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Meeting with Microgaming: what do players want?

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The Dude

The Dude

The artist formally known as Casinomeister
Hall Of Fame Awardee Shield Meister
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I'll be meeting with Microgaming at the Isle of Man in the next couple of days, and if you have any constructive suggestions or comments you'd like me to share with them, please post them here and I'll bring them to the table.
 
Would be interesting to know if they have they taken any steps recently to prevent casinos disappearing into the big black hole.

I think Microgaming should have give a new casino the choice of either being licensed by a reputable licnese such as the UK licensing or Kahnawake (who seem to be pulling their act together of the late) and Alderney, failing that, they ought to have a "reserve" with Microgaming, the funds wont be used for arbitration, but only in the event they go belly up.
 
Thats great!:D

The biggest problem I have with MG are the softwarechanges that made the older games almost unplayable when beeing on anything less than a quadcore with a dedicaded 512MB or more videocard.

All other software runs just fine on my PC, the new Marvell games from Playtech run superfast and smooth, and these are also graphic intensive.

I know there are many, many complaints, as even now there are still MG casinos refusing the updates (like Fortune Lounge and Casino Rewards), so I really wonder if anything is done about this.

Microgaming used to be the fastest and smoothest playing software, now they are by far the worst playing software.:mad:
I've upgraded my pc, from a single core Celeron (on which MG ran just fine until November last year) to a dualcore, but its still crap.

I really hope they are going to do something about it, so that I can enjoy games like Stash of the Titans, Little Chief, BDBA, and Jolly Jester the way I used to do.

Thanks in advance! :thumbsup:
 
What uungy said.

Plus any comments why they directed skins (at least RedNines) to TUSK/MPP when "everyone" should have seen that it was slowly being drained out of money. How much rake did they get from the TUSK poker players over the years?

And why they had no problems allowing Linx Group opening a casino (Linx casino) when the whole group was close to bust. How much rake did they get from the Eurolinx poker players over the years? (BetOnBet was "too fresh" in the Linx stable)

Apparently they do zero due diligence on tho whom they license their software. Is that going to change? E: so that we dont see any new multimillion fiasco in the future.
 
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What if anything they are going to do about the Amercan players. How is it still possible to play in a MCG casino but be denied excess to new games and progressives? It doesn't make any sense..what if an American player hit a big sum on one of the slots?... they would find a way to pay him so either deny all American players or let us have everything.:D
 
Casinomeister said:
I'll be meeting with Microgaming at the Isle of Man in the next couple of days, and if you have any constructive suggestions or comments ...
Click to expand...

A few small things. Not extremely important but just a bit annoying when almost everything is 10/10 when it comes to amusement factors. I have read a lot here and there the past months, some of the comments are my own..

Players from U.S.? Grand Prive? Not ok! I don´t mean moaning about new games and those things. Affiliates have to be paid!

Paytables at slots, the paytables sometimes say things that is not true if you read the more detailed one. One example is Alaskan Fishing where the paytable clearly says: ALL wins are doubled during free spins when bonus game wins are not doubled.

Casino software: I can see the advantages with the new software, but it still runs slow on most computers. It doesn´t look as nice as the old one either. I can guess that there is a better one coming but I prefer the old one so far. The new one looks blurry compared to the old.

Casino tournaments: Many players find it odd that you can play same tournament several times just because you can log in to a different casino and play again. Players compare this with two users at a poker table.
 
My question should be an obvious one:

Why does Microgaming continue to allow people to use multiple accounts/skins to register for the SAME TOURNAMENTS, thus cheating the legitimate players out of a fair shot at winning?
 
What about the old games that were taken down. In JANUARY I was told by an operator that there was a problem with these games and the new lobby tabbed gaming feature, in that if one (or more) of these 8 games was being played in a tabbed environment, the overall balance was not tracked correctly. I was told this would be fixed in "about 2 weeks", and the games would return.

These games are STILL present in EVERY casino using the old lobby, but have NOT returned to the rest. This is more like 2 MONTHS, rather than 2 weeks. It seems par for the course, the other issues with the new lobby ONLY working well on "supercomputers" has been around just as long, yet there is STILL no sign of a corrective patch, despite there having been 2 further monthly updates.

This week, I noticed that the 8 games have returned at Grand Mondial, AND on the new tabbed lobby. Presumably the balance tracking issues were recently fixed, so WHY ARE WE WAITING for this to be rolled out across the board?

Ultimately, many of these issues are down to the complete lack of information coming out of MGS about the software, and upgrades. The technical troubleshooting advice is YEARS out of date, and refers to the early Viper software, and even the earlier Thumper lobbies. Nearly all of the information is useless. There is NO WAY that Viper works on the so called min PC specifications quoted, even machines at the top end more than 2 years old have considerable problems.

Players attempting to upgrade their kit, or purchase new kit, have no idea what is needed. Some are going quad core, some are increasing RAM, and others are going for better video cards. MGS are saying NOTHING about which of these will be worthwhile, and which are just a waste of money.

Going quad core is probably one of the "waste of money" upgrades, since unless Viper is coded with multiple core support, it will make little or no difference. A better video card may be the best way, but how big? There is no guidance as to how much graphics memory the Viper client needs to run the full 5 tab experience - the obvious upgrade would be to a card that has all the required memory "on board", rather than have the software using the paging file, or system RAM, to support the graphics. In turn, this may mean that a poor video card causes so much RAM and paging file space to be grabbed by the software, that the PC as a whole slows right down.

The vast majority of players will be using "off the shelf" PCs, and only a few will have the high end gaming machines that already have the best of everything. The players with these high end machines are probably the ones saying "problems, what problems, the new lobby works fine for me".

MGS tournaments - when these were new, they played much, much, faster than now - currently, they are far too slow to be entertaining. Too much time is spent waiting for the result. When I play, I expect to be able to hit the "spin" button as fast as I can, and for the game to keep up with me. This DOES happen in the normal lobby versions of the games, but no longer in the tournament versions. The struggle to keep pace with MY spin rate often has the tournament server disconnecting me for short periods of a few seconds, btu sometimes it's a full disconnect, with a boot from the game, and inability to reconnect. The roll out of more servers ahead of the "Grand Slam" has made ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE to performance. It seems MGS simply added to the load through other changes, most notably now allowing one entry per casino, rather than per person, which has more than taken up the extra capacity from the new servers.

I hardly play the MGS tournaments now, but I once played them regularly, and PAID for many of them too!
 
Pretty much been said here. Hate the querky, jerky slow crawling spins. Hate the long load and refresh between every game, I can go make lunch waiting on some games to load. Hate hearing the fan in my computer kicking on everytime I play.
 
Ask them if they would be prepared to put something in place that gave the casinos the option to display the theoretical returns on slot games.

Also, see if you can find out if they can vary them from casino to casino and if so, how the process for changing the RTP is dealt with :)
 
Instead of just asking them why they allow cheating in their tournaments, how about asking them to allow an audit of their tournaments.

Not just to indicate all the players who are cheating, but for the players to be told the truth about the RTP of the tournys.
 
Mavin1 said:
Pretty much been said here. Hate the querky, jerky slow crawling spins. Hate the long load and refresh between every game, I can go make lunch waiting on some games to load. Hate hearing the fan in my computer kicking on everytime I play.
Click to expand...

I have noticed this too, and it is the games that are particularly slow that cause my fan to REALLY rev up like my tower is preparing for take-off. When I exit the game, the fan immediately reacts by slowing down to it's normal speed. Enter the game again, and sure enough, it revs for take-off again. This ONLY happens with the new lobby, and these games ONLY play very slow ON the new lobby (well, the ones MGS didn't REMOVE that is, I can't test the other 8).

I fail to see how merely making the lobby window bigger had such a MONUMENTAL and negative impact on the ability of my PC (which was top of the non-gaming range) to run it.
 
re. Grand Prive: I have located a record of my actual stats on an old computer but haven't had a chance yet to hook it up long enough to pull all the data. It will show without a doubt that the figures given to eCOGRA were selective and legacy players were excluded.

Grand Prive owes me at least 10 times what they propose to pay.

I also have located the previous aff managers who should be able to give information about the missing data.

Sorry I don't have all this ready yet, too much has been going on (such as ddos attacks and the resulting introduction of additional security).
 
micro issues

Hi all,
to me it also would be very interesting to have microgaming elaborate on the whole tourney aspect,
I havent read anything about it on the forum yet, will search for it after this post, but i base this purely on my own experience, and have posted this in other less respected forums i visit.
Either microgaming themselves, or the exploitees of the software, are cheating, benefiting specific players, or players are cheating, or have a system where they maybe share the prizepool, and something with comps to even it out.
I feel these are the only options possible, cause i am certain that the majority of online gamblers, and more specifically tourney players, cant be as idiotic as too invest so much in a tourney, they couldnt possibly win anything even with first place...
Therefore, i suggest microgaming themselves, or the exploitees should asap change the format of the tourneys.
Naturally i expect that they will also keep these rebuy tourneys alive, as it must be a great income source.
But on the other hand, to take away any doubt, that exploitees or microgaming themselves condone cheating, or do it themselves, they are almost obligated to increase the platform with 0 rebuy tourneys, and if continues must be implemented, make them free of any cost.
(tourney entry $0, continues 50, continue cost $0)
i know it can be done, as recently, when i was complaining @ support and my vip manager in GOwildcasino, they stated that they where aware of the fact, and are going to, or are even now introducing "skill" tourneys in this manner.
I did see one or two come by, but i think microgaming has to enforce a fair, and overwhelmingly bigger platform then the current one, with these kind of rules.
This would bring back trust, fun and fairness into their operation.
I love them, but this is a major issue to me, an i also agree on the previous posts.
cheers
D.S
 
Jasminebed said:
I am far less happy with the MG casinos that have implemented the new lobby. The fruities which include skill stops do not always stop. It would be nice if they offered us unsatisfied players a roll-back version. I would sacrifice the new games in order to have my favourites back playing well.
Click to expand...

I have seen this too, the game often fails to respond to the mouse clicks. I have seen this when I click on spin sometimes. It's NOT a matter of it being slow, IT JUST DOES NOT RESPOND TO THE ACTION. There is better response to the space bar though, which also controls spin & skill stop. Again, the slowness causes a delay in the response, so a far greater number of skill stops are missed. Playing these games is like communicating commands to a lunar rover, you have to anticipate, and give the command BEFORE the action unfolds, just like scientists controlling a lunar rover have to allow for the time delay caused by the finite speed of light.

The effects were illustrated with devastating consequences by an accident I once saw a documentary about. Someone was controlling some kind of test rig through radio control, but inadvertantly, the link went via a satellite, so there was a short delay between issuing a corrective command, and the rig responding. The result of this delay was that the tester lost control of the rig, and corrective actions only made this worse, because the tester was expecting them to work in real time, thinking the radio link was direct as it should have been. The rig crashed, killing the tester. This effect has been reproduced in experiments where human testers are asked to control something, but unknown to them, a delay is added between their command, and the action being taken. It shows that even the simplest machines are completely uncontrollable in this environment. When this happens with a mere video game, it's the same problem, although the consequences are frustration, rather than potential injury, damage, or death.
 
Hi CM (all),

Not so much a question but a statement.

The sluggish performance that peeps are reporting seems to be a software glitch more so that system issue (rig lacking guts).

Firstly the games are no 3D they are 2D and use flash (yes the download version uses flash for it bonus slots...ect).

Meaning a graphics card with 128ram, on a P4 2.8 and a couple of gig ram should power these games. But it doesn't, I tested it on a stand by rig here with a old Nvidia Geoforce 6200 and the thing sh#t itself.

I have a high end gaming rig and when all 5 game tabs are open and playing, I initially have to minimise the software and then maximise it, only then do the game spin at million miles an hour.

I also have found that unless I follow this routine when first start playing Isis or Brank da Bank Again, it's as if the reels are in slow mode and man they are really jerky.

The fact that minimising the software the maximising fixes the jerky reels, points to it being a software compatibility issue, crap coding or both.

Really though, with the system I have (it's a beast) I shouldn't have to do this procedure to play 2D casino games.

So I can sympathise with players who are not running high end gaming rigs.

Edit: I purchased the new game Metro 2033 (insanely system intensive, am running that on ulta high (eye candy) everything. My rig handles this like a walk in the park. So it's obviously the new MGS software that's the issue and not people's rigs.


Cheers

:)

Dave
 
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on that note, i also have a nice gaming rig, not the latest, but i would feel that also a 9800GTx+ supported by three gigsram and 3.5ghz dual core, would have no issue with simple flash, however, microgaming proved me different, this sometimes gives me the feeling that microgaming software is doing lots of other things then just being my slotmachine...
 
incrediblestuff said:
on that note, i also have a nice gaming rig, not the latest, but i would feel that also a 9800GTx+ supported by three gigsram and 3.5ghz dual core, would have no issue with simple flash, however, microgaming proved me different, this sometimes gives me the feeling that microgaming software is doing lots of other things then just being my slotmachine...
Click to expand...

This has me thinking... We have been here before with MGS, and a much earlier lobby. A coding error lead to a process getting stuck in an infinite loop. It was the "mupdate" process, which checks for updates, and installs them. It should only happen ONCE, and ONLY when something has been changed, and needs to be installed. When it went wrong, it found the updates, installed them, but DIDN'T PROPERLY RECORD IT, so the process repeated itself, reinstalling the exact same updates again and again and again and again......... you get the picture;)
This happened during play, so the games were really slow and jerky ALL THE TIME. Players did know that the montly update would cause a TEMPORARY slowing in performance, and many got into the habit of launching & leaving their casinos to take the updates, and only playing when they were done.

Maybe there is some process present only in the new lobby that is also running in the background as an "infinite loop", and sucking large amounts of system resources such that the effects are noticeable, even on high spec systems. The AWP games seem particularly seriously affected by this, the others less so.

When using tabbed gaming, the games running in the tabs slow right down to about one third normal speed (this is using the same autoplay settings). Oddly enough, the one game left in full screen plays MUCH faster than the ones running in the tabs. Switching between games requires minimisation & maximisation of the lobby, otherwise the speed halves.

I have also found that the lobby freezes, and can ONLY be shut down using the task manager, the window itself is blocked, and there is an error beep, and no response, when attempting to click on ANYTHING. It appears to me that this is down to the lobby opening an "invisible message window", which CANNOT be accessed, therefore the message window CANNOT be closed, which means NOTHING ELSE other than task manager can close down the casino.

Today, I had another. A minimised casino lobby refused to maximise, and I couldn't even close it using right click on the minimised task bar tab. It was yet another job for the task manager.

This is evidence of "crap coding", and where there is some, there is probably more. The "crap coding" explanation for the new lobby problems, and the tournament problems is the more credible, yet operators and MGS STILL insist it is all down to the player's kit, and seem uninterested in pursuing a proper investigation. Even those operators that DO press forward with an investigation find they get stonewalled by MGS - they send their findings to MGS, and they are buried there.
 
incredible from a software provider that makes so much money, to not want to invest proper, or maybe they put everything on protection of code/antihax etc, with the price we in the end pay as players, of deadly slow software with high resource demand..
also possible
seems like Meister has lots of talking to do:)
 
The minimize/maximize trick works here also, after changing games this has to be done, otherwise the new game is totally unplayable.

One thing I noticed is that the longer I keep the screen minimised, the faster the game will play.
But after 50-100 spins, depends on the game a bit, it slows down again.
It also slows down after a freespinround, but not half as bad as after switching games though.
So I always min/max the screen after a freespinround too.

But the troubles started with the November update last year, THATS the one that slowed down the games and made them look sluggish.
Things got even worse with the new lobby in Januar, because the older games got transferred to a higher resolution, but I'm 100% sure the MAIN error is in the November 2009 update!!
 
incrediblestuff said:
incredible from a software provider that makes so much money, to not want to invest proper, or maybe they put everything on protection of code/antihax etc, with the price we in the end pay as players, of deadly slow software with high resource demand..
also possible
seems like Meister has lots of talking to do:)
Click to expand...

Given that all results are generated on the server, and the client is merely there to display them, and send player instructions back to the server, there is little to hack client side that would be of serious consequence. As the Jackpots Heaven case shows, there is NO protection against theft of client content, and MGS actually make this EASY, because images are simply stored as bitmaps, rather than encrypted data. Jackpots Heaven copied several symbols, as well as MGS games, and after a few superficial changes, claimed them to be the product of their own 8 years of development.



Maybe the November update introduced the bug, but few noticed. When the new lobby was introduced, it magnified the effects of the bug to the extent that almost everybody noticed a downgrade in performance.

To determine what went wrong, someone would have to have access to the source code, and understand it. They would also need to know exactly what changes were made in November, as well as those made for the new lobby, and understand how these interact with the average home PC, and other software likely to be running on home PCs. This is CLEARLY a job for the programmers at MGS, yet they are simply passing the buck to operators, and down to players, saying it is all a result of problems with their PC, and/or setup.

This is bollocks, and since some casinos still run on the old lobby, I can compare between them, and it's CLEARLY the case that it is the change to the new lobby that has caused the problems, and NOT something that happened to my PC last Autumn.
 
As a webmaster it would be irresponsible not to ask why Grand Prive still operates under a microgaming license/ software.

<--Delete too speculative-->

Overall why has microgaming become so sloppy, the knee jerk gaming software, dishonest microgaming's licensed operators behaving badly, in general why microgaming appears to have let their professionalism go.

greek39
 
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Just to keep you abreast, most of the today was spent reviewing this thread with the MGS execs and technical team.

I'll be putting together the responses over the course of a couple of days, and posting them here.

If there are further comments/questions, please don't hesitate to continue posting them since they will continue to monitor this thread.
 
OK - if you insist :)

Can you ask if the Netbook max resolution (1024x600) issue has been fixed on the new download casino. Last time I tried (32Red), you couldn't only the software size enough and the buttons to control game couldn't be seen or reached. You couldn't even reposition the software to see them.

And if it hasn't already been mentioned: Any chance of an option to choose not to have auto-install of the games? Make it like Cryptologic perhaps? It's probably OK on a powerful machine, but my 1.6ghz PC can't handle it so the slots are unplayable (10-20 second spins) until the whole suite has downloaded which, last time I tried, took over 12 hours LOL. Note: Playtech software does this but for some reason, the games are still quite playable while the other games are downloading.

Experienced players know to expect this I suspect, but newbies to MG might think the softwre is knackered. Even a warning, or the option to select a category of game to download would be an improvement.

Cheers

Simmo!
 
nice to know your reading this, mr and ms microgaming!
seriously, i think getting in to the tourney structure
(i suppose rumors of disgruntlement here and there must have reached you already) would be very wise.
I again will refer to GO wild, as thats the only casino so far that has to my knowledge new kinds of tourneys, with fair "luck" chances for everyone.
i had some contact with their nice support, and spoke to my vip manager just today, i promised her i would set up a nicely compiled list, which she promised to redirect in some form or another to upper management, i suppose if they get to see it, so will you...
but since you are monitoring, i will put the list here:

there are several instances where the one nickname, has been in different places in the same tourney, which is of course intolerable, as you share tourneys throughout different groups, it must be an easy task to eliminate the possibillity, that an identical nick, even if playing at separate casinos, can be automatically picked out. and punished.
these are not the only issues, it is obvious that in several casinogroups a group of players, are dominating the top places of the freerolls with rebuys, where in most cases their roi is close to negative.
easily calculated seeing the number of coins left, versus the win box, the time per continue, and the average return per spin, even calculating in the possibillity of a few big hits.
point being, that they either are playing for free, as i was once able too on the invitation of support, or they have some kind of scheme.
even if these both wouldnt apply, the fact that people on fora talk about this possibillity, cant be good for business.
so lets assume that it is a group of players, and they are only in competative spirit, playing against eachother, not for the money, but the honor (right)
lets assume then that of course. the casinos are aware of this. (there is no way that couldnt be the case)
take in the loss of interest from 60 procent of your regular player, who of course after a while sees these tourneys as uninteresting, cause of the meager possibillity to win anything, even when coming in first.
that is bad for your business, in two ways:
1
players lose trust, as they dont understand how a casino would support this other then not caring for the fairness of the game e.g. the happiness of their regulars, but only for money.
2
less players who would consider a rebuy, would actually participate, which would benefit that particular group of players even more, again resulting in point 1

and this in the best case scenario.
i can understand that at the current rate, these tourneys are an important or attractive source of moneyflow.
nevertheless, you are experienced in the business, and will know that in the end trust and appreciation will prevail over anything to maintain a succesfull operation.

therefore i would like to see an even balanced tourney pool, where the rebuyers (the close to no profit ones) can have their go, an then a simple, really free tourney, with either free continues, no continues, or one or five rebuys tops.
this wouldensure that even if the crazy rebuyers, will have exactly as much chance of winnig as the regular player with a brain.
(i say that cause even if the other players would have a 2$ win after 500 rebuys, they will have invested more time/energy, then anyone could/would for that amount)
might even be a scam from those players, who knows: laundering money,
comp points vs tier profits, there are possibilities, but im sure you have a better grip on that then me.
i hope that you agree this isnt good for both sides, and will act to enforce some kind of "fifty fifty" rule amongst your operators. as for the future tourney platform
you know what i mean right?
if not just ask and i will answer.
i do love microgaming, and it is still to me the most solid, trustworthy softwareprovider, where i usually wouldnt even think twice before signing up @ a new casino, but this point, and of course the other issues in this thread, are important to lots of players.

thanks for listening to the rant.
cheers
 
To MGS: I would like to repeat myself, please, please do look into the Grand Privee matter. It sets such a bad precedent and it hurts the MGS as well as eCOGRA image among affiliates badly.

I am always available to talk this over and to provide factual info and answer any questions you may have.

It's not just that I would like to be paid what I am owed myself, I have pretty much written it off. It's because it would be nice to re-establish the trust - and to just see that this industry can take care of it's own even without regulation.

Please do feel free to establish direct communication with me - I will do my very best to be helpful in determining what exactly happened.
 
What about a win

Maybe Mg
Could give a litttle back.
Ive been playing mg for over 2 years now ,and i cant remember a cashout.
i dont play heavy because i would only lose it `quicker.
not everybody has 5000 to dep before a win or even a balance in there account.but iam getting close..
I think they should spead the wealth around.
Happy Customer always Comes Back !!
Zack
 
Casinomeister said:
Just to keep you abreast, most of the today was spent reviewing this thread with the MGS execs and technical team.

I'll be putting together the responses over the course of a couple of days, and posting them here.

If there are further comments/questions, please don't hesitate to continue posting them since they will continue to monitor this thread.
Click to expand...

Perhaps MGS could have a rep here, to get feedback from players about the issues with the software, and answer software based questions. I do NOT envisage any MGS rep being expected to respond to OPERATOR issues, but ONLY software ones. The problem is that operators are generally pretty hopeless when it comes to PROPER help with software issues, and there is simply NO path of contact with someone who CAN provide help. Even when operators say they have referred a problem back to MGS, this is the last ever heard of it, there is almost NEVER a return answer, and the player NEVER receives the help needed.

Generic tips are sometimes issued, but if they don't work, there is no-one to ask for further assistance, operators ONLY have access to the same generic tips issued by MGS, which presumably are the result of the problems from players being regarded as "feedback", rather than issues that need to be solved before a player can actually get a casino to work for them.

The software itself should work on ALL machines, not just the privileged few as it seems at present. The PC market has changed, but MGS simply have not kept up, and many MODERN (less than 2 years old) are totally incapable of running MGS Viper casinos that SUPPOSEDLY work on machines with the level of power seen a DECADE ago. Even now, EVERYTHING except the AWP games SUPPOSEDLY still work on Windows 98SE, which has been a laughable concept for YEARS now - this "self help" advice is in dire need of a review and update.

It has long been impossible to so much as INSTALL Viper on a 98SE machine, let alone RUN one (not that it would).

For those players moaning about installing the whole suite of games every time, IT SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING, so WHY IS IT!!! The games have long since been held in a common cache, so any new MGS casino installed should ALREADY have the full game suite available to it, and should NOT therefore be spending hours in the game installation phase.

Will this meeting make a difference? - well, I for one am not holding my breath - and this is based on experience.
 
I like the idea about having a MG rep here at Casinomeister. Since there are many online casinos under WG software, a lot of issues are raised by players, and not all issues could be solved with CS only.
 
vinylweatherman said:
...Will this meeting make a difference? - well, I for one am not holding my breath - and this is based on experience.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah it makes a difference. I've met with MGS before, and it's usually a brief "howdy do, have you heard of this issue or that?" lasting about 15 minutes. This was an actual sit down board meeting that lasted several hours.

I'll be going over my notes and addressing the questions brought up here later today :D
 
I bet they wont say anything about the recent poker fiascos. The only comment from them this year was a cease and desist to the owner of the domain microgamingscandal.com (who personally lost 205k in the TUSK meltdown).

They played a significant role in TUSK:

At the end of 2005, Rednines contacted Microgaming (then named Prima Poker) to explore the possibilities of becoming a skin into the Microgaming network.

We were advised by Microgaming to contact Tusk to get a deal through them instead, since they had a deal in place with Microgaming which made it possible for new partners to get a skin up and running within days.

This process is known as a white label solution, which means that our work on Rednines.com would basically be to get players, and get a revenue share of these players. In other words, Tusk / MyPokerProfit.com would take care of everything from Payment Gateways, holding on to player funds, dealing with Microgaming and handling customer support.

The only information we had access to was the players signed up through Rednines.com, we could see their names, emails and their current rake. We had no way of even making a deposit to a players account without going through Tusk / MyPokerProfit first. In fact any poker room related issue had to go through TUSK.

Later on was followed up by this:
Rednines.com is no longer running, along with BattlefieldPoker.com and several other white label solutions of Tusk / MyPokerProfit. Microgaming has not reached out to us, nor have we been able to get a hold of anyone with a say in Microgaming that could help us solve what happened. Even though it is several months since Tusk went bankrupt we have at several occasions tried to get a hold of someone that could take responsibility for what happened - unfortunately without success.

I have been told by many that they feel Rednines.com should pay up for player balances and their losses, and I can understand their frustration. The problem is that we never saw any of these deposits, we simply got a revenue share for our players rake. This was around $25,000 gross profit every month for the months we were operative. Microgaming was actually making a bigger profit than us on our players.

I would like to see Microgaming take a stand in this matter, and be the responsible party, which means they should pay for the player balances.
 
Weighted video slots!

Please ask MG about their weighted video slots. Some of their oldest video-slots are actually not video-slots.

I suggest they eigther pull the slot, make it clear they are NOT video-slots or implement them as true video slots. There are many threads in this forum about it.

Zoozie
 
Okay - I'm going to do my best trying to answer some of the questions here from what I have.

In a nutshell - the meeting was prompted by some of the misconceptions that the general public - myself included - had concerning a number of issues that have risen lately, and to answer questions that I - and forum members have that deal with MGS and its operations.

The Grand Prive affiliate fiasco was a big subject, but I'd like to deal with this in a separate thread if you don't mind since that item seems to garner a lot of attention, and I'm going to try and address the majority of the questions here.

To begin with, I need to stress that I am conveying this information as objectively as possible. There are quite a few people who can't differentiate facts (or statements from others) from opinions. I'm being as objective as possible, so bear with.

Some misconceptions about the software provider (MGS)
MGS bails out failed casinos
MGS holds players funds or has access to player data
MGS changes their RTP
MGS has slacked up on due diligence
MGS doesn't care about their players
MGS can yank licenses at a whim
MGS doesn't care what GP does

Some of these misconceptions are the result of how this industry has changed over the past decade. This industry has grown incredibly.

In the beginning, most casinos ran with one software provider and that was it. Nowadays we have corporate giants like Ladbrokes, Unibet, etc., who may use MGS for their casino games, but utilize a number of others - Ladbrokes has 11, Unibet 9 - if Ladbrokes were to go belly up tomorrow, would MGS be expected to bail out the players? If so, how would it be possible to figure out which software provider is responsible for which players.

If the Wynn Casino goes belly up, would we expect IGT to cover the players' losses? That would be like having a conversation with a houseplant. No one would be listening.

MGS is not allowed to deal directly with players. Not because they don't want to, but because they can't by law. The regulations on the Isle of man state that if you don't have a gaming license - you don't deal with players - simple as that. It's the operators and licensing jurisdictions that are accountable for these sort of things.

Of course, if there are problems of players not getting paid etc., MGS needs to hear about it. They care about players - always have. But over the past few years, players' perceptions have changed, and that's one thing that needs to be addressed.

Operators are solely responsible for their marketing. MGS has nothing to do with this. It's considered "b2b" and if/when there are problems in this realm - it's the operators who need to answer. To go further on this, gaming jurisdictions generally won't touch it either since they consider this b2b as well. Marketing has nothing to do with player issues. Caveat Emptor when it comes to affiliate and media buyers. Affiliates are responsible for their own business decisions - same goes for the casinos.

RTP - once a game is developed, the RTP is set in stone and that's it. It's never changed.

Due diligence - the casino must be licensed by a jurisdiction that offers gaming licenses. Casino offices are visited and probity checks are made on the owners. They only accept gaming licenses from around six jurisdictions or so.

It's not MGS or any other software provider that puts a casino in business - it's the investors. The software is the gaming platform.

US players. There is too much commercial uncertainty in the US market; the laws are still unclear, and in the long run - it's just not worth it.

Yanking licenses. MGS does not have the power to yank an operator's gaming license.

GP? I'll discuss that in another thread.

uungy said:
Would be interesting to know if they have they taken any steps recently to prevent casinos disappearing into the big black hole.

I think Microgaming should have give a new casino the choice of either being licensed by a reputable licnese such as the UK licensing or Kahnawake (who seem to be pulling their act together of the late) and Alderney, failing that, they ought to have a "reserve" with Microgaming, the funds wont be used for arbitration, but only in the event they go belly up.
Click to expand...
Again - MGS holds no player funds and cannot deal with player issues. I think Kahnawake is the only non-white-listed jurisdiction that is accepted by MGS.

My observation is that casinos generally don't fall into black holes. Normally when a business fails, its bought up by other operators.

Where it gets problematic is with poker. Many poker rooms aren't fully licensed because some jurisdictions consider this peer-to-peer or skill games - thus no need to license.


De Beuker said:
...

The biggest problem I have with MG are the softwarechanges that made the older games almost unplayable when beeing on anything less than a quadcore with a dedicaded 512MB or more videocard...
Click to expand...
The software issues are important to nail down. Some are known issues, some may be computer specific. Their suggestion for everyone that is having a specific problem is to contact the casino rep here in the forum and have them contact MGS. If you have difficulties doing this, please let me know.

What I am stressing here is that operators must be made to perform. Put them to task to solve these problems.

spiderlegz said:
...Plus any comments why they directed skins (at least RedNines) to TUSK/MPP when "everyone" should have seen that it was slowly being drained out of money. How much rake did they get from the TUSK poker players over the years?

And why they had no problems allowing Linx Group opening a casino (Linx casino) when the whole group was close to bust. How much rake did they get from the Eurolinx poker players over the years? (BetOnBet was "too fresh" in the Linx stable)

Apparently they do zero due diligence on tho whom they license their software. Is that going to change? E: so that we dont see any new multimillion fiasco in the future.
Click to expand...
One thing about rake - they don't get nearly the amount of rake that a lot of players are assuming. The cap on rake is 3 per game for poker and MGS receives a very small percentage of this. So it's stretching it a bit when you're referring to a multi-million dollar fiasco.
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As for the Linx group - they did check Jo Remme out. They knew about the article that appeared in some newspaper tying him in with a pyramid scheme but with further investigation there was no arrest records or court dates. It was only a newspaper article.

gloria460 said:
What if anything they are going to do about the Amercan players. How is it still possible to play in a MCG casino but be denied excess to new games and progressives? It doesn't make any sense..what if an American player hit a big sum on one of the slots?... they would find a way to pay him so either deny all American players or let us have everything.:D
Click to expand...
Like I mentioned, US players are going to have to get used to playing elsewhere.

maphesto said:
...

Paytables at slots, the paytables sometimes say things that is not true if you read the more detailed one. One example is Alaskan Fishing where the paytable clearly says: ALL wins are doubled during free spins when bonus game wins are not doubled.
Click to expand...
They are looking into this.

maphesto said:
Casino tournaments: Many players find it odd that you can play same tournament several times just because you can log in to a different casino and play again. Players compare this with two users at a poker table.
Click to expand...
Ah, I thought the same until it was explained to me (even though I could have figured this out on my own. There is a difference here. Poker is arguably a game of skill. If a guy has more than one account at the same poker table, or is privy to another's hand, that's collusion and thus cheating. If a person has more than one entry into a slot tourney (a game of chance) he's not affecting the outcome of the game. He is upping the pot by signing up numerous times. Compare this to a lottery. You can purchase as many tickets as you want and this ups the pot as well. It's basically the same thing. They will still be looking into this, but that's their take on it.

Roanan said:
My question should be an obvious one:

Why does Microgaming continue to allow people to use multiple accounts/skins to register for the SAME TOURNAMENTS, thus cheating the legitimate players out of a fair shot at winning?
Click to expand...
See the above answer.

Mavin1 said:
Pretty much been said here. Hate the querky, jerky slow crawling spins. Hate the long load and refresh between every game, I can go make lunch waiting on some games to load. Hate hearing the fan in my computer kicking on everytime I play.
Click to expand...
Again, this is something they will be investigating. Contact the casino rep (most MGS casinos have one here) and tell them to forward your issue to MGS.

Simmo! said:
Ask them if they would be prepared to put something in place that gave the casinos the option to display the theoretical returns on slot games.

Also, see if you can find out if they can vary them from casino to casino and if so, how the process for changing the RTP is dealt with :)
Click to expand...
Listing their RTP per game makes them a little squeamish since this is something their competitors would love to have. I don't see that happening. They might start listing the RTP per type of slot (9 line, etc.) at the moment I think eCOGRA publishes RTPs, but it's slots across the board.

Like I stated earlier, the RTP is set during development and once it's launched it's set in stone. These aren't differentiated from casino to casino.

SlotMonster said:
I would like to know their opinion about implemeting Randomness Control on MG games (at least for Slots).
Click to expand...
No comprende mi amigo. :p

Didn't quite get what you mean there.

Jasminebed said:
I am far less happy with the MG casinos that have implemented the new lobby. The fruities which include skill stops do not always stop. It would be nice if they offered us unsatisfied players a roll-back version. I would sacrifice the new games in order to have my favourites back playing well.
Click to expand...
They can't do roll back versions because of the support issue. It was just too much to deal with.

Again, I'll start another thread to deal with the GP stuff.
incrediblestuff said:
incredible from a software provider that makes so much money, to not want to invest proper, or maybe they put everything on protection of code/antihax etc, with the price we in the end pay as players, of deadly slow software with high resource demand..
also possible...
Click to expand...
I wouldn't rest a lot of weight on the assumption that a company makes bucket loads of money. For some people it works fine, others it doesn't. They test the new games on every imaginable type of computer from the clunkers running Windows ME, to the newest thing you can get at Costco.

But this is a major issue that they are trying to address. Perhaps when players sign up, they'll get a package of the newest games plus a few more. And receive the rest (all 400) on disc in the mail.

I don't know, but operators need to be put to task on this if this is a computer specific issue.

vinylweatherman said:
Perhaps MGS could have a rep here, to get feedback from players about the issues with the software, and answer software based questions. I do NOT envisage any MGS rep being expected to respond to OPERATOR issues, but ONLY software ones. The problem is that operators are generally pretty hopeless when it comes to PROPER help with software issues, and there is simply NO path of contact with someone who CAN provide help. Even when operators say they have referred a problem back to MGS, this is the last ever heard of it, there is almost NEVER a return answer, and the player NEVER receives the help needed...
Click to expand...
One thing that I've suggested it to have a comprehensive FAQ on the MGS site - or even here in fact - that addresses all of these types of issues. One of the grand failures of this industry is good sensible communication.

Another thing is to have an updated "known issues" concerning the software. Certain games are blurry, etc. Most of the tech issues have reasons behind them and they are being dealt with. It would be good to see evidence like this to illustrate that these issues are known and being dealt with. An RSS feed to the casinos would be ideal.

SlotMonster said:
I like the idea about having a MG rep here at Casinomeister. Since there are many online casinos under WG software, a lot of issues are raised by players, and not all issues could be solved with CS only.
Click to expand...
Yeah me too, but this is strictly up to them. Nevertheless, we've had the chance to regroup and get back in touch. It was a very constructive meeting that (I hope) has answered a number of pressing issues.

Edited to add: there is more. I just wanted to get this out so that you have this to rip apart for now :p
 
[strike]Quick question:
MGS is not allowed to deal directly with players. Not because they don't want to, but because they can't by law. The regulations on the Isle of man state that if you don't have a gaming license - you don't deal with players - simple as that. It's the operators and licensing jurisdictions that are accountable for these sort of things.
Click to expand...

Is that a typo there or is that written as intended?

If it's written as intended then I'm afraid I'm confused by this. :confused:[/strike]

Ugh, never mind, my bad.
 
maxd said:
[strike]Quick question:


Is that a typo there or is that written as intended?

If it's written as intended then I'm afraid I'm confused by this. :confused:[/strike]

Ugh, never mind, my bad.
Click to expand...
Yeah, MGS doesn't have the gaming license. This is something the casinos would have :D
 
Yeah, duh me, it took a minute.
 

MG receives 17,5% of the gross rake. And Im fully aware of the concept of rake. And its a multi-million fiasco, both ways. At TUSK players are owed 5,3 million AUD and at Eurolinx/BetOnBet the amount is higher (99% sure from what I have read, Finns already counting to close a million). There are loads of players who pay tens of thousands of rake per year, so pretty sure that MG received at least a couple of millions in rake from the failed rooms. There are players who earned MG more in rake than what they are owed.

And MG directed the skins to TUSK, even they cant deny it, without even checking in what condition the company was. Same like giving a casino license to Linx when they had been in severe financial problems for months.

And if Ladbrokes or Unibet would go bust players would get their money as they are held in segregated accounts.

Edit: the answers from MG was pretty much what I had expected. Empty words and denying responsibility.
 
That pretty much answered my question. Shortly MCG will be pulling the plug on USA players. They are giving operators a chance to be prepared and not suffer too bad a hit.

Thanks!! This will save me money as I don't have but one other casino on my desktop.
 
Tournaments & some

Ah, I thought the same until it was explained to me (even though I could have figured this out on my own. There is a difference here. Poker is arguably a game of skill. If a guy has more than one account at the same poker table, or is privy to another's hand, that's collusion and thus cheating. If a person has more than one entry into a slot tourney (a game of chance) he's not affecting the outcome of the game. He is upping the pot by signing up numerous times. Compare this to a lottery. You can purchase as many tickets as you want and this ups the pot as well. It's basically the same thing. They will still be looking into this, but that's their take on it.
Click to expand...

NO!!

This is NOT what is happening, the prize pot DOES NOT INCREASE ONE PENNY when more players buy in, rebuy, or continue, THIS IS THE "SCAM" that is pissing off players the most. It is UNACCEPTABLE that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT RAKE is taken by operators & MGS for increased participation in the tournaments. NO Poker tournament or lottery would work like this. When more people buy lottery tickets, the prize fund REALLY DOES go up, but in MGS tournaments, the effect of more people buying in is that the top prize actually DECREASES because more positions are paid from the same pot.

MGS can save their breath trying to convince players this is fair, WE AINT THAT STUPID!!!

If players making multiple entries in different accounts, or making 1000 rebuys and continues really DID pile up the value of the prize fund, players would NOT be complaining, we would actually LIKE it!!!!

The issue of the tournament software itself was not really addressed, just the format. WHY IS IT SO F&*^%$£ SLOW compared to "normal" lobby Thunderstruck, Tomb Raider, etc. This was NOT the case when they came out. ANY attempt to "soup up" the client PC only causes numerous "server delays", disconnects, full boots from the tournament, etc. The issue is THEIR end, and they MUST accept this, and improve things. There is absolutely NO logical reason why I shouldn't be able to get Tournament Thunderstruck running at the same 1800 spins per hour that I can easily get from the lobby version, unless the problem is THEIR end.

The idea for an extensive FAQ and known issues brief are good, this would enable players to know what is already being dealt with, so they wouldn't feel the issue has simply been ignored.

Computer specific issues are usually beyond the realm of most players. They are NOT programmers, but users, and use software "as is", and would have no idea where to start when looking at a problem. Even the better informed tend to use off the shelf "tweaking and tuning" software, and accept the changes as a "black box" solution. These do NOT work when it comes to fixing the new lobby.
The ONLY experience I have had where a user end problem can be dealt with by users is with firewalls and anti-virus software, they should have their settings on "ask before blocking", so that they can ensure their software isn't silently blocking their casinos. The advise to turn these products off altogether is both wrong and DANGEROUS, yet this appears to have come from MGS themselves in the guidance to operators.

MGS make a big deal over publishing RTP, but it's a fuss over nothing, and a further insult to the intelligence of players. It is the games themselves they should be worried about, not the RTP figure. Jackpots Heaven didn't steal the RTP, they nicked the games and symbols, and parts of the lobby layout. There was NO protection from this, it was only necessary to download a casino to a PC to carry out this theft of content. Some licensing jurisdictions REQUIRE that the RTP of each game is published to the player, does this mean that MGS will NEVER allow their software to be used if Australia started opening up to offering more gaming licenses.

Another thing we need are proper release notes for each software upgrade, every other consumer software does this. It would consist of a list of bug fixes included, as well as the obvious release of the headline new games.


With US players, MGS have contradicted themselves. First, they try to wriggle out of responsibility for the TUSK fiasco by saying this is purely "b2b", but then seek to micromanage US players, and what games they can play. Although they no longer want to expand their US market share, there is absolutely NO reason why operators, so long as they are continuing to support EXISTING players, cannot allow EVERY game to be played, other than the network progressives where MGS DOES play a part in holding and distributing the prizes through operators, so not strictly b2b.

It should be up to OPERATORS to decide when and if they pull out of the US altogether, existing players included, as it is ONLY they that are commercially exposed to the costs vs profit of supporting US players.

I believe this point is close, and that once getting deposits from US players is no longer profitable, they will be ejected en masse. This will probably happen around summertime, unless something changes.

Due diligence is NOT that good if all MGS are doing is passing the buck to the licensing jurisdiction, many licensing jurisdictions are mostly interested in the revenue, and will rubber stamp all but the worst applications.
 
vinylweatherman said:
I have also found that the lobby freezes, and can ONLY be shut down using the task manager, the window itself is blocked, and there is an error beep, and no response, when attempting to click on ANYTHING. It appears to me that this is down to the lobby opening an "invisible message window", which CANNOT be accessed, therefore the message window CANNOT be closed, which means NOTHING ELSE other than task manager can close down the casino.
Click to expand...

I sent Pat (32Red) an email about this yesterday.

Ever since the last update of the tabbed viper its being randomly disconnecting me. The reels just keep spinning like as if it's a dropped packet.

However when I got to close the lobby, The two tabs appear exit Casino or Cancel and the whole thing locks up. Have to use Task Manager to End Process of casinogame.exe

The most frustrating part it happen at random but seems to happen more often when I'm in a winning streak.

By the time I log back in that winning streak has gone. It's a real pain when your wagering up to $22.50 a spin, finally get a hot streak and because of a software glitch you end up getting shafted :mad:


Cheers

:)

Dave
 
wonderfull that update, however, im still not really satisfied the answer was actualy not on my most important question ^^
but you said there is more.. so i'll just bump it:
MG does in my eyes have the responsibility to ensure that their casino operators, make a fair tourney platform, and are we going to hear more on that subject?
do they take this seriously, or better are they in power to do something about it?
i guess they are the ones that programmed the linked tourney system, so my thoughts would be yes of course.
thank you!
i really appreciate this thread btw!
 
Casinomeister said:
It's not MGS or any other software provider that puts a casino in business - it's the investors. The software is the gaming platform.


Yanking licenses. MGS does not have the power to yank an operator's gaming license.
Click to expand...

Of course they don't since that would be left to the jurisdiction to do BUT, they could yank their licensing of the software gaming platform from said operator...correct?
____
____
 
Firstly thanks for that. Found it very interesting. Interesting to hear from a software perspective
Casinomeister said:
Again - MGS holds no player funds and cannot deal with player issues. I think Kahnawake is the only non-white-listed jurisdiction that is accepted by MGS.

My observation is that casinos generally don't fall into black holes. Normally when a business fails, its bought up by other operators.

Where it gets problematic is with poker. Many poker rooms aren't fully licensed because some jurisdictions consider this peer-to-peer or skill games - thus no need to license.
Click to expand...
I didnt quite understand this. In regards to the casinos, you mentioned they only accept licenses from 6 jurisdictions, yet when it comes to poker, since its p2p they dont care.

The problem is, a license generally should be able to verify the business is actually working, as I believe they request an annual audit. Its no guarentee, however its a help, and I think MG should demand the same for a poker or casino.
 
Casinomeister said:
Okay - I'm going to do my best trying to answer some of the questions here from what I have.


The software issues are important to nail down. Some are known issues, some may be computer specific. Their suggestion for everyone that is having a specific problem is to contact the casino rep here in the forum and have them contact MGS. If you have difficulties doing this, please let me know.

What I am stressing here is that operators must be made to perform. Put them to task to solve these problems.
Click to expand...

Operators must be made to perform?
As I mentioned in my first post, 2 of the largest MG operators, Fortune Lounge and Casino Rewards are still refusing to update most of their casinos to the new lobby because of the overwhelming amount of complaints.
The Palace Group offers their players a rollback to the previous version on request!
Why? See above! (OVERWHELMING amount of complaints)
How many more hints does Microgaming need before they finally realise that there is something seriously wrong with their software at the moment??

I have ofcourse contacted 32RED support about the problems, they responded immediately and contacted Microgaming.
Microgaming then asked me to make a DX Diagnose textfile and send it to them, which I did.
Never heard anything back.
Why not? Because there was nothing wrong with my machine.:rolleyes:

Guess I'll just have to get used to it, its never ever gonna be as good as it was.
And thats a real damn shame!!

Btw, I would love to see those old, crappy test-PC's with the new lobby installed on which the older games are still performing like they did last summer/autumn.
 
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