies for the various bonuses. but i think even if he got cut as an aff from everyone he is linked to, he would still keep the site up minus the clickthrough links, and players could still use his advice. so i guess forum owners and aff site owners really are the "kingpins" behind all the "organized advantage/abuse rings" going around eh?

A forum does not make a "ring". A "ring" or "cartel" is criminal and consits of a group of people who use fake ID and all sorts of subterfuge to keep returning to play the same welcome bonuses.

Forums are all about free speech and play strategies are always discussed. Some work, some don't.

What we really need in this industry is a "dictionary" that defines who is who and what is what, so we can all use the same language. There is more confusion about "abuse" and "advantage" and "groups" and what have you than I have ever seen any other place. Threads go on and on about who is what and nothing ever gets into facts because people use the same words and mean different things by them.

Affiliates don't expect to be paid when the casino isn't making a profit. Casinos would drop like flies if they paid affiliates for traffic that loses money for the casino - a double whammie.

It sounds like we are talking about what I call advantage players here, and the only way a casino can avoid them is by designing fool proof welcome bonus T&Cs, or by using retention bonuses instead.

 

[happygobrokey]

i had a feeling i might have gotten taken seriously there. i used quotation marks! from the coolcat thread, it appears a forum is the hub where all the conspiracy takes place, and then the players swoop on any casino dumb enough to take them. now prime alleges that aka's site is also a "safe haven" for abusive/advantage/nuissance players. so i was just sarcastically asking if casinos really think forums and aff sites are the HQ for these bonus abusers, and the tie that binds them all together into an "organized racket".

 

[ogpaper]

Wow, I cannot believe you went public like that. I would be surprised if you have any affiliates left, so you may as well just shut down and pack up.

I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players.

Do you think your casino is the only one with advantage-players? Instead of bashing an affiliate for NOT breaking T&C, how about getting some affiliates with good traffic to compensate for the rest?

I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

And this is not the way you will get affiliates to sign up and promote your casino. Buying a software and hiring 5 people to pick up the phone is not how you run a successful casino.

I hope your story will help other affiliate programs and casinos see clearly that the affiliates are a very important part of the business and they can make you or break you (unless you do it yourselves first).

As Dom said - Rev Share Only would ensure a quality flow of traffic to your casino.

it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers

Yup, you guys were itching for the big bucks, and no one paid attention to the fact that mathematics could be (and are) employed by the casinos, as well. There is not a single casino in the world which depends on luck to make profits.

 

[Professor]

"I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call me a advantage player. You have a right to ban me. You have a right to do that... but you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies. I remember when I was an online Blackjack player. Seems a thousand centuries ago. We went into a casino to collect a few bonuses. We left the casino after we had played for an hour or two and this old man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went back there and the casino boss had come and closed every one of our accounts. There they were in a pile. A pile of little closed accounts. And I remember... I... I... I cried. I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want to forget. And then I realized... like I was shot... like I was shot with a diamond... a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we. Because they could stand that. These pit bosses were not monsters. These were men... trained cadres. These men who fought with their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with love... but they had the strength... the strength... to do that. If I had ten divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to ban players and affiliates without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

 

[The Dude]

..."I've seen horrors... horrors that you've seen...

Someone's been hittin' up the whacky weed

 

[dominique]

hehe Prof, you have been reading some weird s#!t !

Actually it's a classic, but that makes it no less weird.

 

[Professor]

Its surreal, just like this thread....

 

[soflat]

Josh are you new to the business? You haven't figured out how to handle advantage players and the affiliates that refer them yet?

Are you trying to start a cartel here? A cartel of casinos and affiliate managers?

 

[jetset]

Sounds more to me as if it's the operators who are sinking their own ships with ill-advised bonus sums that possibly negate the "edge" factor.....this certainly is a weird thread.

This is a casino manager complaining about an affiliate who's sending him lots of traffic - traffic which legitimately adheres to T&Cs that the casino itself has designed!

Who's fault is it that the casino has lost big bucks in this scenario? Shouldn't the casino take into account that amongst the gamblers it attracts with its bonus offers there are certain to be expert players who can test the T&C - legally - to the maximum?

Unfortunately, the downside of this sort of experience means that casinos are likely to tighten up or modify their T&Cs to combat the (for them) worse possible scenario of too many expert gamblers....and that means ordinary players will find less in the way of bonuses too.

There are some good suggestions in this thread, especially about retention.

 

[thelawnet]

Though I know that this forum is typically dedicated to the player side of the business, I thought this to be revalent given the recent roast of Prime Casino. In addition, I felt that this was a large enough audience to make those of you who are operators/affiliate managers/casino directors, aware of what's happening.

I am actually in agreement with those of you have deemed some of our terms to be "Draconian". I have had to modify our terms in this manner due to the fact that the lion's share of our traffic over the last two months consisted bonus seekers and advantage players. Though there is absolutely nothing illegal or even immoral about being one of these people, it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers.

Having said everything above, I'd like to bring an issue to light that has been plaguing us for several weeks. There exist in our business, rings of advantage, bonus seeker, and mathematical gamblers (I don't like labels but whatever you want to call them...) that are coming from a very short list of affiliates. At the top of this list in our Casino is a man known as: AKA23. I informed the Affiliate Manager dealing with him to ask him politely to stop sending traffic over two weeks ago. Since then, one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money.

Again, there is nothing illegal about what this man is doing but I want to make all of you aware to watch out for this guy. He and a few other affiliates (in my opinion) are running a largescale operation sending hordes of bonus seekers to casinos. I can confirm this because I have a friend at another major Microgaming group who was complaining about this very person to me. He has also sent almost the same number of players to them as well. It was then that I decided to say something about it as I would prefer that affiliates like this are banned from all Affiliate Programs as they make business very difficult for everyone.

Though AKA has been polite and candid about sending awful players, he has after two weeks of almost daily emails, refused to take our listing down from his sites.

In summary, he is the main source of our poor quality traffic and our new terms and conditions have been adjusted to prevent us from being cleaned out by his players and others like them.

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

Our software has been recently patched to make it impossible to withdraw until the wagering requirements are met. Because of this new feature, we will never again issue a payment that shouldn't be issued. Having said that, a player will never actually be able to break the terms by withdrawing early either.

Let me get this straight.

This guy appears to have a site called "Beating Bonuses". It is public website, anyone can go there. It appears they have done, and have clicked on his link to your site.

This does not represent a 'ring' in any shape or form, and it is inappropriate and possibly defamatory to describe it as one, and to name him personally.

Secondly, to make a comment like this is just stupid:

"one of his advantage players has taken us for an enormous amount of money."

You have ONE signup bonus of 100. If this guy has made an "enormous amount of money" he as not "taken you for it", he has won it by g-a-m-b-l-i-n-g. Most casinos I understand to be in the business of gambling. Perhaps yours is not - this explains why you are not attracting any 'good' players, as the implication from your comments, that players are simply there to make regular cash donations, as if you were some kind of charitable cause.

To make it clear: the 100 you gave him, the "enormous amount of money", he *won*.

Moving on, your suggestion that he is somehow acting improperly by refusing to remove your link is again foolish and possibly defamatory.

Aka23 is, I believe, an American and has a constitutional right of free speech. Linking to your website is his right, and you should not be suggesting that he is doing anything wrong by doing this. I am not sure of the terms of your contract with him, but I am sure that as an honest legitimate business you will pay whatever consideration is due under the terms of your contract for the players he has sent your way.

You do of course have a right to cease to do business with him as an affiliate, having complied with your contractual obligations in respect of past transactions, but your suggestion that he should remove a simple hyperlink is absurd.

You in turn are quite free to ban players coming from his site, before they deposit, although I must confess I am rather concerned by another statement you made.

"watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about"

Eh????? What?

As I suggested above, casinos are in the gambling business. Not the donation to business.

So it is not a very good advertisement for your business when you openly admit to not really caring about paying your winners.

"it is simply impossible to remain profitable when the majority of your players are mathematical gamblers. "

Indeed. Such is running a business. It's hard to make a profit as a fine dining restaurant when the only customers don't have much money as well.

It's also hard to make a profit as a car dealer if you don't sell any cars.

Boo hoo. Improve your marketing. Change your business plan. Block signups from his site.

Do whatever it is you want to do.

But don't come whining and blaming someone else's behaviour for the fact that you've apparently opened the world's first casino were you don't like people to gamble.

If your business loses money CHANGE YOUR BUSINESS.

It's not rocket science really.

 

[thelawnet]

Affiliates don't expect to be paid when the casino isn't making a profit. Casinos would drop like flies if they paid affiliates for traffic that loses money for the casino - a double whammie.

They have a CPA agreement to pay $75 per new customer.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you send 20 customers, win or lose, the casino owes the affiliate $1500. Very simple.

If the casino finds the traffic is not profitable, the terms of the agreement typically provide that they can move him onto a revenue share, where if the casino doesn't make any money, the affiliate doesn't get paid.

But they still have to pay for the traffic they sent to him before they changed the agreement.

 

[dominique]

Not sure what the T&Cs are there, but usually there is a rule about minimum value of deposits when you do CPA.

On CAP you will see dozens of complaint posts because the casino closing the CPA affiliate account - usually it turns out there is a clause in the T&C about it.

There used to be a lot of stuff going on years back, where players would sign up as affiliates and get a CPA deal, and then send all their friends to make minimum deposits and the casinos would pay out 3x the amount they took in.

Obviously no business can exist like that, so they created the minimum value T&Cs.

 

[lots0]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

 

[lojo]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

Are you kidding? Look at the free advertising he's getting.

kapow, backfire.

 

[dominique]

I just looked and can't find the CPA value clause. It may still be there someplace or in the agreement you sign, or maybe it's an oversight by a new casino.

 

[thelawnet]

Is it just me or is the title of this thread unwarranted and more than a little derogatory toward AKA23?

I for one vote for an edit.

I think this is already the edited version - it had his real name in it before Bryan changed it....

 

[NASHVEGAS]

PRIME & OTHER ONLINES WTF?

PART 1
Copyright Las Vegas Review-Journal JUNE 18,2006

Jury deals gamblers winning hand

Two awarded punitive damages from detective agency used by casinos

By ROD SMITH
GAMING WIRE


Two advantage gamblers whose rights were violated in an incident five years ago at Caesars Palace on Friday won punitive damages from a detective agency that supplies information to casinos.

A District Court jury ordered Griffin Investigations to pay Michael Russo $15,000 and James Grosjean $10,000 in punitive damages.

Advertisement

Advantage gamblers increase their chances of winning by legally taking advantage of a dealer's or a casino's mistakes or by means such as card counting.
Griffin Investigations supplies lists of suspected advantage players and cheats to casinos.

Last week, the jury decided that Caesars Palace had falsely imprisoned, defamed and battered the two men and that Griffin Investigations was guilty of libel and maliciousness.
It ordered each company to pay Russo and Grosjean actual damages of $25,000 apiece and found that Griffin Investigations and Caesars Palace should be subject to punitive damages. Judge Lee Gates, who heard the case, ordered Friday's hearing to decide on punitive damages.

Sources familiar with gaming law said this is probably the first case in which Griffin has failed to win on technical arguments.

The case's conclusion was also unusual for advantage gambling lawsuits, which are normally dismissed or settled out of court and for much less, usually from $15,000 to $20,000, according to several local attorneys.

On Thursday, Caesars Palace settled its punitive liabilities from the lawsuit for an undisclosed amount.

David Strow, spokesman for Harrah's Entertainment, which acquired Caesars Palace this week as part of its $9 billion merger with Caesars Entertainment, declined comment.

"The jury in this case clearly told Griffin Investigations it no longer can include the universe of advantage gamblers and just say individuals are suspected of cheating or using a device and ascribe a felony (as they did in this case)," said Bob Nersesian, a Las Vegas attorney who represents Russo and Grosjean.
The judgments vindicated his clients and showed that people in Nevada believe casinos should treat all patrons, even winners, with proper respect under the law, he said.
The complaint in this case originated from an April 2000 incident when Russo and Grosjean were playing Three Card Poker at Caesars.

Grosjean, a doctoral candidate in economics at the University of Chicago and author of "Beyond Counting," a "how-to" manual on beating the gambling odds, was winning the game thanks to a "sloppy" dealer and his own "hole carding," where a player tries to catch a glimpse of a dealer's face-down card, he said.

Caesars Palace pit workers, based in part on an entry about Russo in Griffin Investigations' book of known cheats, detained the two men and accused them of card bending.

Griffin Investigations has listed Russo in its book since 1993, and has described him as having a history of "21 hole carding, card bending, Caribbean Stud conspiracy."

The company also listed Russo as a "known" card bender in a number of fliers sent to casinos.

Caesars Palace called the Nevada Gaming Control Board, handcuffed and searched Russo and Grosjean and detained them for five hours.

Russo and Grosjean were then arrested by Las Vegas police for allegedly cheating.

Russo was released the next day, but Grosjean was held in custody for 4 1/2 days.

At the recent trial, Caesars Palace contended the Gaming Control Board had investigated and decided to arrest Russo and Grosjean. However, the jury found Caesars Palace had pressed to have them arrested based on evidence the casino gave state investigators.

The jury found that Caesars Palace had no probable cause to believe that Russo or Grosjean committed a gaming violation or a felony.

Last year, Grosjean won a $400,000 judgment against Imperial Palace in a related case.

PART 2
Griffin Investigations
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Griffin Investigations was once the most prominent group of private investigators specializing in the gambling industry. The company was founded in 1967 by Beverly S. Griffin and Robert R. Griffin.
The company maintained dossiers on card counters, serial jackpot winners, and other individuals, chiefly professional gamblers using legal techniques to gain an advantage in casino games; these profiles were regularly published in the Griffin Book, and distributed to subscribing casinos. Griffin Investigations was instrumental in ending the MIT Blackjack Teams winning streak, after a Griffin investigator purchased the names, photographs, and other details identifying the groups members and the company distributed the information to casinos. Roughly half of the major casinos in the U.S. once subscribed to Griffins services.

Griffin also marketed a controversial face recognition system that used computer software to compare gamblers' faces against several volumes of mug shots. According to a Las Vegas Sun article, Beverly Griffin, co-owner of Griffin Investigations, "estimates as many as half of Southern Nevada's casinos now use biometric technology to identify the faces of card cheats or other undesirables"[1]. However, a Las Vegas casino surveillance director (writing under the pseudonym Cellini) reported in the 2004 book The Card Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance that biometric technology was considered virtually useless by actual casino surveillance operatives because of overwhelming numbers of false reads.


[edit] History
The Las Vegas Sun reported on September 13, 2005, that Griffin Investigations had filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in light of legal costs and damages from a successful defamation lawsuit against the company. The lawsuit had been brought by two gamblers, Michael Russo and James Grosjean, claiming they had been improperly detained, labeled as cheaters and arrested, on the basis of information supplied by Griffin[2].

 

[Da_Gambla]

A great deal of my posts in the "Prime removed from Neteller" thread had to do with a sense I was getting from Josh at Prime. I did not contribute a first post to that thread until quite late in the game. A lot of people asked why I wouldn't just accept his answers and move on. It was because of his arrogance that I kept pressing.

I hope it is now clear what I was seeing, and why I kept pressuring.

This post by Josh is calling for all casino managers to basically collaborate to try and end AKA's affiliate business.

For the record, Josh, you have violated two terms of your account at CM:

1.4 - No posting of privileged information. Please remember to respect other's privacy. In the public forum, do not post real names, email addresses, or other personal identifiers that may be considered privileged information. If these items are already publicly available, this shouldn't be a problem. But if these are from private correspondence, or from some user database, discretion is advised.

1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts. Do not make posts that could be considered libelous, defamatory, or posting merely to cause harm to another's business. Opinions are expected, but do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

I'm not the least bit surprised at this post.

- Keith

 

[mikepipe]

i gave OP my warm thanks (-21/2) with the comment "absolutely unprofessional".
nuff said.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Cheers.

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

 

[Da_Gambla]

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

You are developing quite a habit of of packing up your marbles and runnng home when you don't get the response you're looking for...

I hope you haven't taken any of this personal. A lot of people waltz in and immediately underestimate what this forum can do, ether postively or negatively. You have the ability to do good business as a general rule (although you can't please everyone), or you can get eaten alive in the course of 24 hrs. This forum has such a diverse set of characters that it's almost an entity all its own. One thing for sure, however, is the ever-present bullshite meter. If you ping it as hard as you did, it's gong to be a long recovery. Not impossible, mind you, but certainly challenging enough that I respect your decision to go back to what you do best over there at Prime.

Take care Josh, and of course, thanks for playing...

- Keith

 

[XXLClubCasino]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section

 

[NASHVEGAS]

You are developing quite a habit of of packing up your marbles and runnng home when you don't get the response you're looking for..

Running home as AKA could and should lock this guy down like a Gitmo terrorist. AKA's call and probably will rightfully move on. Just a shame that so many of these online managers do not get it............I suppose Josh is one the reasons that so many veteran forum members drill the 32 Red's and Inetbet's in us underclassmen/women over and over. Kudos to them.

 

[mrracetrack]

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.
__________________
Joshua Cartu
Casino Director
PrimeCasino.com

I'm surprised you still have a job after some of the things you've posted here... in your short time as a forum member.

You've left a "Big Impression" on myself... and I'm sure quite a few others... about the way Prime Casino is run... and trust me... it wasn't the impression that you would have liked.

 

[pangloss]

.....I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic ....

Consulting pangloss' online gaming dictionary I find that "quality traffic" means in casino/affiliate speak:

"......a chump, loser, inveterate gambler, next week's pay cheque, brain dead, low-life, unable to count to 10, to be exploited at all costs, roll out the red carpet, the mortgage/rent payer, pays kid's school fees and puts bread on the table. Yum yum."


Within 12 hours of my public lauding aka23's marvelous web site and contribution to safe online gaming it appears some consider such an affiliate to be the very antichrist of Casinos.

aka promotes hundreds of other casinos and yet not a murmur of complaint from them - just a whine from Prime.


...

 

[soflat]

Sometimes the best advice is not what you are hoping to hear and it is hard to take. There was some great and honest advice given here from players, affiliates, and even other casino operators.

This is the best forum and you can learn a lot here, but apparently Josh wants a place where people will agree with him. If that is the case, then I think he'll continue to blame others for the casino not reaching its full potential.

 

[Alexandre]

Lastly, I read some of my posts on the "other" thread and realized that I may have come off a bit snide. I apologize if some of you took me this way but I was dealing with a massive influx of these "players" and so watching advantage players complain about their winnings being withdrawn was not something I was overly sympathetic about. Having said that though, it was wrong to reverse chargeback their Neteller accounts and we will not be doing this again.

I made a mistake in posting aka23's information here and I wholeheartedly apologize for doing that. I'm glad that Bryan picked it up quickly and was able to edit my post. After reading what you've said here, this was definitley the wrong venue for this discussion. Having said that, I have a great deal of appreciation for the Affiliates that are sending us quality traffic and I started this thread out of frustration that aka23 did not take down our links after sending scores of bonus seeker/advantage player traffic. He's by no means legally obligated to do so but I would have expected as much as a professional courtesy.

This will be my final post on CasinoMeister. Should Bryan ask for comment on issues in the future, I will post an official response/statement but my presence here will be limited to that.

Best Regards,

Josh.

Well, it looks like you've made more than one mistake lately.
It's a first step you recognize it and it's even better you apologize for it.
But while Bryan is cleaning the mess behind you on this forum, I'm wondering who is doing this job at Prime Casino ?
As mrracetrack said it before me, I'm impressed by your contribution to this forum.
I wouldn't have you as my pet sitter...the poor animal would be safer alone.
Sometimes I just don't understand all this egaming industry.
Where do they find some of these clowns we are seing regulary coming on this forum with the "casino manager" title ?

 

[jenn1381]

Running away with your tail between your legs is probably not the answer here... Yes, sometimes people here can be brutal - BUT - they are usually correct and merely trying to get people to see the truth. I for one look am always impressed when casino's have an ongoing relationship with the forums.. Palace Group, for example.. I am sure they've hit some negativity at some point too, but they still post all the time just because... and it is appreciated.

Casino's need to realize that they are in the buisness of gambling. Some people are going to be better at it than others. Some are going to come and lose, some are going to win huge amounts.. and unless they are committing fraud to help them win, casino's need to stuff it, pay them, and move on. If casino's don't want big winners, they are in the wrong buisness. Mathematics prove that it will happen, and the more players you get the more often it will happen. If you expect every single player to have a positive balance with you (deposits equal more than withdrawls) than you're living in a dream world.

Nuff outta me.. moving on.

 

[BBKPoker]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

You should be glad you are not near the top of the "best bonuses" list. The list is meant for bonuses that can be had by advantage players, and does not represent the true value for a "normal" player who would use lower bets and more hands or spins.
To value a bonus for "recreational" play, one should look at the WR, and see how much bankroll would be lost to the HE of applicable games. If this comes to less than the value of a cashable bonus, then such bonus is vulnerable to the "grinder". The best bonuses would be large enough to extend play, but with WR to ensure a broadly neutral outcome based on the "grinder". This would ensure that only a lucky streak would allow a player to withdraw a profit, and low bet sizes will ensure any advantage player would still need several wins at a game of Blackjack to get enough of a boost before making WR, rather than a huge boost from one 50/50 outcome.

AKA23 is only one site, shutting his links will achieve nothing, he can still discuss the bonus, how to play it, and players can link through from other sites, or even just Google for the site.
The wizard of odds website discusses the mathematics behind most casino games, and variations with different softwares. He only promotes BoDog, but has bonus beating strategies comlete with degree level algebra.

Paying affiliates for players based on CPA rather than revenue share gives a huge incentive to run an advantage play site. The site gets traffic because of the quality of information, and even though players win, the site still makes money.

Even if all casinos banned CPA, advantage sites could run on a subscription model, with players paying to get hold of information on advantage play. There are a small number of fruit machine sites here in the UK based on this model, and although some are just scams, others contain useful information about fruitie exploits that most people never hear about till it is too late.

The only real way out is for casinos to think up of a way to attract players without making their SUB a steal for the clever mathematicians among us.

While Josh is drawing criticism for starting this thread, he is the first casino operator to publically say what I bet they are all thinking behind the boadroom doors. He has confirmed what most players have suspected, that much of this talk of "groups of fraudsters" is nothing more than traffic generated from these kinds of affiliate or advantage play site, hence we have unbelievable tales of groups of conspiritors collaborating over whole continents presented as though they actually met up together and planned the whole operation, rather than just seeing it discussed on some website, and simply joining the party.

In the case of Prime, its the 100 SUB and then nothing, where is the player retention? It is no surprise that most traffic is from bonus seekers and advantage players, who take the SUB and never look in again. Most other casinos run various promotions to entice players to come back and play again, and the best ensure the promotions are varied, so no advantage player can work them by rote for too long without having to do the maths all over again.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

You should be glad you are not near the top of the "best bonuses" list.

I said this in a sarcastic way! But I give you absolutely right on your statement that no casinos loves the one shot never see again bonus lovers. When we first started a year ago we were very generous in the way we setup our bonuses and with the list aloud for wagering. The result was of course a disastrous net income as you can imagine.

It would not come to my mind to complain to any affiliates our not to pay the lucky mathematicians players. We set the bonuses, we set the T&C, we are the only responsible for what happened. Anyway we learned from OUR mistakes and made the appropriate changes in our bonus setup. We still are hit by "bonus lovers" but far less than before.

 

[BBKPoker]

I guess yes, betsize increase with VIP levels. This setup was of course defined to prevent the all-In first bet of bonus lovers

Also minusule is a question of definition in our case almost no players play on the max limit per game i.e 250 per spin or 25 per BJ hands, exept of course the bonus lovers.

That's fine for you to make that decision obviously, but it's probably not that good of a business decision. If you don't want to spread limits of 1-300 per hand, players can choose to play on virtually any other Microgaming (max bet limits of $200) Playtech (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $300) or RTG site (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $250).

I'd guess something like 98% of the industry offers at least $100 bets or larger. And, you'll probably never find out what it's like to have a whale slamming maximum bets for 3 hours with poor strategy, because there is zero chance you are going to keep one with those starting limits. I for one would just immediately withdraw and go elsewhere.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

That's fine for you to make that decision obviously, but it's probably not that good of a business decision. If you don't want to spread limits of 1-300 per hand, players can choose to play on virtually any other Microgaming (max bet limits of $200) Playtech (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $300) or RTG site (adjustable, but generally max bet limits of $250).

I'd guess something like 98% of the industry offers at least $100 bets or larger. And, you'll probably never find out what it's like to have a whale slamming maximum bets for 3 hours with poor strategy, because there is zero chance you are going to keep one with those starting limits. I for one would just immediately withdraw and go elsewhere.

We have a couple of highrollers in our casinos mostly Russians where we were more than happy to adjust their VIP levels and the associated game limits which is way over the 300$ max bet that you see at other casinos.

For us the definition of a highrollers do not start with the standard 200$ max deposit to get the max available bonus. Any "real" highroller will contact our VIP manager previous to make any deposit. During the first contact table limits, welcome bonuses etc. are adjusted to best fit the player requirements and taste. The regular WR as well as restricted games will be partially lifted or define with the player to best match his gambling habits.

For us this one to one player relationship is working perfectly well and players as well as we are better of than before adjustments were made. By reducing the bet limits for "standard" players and bonus lovers we have manage to turn our casino from a non profitable business to a profitable one which is what we were looking fore.

Bonus lovers can hit a casino in a unbelievable way within a very short time, this due to the fact than when a player find a mathematical way to risk none of his own cash and turn a negative hedge to a positive by playing smart, he will spread the word through the various internet information gateways. The casino see then 1000 of players playing the exact same way and see itself hit badly. I'm pretty sure most of the time it's not a player syndicate but only a simple response to a forum entry or a mass mailing.

For our part we took this decision after reviewing 1000s of players accounts and game logs with professionals mathematicians like the "wizard of odds" and the current setup produced the awaited effect.

I'm sure other casinos will follow in the same direction. From this original posting you can see that a casino can't survive to be hit this way over a long periode of time and casinos managers are overwhelmed with it and react all differently. The same is valid in landbase casinos BJ tables have tables limits for all type of players but you will barely never see 1-300, at least I never see it.

If anyone has good revolutionary ideas on the best way to handle welcome bonuses for a wast majority of players from a .05 to a 300$ per spin I would love to hear it and try to implement it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If anyone has good revolutionary ideas on the best way to handle welcome bonuses for a wast majority of players from a .05 to a 300$ per spin I would love to hear it and try to implement it.

Any bonus with a +EV is going to get hit by hunters. Lowering initial table limits prevents this, but might mean you lose players who think the limits are permanent.
High Rollers are less interested in the bonus than in good service, such as having your questions answered instead of a standard "cut & paste" reply.

Problems have been caused at XXLClub by players not knowing the initial limits are set lower than other places. This could be remedied by stipulating these limits are set because of the welcome bonus, and inviting players who want higher limits to make contact to discuss a deal. Since you get to communicate in advance, you have a chance to determine if the player is likely to be serious, or a bonus hunter pretending to be a high roller having just read the last post!

 

[aka23]

What a disappointment not to see our casino listed in the "BEST CASINO SIGN-UP BONUSES" section.

That would be because you have miniscule bet-sizes.

It has more to do with the terms of the bonus. The sign-up bonus is non-cashable; and Blackjack, Video Poker, and 3-card Poker are all not allowed. The remaining available games all have a house edge of >2.6%, so the player is expected to lose most of the sticky bonus during the wagering.

Many casinos have a similar offer to the above. In the past month, two groups with similar offers thanked me for the quality of traffic referred (links appear on all bonus and sw lists, not best bonus list). One went so far as to offer a large CPA, if I moved their casino to 1st on the best bonus list. I doubt that bonus hunters will make a large dent in profits with an offer like this, regardless of table limits.

 

[cyprean]

Any "real" highroller will contact our VIP manager previous to make any deposit.

I laughed when I read this.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Problems have been caused at XXLClub by players not knowing the initial limits are set lower than other places. This could be remedied by stipulating these limits are set because of the welcome bonus, and inviting players who want higher limits to make contact to discuss a deal. Since you get to communicate in advance, you have a chance to determine if the player is likely to be serious, or a bonus hunter pretending to be a high roller having just read the last post!

I totally agree with you that we should better describe the steps needed to increase the table limits, I'll work on this. Proactive communication is always the best.

Regarding problems with caused to players, I'm not aware of this. We had a couple of max deposits (200) where players asked to be refunded before playing meaning they were surely unhappy either by the games restrictions or the table limits but we of course refunded the players his deposit at no charge and in full.

To be honest and you are all surely aware of this is that one of the criteria to detect bonus seekers is:

1. Maximum deposit of the first deposit bonus (i.e 200 deposit + 200 bonus)
2. Maximum bets at low house hedge

This rule apply to almost 100% of the bonus lovers. This means for us that no highroller or recreational player do play this way. Highrollers will deposit more than the 200 and recreational players will not bet the maximum per hands.

Given these pretty straight forwards assumptions I strongly believe that we did the right thing and that we are not really missing a lot of highroller business.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I totally agree with you that we should better describe the steps needed to increase the table limits, I'll work on this. Proactive communication is always the best.

Regarding problems with caused to players, I'm not aware of this. We had a couple of max deposits (200) where players asked to be refunded before playing meaning they were surely unhappy either by the games restrictions or the table limits but we of course refunded the players his deposit at no charge and in full.

To be honest and you are all surely aware of this is that one of the criteria to detect bonus seekers is:

1. Maximum deposit of the first deposit bonus (i.e 200 deposit + 200 bonus)
2. Maximum bets at low house hedge

This rule apply to almost 100% of the bonus lovers. This means for us that no highroller or recreational player do play this way. Highrollers will deposit more than the 200 and recreational players will not bet the maximum per hands.

Given these pretty straight forwards assumptions I strongly believe that we did the right thing and that we are not really missing a lot of highroller business.

I have seen some casinos offer a "high roller" deal directly on the website. It normally comes with a MINIMUM deposit in the $1000+ range, and may have set terms, or an invitation to discuss.

Your criteria 1 & 2 are a very good sign of detecting a bonus hunter, as this is the best way to handle the non-cashable bonus. A "recreational" player could well deposit the $200 max, but would want the bankroll to last longer than 2 seconds. The non-cashable element may be putting off some players due to the fact that they have to play games with 2%+ house edge, and thus may feel they can never win from the first deposit.
The best thing to consider is removing ALL game exclusions, and using table limits alone to control advantage strategy, making sure players know before depositing that by accepting the bonus they agree to these limits.

In the long term, marketing need to look for ways to attract players without the standard SUB. These have to be inviting enough to compete with SUB offers, yet not so loose that advantage players can harvest them with little effort. These incentives might be based on how much a player wagers, not how big their deposit was, and could run for a set period of time from account opening.
For example, having 1% of their total WAGER on slots refunded to them. This will look great when it turns up in the account, but with a house edge greater than this, the casino, over all participating players, will only lose 1% of the 5% or so house edge on slots.

 

[JohnGalt]

I'm sure other casinos will follow in the same direction. From this original posting you can see that a casino can't survive to be hit this way over a long periode of time and casinos managers are overwhelmed with it and react all differently. The same is valid in landbase casinos BJ tables have tables limits for all type of players but you will barely never see 1-300, at least I never see it.

Not many places offer $1 bets but plenty of casinos have bigger spreads than that. Bellagio, for example, always has a couple $5-$5000 blackjack tables.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Not many places offer $1 bets but plenty of casinos have bigger spreads than that. Bellagio, for example, always has a couple $5-$5000 blackjack tables.

But they won't give you 200$ in free bonus to sit down at the table but thank you for the info.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I have seen some casinos offer a "high roller" deal directly on the website. It normally comes with a MINIMUM deposit in the $1000+ range, and may have set terms, or an invitation to discuss.

Your criteria 1 & 2 are a very good sign of detecting a bonus hunter, as this is the best way to handle the non-cashable bonus. A "recreational" player could well deposit the $200 max, but would want the bankroll to last longer than 2 seconds. The non-cashable element may be putting off some players due to the fact that they have to play games with 2%+ house edge, and thus may feel they can never win from the first deposit.
The best thing to consider is removing ALL game exclusions, and using table limits alone to control advantage strategy, making sure players know before depositing that by accepting the bonus they agree to these limits.

In the long term, marketing need to look for ways to attract players without the standard SUB. These have to be inviting enough to compete with SUB offers, yet not so loose that advantage players can harvest them with little effort. These incentives might be based on how much a player wagers, not how big their deposit was, and could run for a set period of time from account opening.
For example, having 1% of their total WAGER on slots refunded to them. This will look great when it turns up in the account, but with a house edge greater than this, the casino, over all participating players, will only lose 1% of the 5% or so house edge on slots.

I think cashback is the way to go. We offer a cashback of 5-10% on any lost but with a max WD of 100 at the moment to all players that deposit.

We are doing the math to extend this cashback without any game restrictions and max cashout but it's quite a challenging task, a 1% cashback will look quite unspectacular to players and with an average of 96.5-102% monthly payout percentage we can't give much more so we better be over careful and miss some business.

We are also working on a new type of exclusive free side bets that will act as a new bonus system.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I think cashback is the way to go. We offer a cashback of 5-10% on any lost but with a max WD of 100 at the moment to all players that deposit.

We are doing the math to extend this cashback without any game restrictions and max cashout but it's quite a challenging task, a 1% cashback will look quite unspectacular to players and with an average of 96.5-102% monthly payout percentage we can't give much more so we better be over careful and miss some business.

We are also working on a new type of exclusive free side bets that will act as a new bonus system.

I did have a look at the current offers, and they are indeed "crap", especially for me as a Brit. The 25x slots playthrough & non-cashable nature make it better to play without the SUB, although it might be worth using the SUB to chase down a progressive.

It seems an increasing number of "Brit hating" casinos are springing up, and this will only put off players from the only European "first world" country to formally recognise remote gaming as legal, and offer a regulatory regime to operators (albeit spoiled by Gordon Browns greed, and lack of understanding of internet market forces).

Not as bad as the 50x WR I saw earlier, but I would stick with cashable bonuses with WR being so high, and this means Microgaming at the standard 30x Bonus only for slots, and game weightings for the rest.