GP, MGS, and affiliates

[The Dude]

re. Grand Prive: I have located a record of my actual stats on an old computer but haven't had a chance yet to hook it up long enough to pull all the data. It will show without a doubt that the figures given to eCOGRA were selective and legacy players were excluded.

Grand Prive owes me at least 10 times what they propose to pay.

I also have located the previous aff managers who should be able to give information about the missing data.

Sorry I don't have all this ready yet, too much has been going on (such as ddos attacks and the resulting introduction of additional security).

MGS made it clear that the migration between Referspot and Grand Prive's affiliate program did in fact occur. MGS`'s role was to ensure that the software functioned properly - which it did.

My question is - if the migration of players from one program to the other was flawed, why didn't affiliates notice it back then? That doesn't make any sense.

As far as I know, the GP aff program ran for some time before they closed it. Why didn't affiliates complain that the players weren't migrated back in 2007-08?

Is a well known fact in this industry that the lifespan of a player is 3-5 months - bonus beaters about 3-5 days . If you haven't promoted this casino group for three years or so, what is to be expected? This casino group was in various rogue/blacklists for some time. How many of your players would you expect to still be playing there? Do you expect your players to remain loyal to a casino you blacklist? Just some things to kick around...

 

[AussieDave]

Some good points & food for thought too.

What I don't get and NO one can answer it or don't want to answer it...
But leading up to the eCOGRA investigation it was purported that 100's if not 1000's of affiliates had their livelihoods affected by GP.

However only 75 (or so) affiliates submitted claim forms. Unless most of the 100's (1000's) of affiliates were living under a rock when all this was going on, I don't understand why more affiliates (even a couple 100) didn't submit claim forms...

Things like that just don't add up...


Cheers



Dave

 

[spearmaster]

MGS made it clear that the migration between Referspot and Grand Prive's affiliate program did in fact occur. MGS`'s role was to ensure that the software functioned properly - which it did.

My question is - if the migration of players from one program to the other was flawed, why didn't affiliates notice it back then? That doesn't make any sense.

As far as I know, the GP aff program ran for some time before they closed it. Why didn't affiliates complain that the players weren't migrated back in 2007-08?

No one has said that it did NOT function properly when GP still had an affiliate program.

The problem is that we do not know how the integration was done - whether or not a separate script had to be run on a monthly basis to pull in the data from those legacy Referspot players (and presumably not run since the GP affiliate program was shut down).

Simply mapping the players over does not ensure that the correct data is automatically being pulled by the new software. It just means that the basic information has been moved over (ie. name, address, birth date, account number etc.) - it doesn't necessarily mean that gaming data is automatically pulled by the new system WITHOUT help from the old one.

What I want to know is exactly HOW the integration took place and what measures were necessary AFTER the integration in order to make sure that legacy players' gaming data was being updated?

Is a well known fact in this industry that the lifespan of a player is 3-5 months - bonus beaters about 3-5 days . If you haven't promoted this casino group for three years or so, what is to be expected? This casino group was in various rogue/blacklists for some time. How many of your players would you expect to still be playing there? Do you expect your players to remain loyal to a casino you blacklist? Just some things to kick around...

Completely irrelevant - are you SURE that all players quit after 5 months? You do remember that perhaps 5% of players actually visit forums - and thus would've seen blacklists? Do you think that everyone that ever downloaded a casino from a Casinomeister link comes back to read CM regularly? If a player was being treated fairly by a casino, why should he/she leave if the marketer is suddenly not happy with them?

This presumption of lifespan of players needs to be thrown straight into the bin. It has no bearing whatsoever on real player activity. It has the same amount of weight as an "average CPA value" across the board for all players and all affiliates - absolutely ZILCH.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The people best placed to answer the player lifespan question are the affiliates themselves. Many are interested in this fiasco, so they could do their own stats on this from their own record, and pool the data to find out the lifetimes of their players.

I know for a fact that my lifespan at quite a few casinos can be measured in YEARS, and a factor in this is whether loyalty is valued, and service is reasonable. Dropping me like a hot potato from receiving what are billed as "regular loyalty offers" is what makes me stop playing and uninstall. Often though, casinos learn from this, and entice me back by paying more attention to me. It is VERY unusual for me to go so far as close an account, so in my case inactivity would be measured by whether I have played in the past few months. It does NOT mean I will never return.

Grand Prive in this case has sought to narrow the remit of this investigation so matters such as this are NOT looked at, and have supposedly wiped old data from the systems. Affiliates who kept their old data can check it to see what happened when the program closed, and extrapolate it into the year when compensation values were calculated from new data. What should NOT be seen is the "fell off a cliff" scenario, since PLAYERS were not aware this dispute was going on, and were receiving the same level of service from GP as always. Players would NOT have suddenly fled on Dec 1st, it would have been a gradual process of reduction, as old players stopped playing, and no new ones took their place. There will have been some legacy players that remained loyal for YEARS, and it is most of all these that should NOT have suddenly quit on Dec 1st. Old Referspot players who remained active for years should be looked for in the old records, and then their activity extrapolated into the 2009 period. Only when widespread blacklisting of GP occurred would this have caused SOME players to reconsider their loyalty, whatever GP was offering them.

 

[dominique]

MGS made it clear that the migration between Referspot and Grand Prive's affiliate program did in fact occur. MGS`'s role was to ensure that the software functioned properly - which it did.

My question is - if the migration of players from one program to the other was flawed, why didn't affiliates notice it back then? That doesn't make any sense.

As far as I know, the GP aff program ran for some time before they closed it. Why didn't affiliates complain that the players weren't migrated back in 2007-08?

Is a well known fact in this industry that the lifespan of a player is 3-5 months - bonus beaters about 3-5 days . If you haven't promoted this casino group for three years or so, what is to be expected? This casino group was in various rogue/blacklists for some time. How many of your players would you expect to still be playing there? Do you expect your players to remain loyal to a casino you blacklist? Just some things to kick around...

I don't expect players to stop playing at a casino they have played at for YEARS because I blacklist the operator over an aff issue. Maybe a player issue, but not an aff issue. The reason I sent players to Referspot in the first place is because they did have exceptional retention and many players played there for years. That makes me assume they were happy. And that makes me send more players. And that makes it very unlikely that ALL of them, including in the cases of several affs I spoke to, quit at the same time. Not gonna happen over an aff issue. New players may be leery of going there, but someone who has found pleasure in playing there for years isn't gonna quit, in tandem with likely hundreds, overnight, because affs scream foul play. Besides, why would they even think to search for "Grand Prive" on google and see the blacklistings? They needed no info, they were playing there for years.

Many of my players play loyally at the same casinos for years, they may have a list of them they hop between, but they do tend to continue to go where they are treated well.

The transfer of players was anything but troublefree, took months longer than promised, and caused long (now archived) threads at CAP. Some affiliates swear their players were never transferred in the first place.

The transfer, according to comments by the affiliate managers at the time on CAP, was handled by MGS, and it was put on an MGS platform.

When the transfer was complete, there was a "quickstats" section on the first page after login. It displayed Referspot players and Grand Prive players SEPERATELY. You knew exactly which players came from the Referspot legacy, and which didn't. For me, as well as the other affs I spoke to, the compensation offer fit the Grand prive stats, but did NOT include the Referspot legacy. In my case, that means I am owed over ten times what I was offered. The others have similair discrepancies.

The closure of Grand Prive Affiliates happened after MGS decided to withdraw from the US market, and hence affiliates who had previously been prolific now sent few if any players.

These affiliates became a monkey on Grand Prive's back, still needing to be paid according to contract, for as long as the players continued to play there.

Affiliates only get paid by performance - if they make money for the casino they get paid, if they don't, they don't. I really don't see why Grand Prive should be able to continue to profit from our services through this day and into the future without paying as contractually agreed. They are continuing to benefit from our work without having to pay for it. And it causes a lot of ill will among affiliates.

I automatically trusted any program with MGS software - not anymore. That is the worst result of all of this - not that I am out of money, but that I cannot trust contracts in this industry anymore. Nothing keeps anyone from doing with impunity what Grand Prive did. And even with scrutiny from both eCOGRA and MGS, they are succeeding in exactly what they set out to do: Get rid of the monkey on their back. Get rid of the now useless affiliates who are still eligible collect payment for their past services, as long as Grand Prive profits from them.

With the deletion of the aff site - who is to prove anything? Is there a copy rattling around someplace at MGS? Are the people who worked on this transfer still there? Don't they remember the approximate volume? The way the data was fed into the system?

I think if MGS truly wanted the truth, they could find it.

 

[Dave]

My question is - if the migration of players from one program to the other was flawed, why didn't affiliates notice it back then? That doesn't make any sense.

As far as I know, the GP aff program ran for some time before they closed it. Why didn't affiliates complain that the players weren't migrated back in 2007-08?

Gene from casinocrush posted quite a bit about this at the time. The threads are in the password protected area of CAP now, but if you view the Google page below, you can sort of see what the threads were about.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Regarding player lifespan -- dozens of the players I've referred have been playing for years.

 

[dominique]

The transfer itself was issue #1, some affiliates DID lose players then.

Now we are talking about issue #2 - the magical disappearance of active players that WERE transferred correctly.

Should MGS want copies of the CAP threads pertaining to these issues, please contact me.

 

[bonustreak]

There should be several threads on CAP back when this merge happend back in the day I know that myself, Casino Crush and a few others were ripping them apart back then. There is even thread where at the time the casino manager was Iwin I believe who bluntly told me ..well yes this new 1 player login across all the casino sites is cross marketing.. cross marketing is after all standard industry practice! Many times Referspot/GP was called out by myself for shady things and that was when I said we are not going to promote this brand anymore and just earn off the residual income.

 

[AussieDave]

At the GPWA they avoid my question and here now too

 

[spearmaster]

Interesting post by giggles at gpwa:

What i don't understand is back when i was still earning with GP my stats where always split....Grand Prive stats and Legacy stats...now if they still have the GP stats and info, why don't they have the Referspot stats and info...they were both included in our accounts all the way up to the end when they shut down GP......so it makes no sense for them to say they lost, deleted, etc...referspot stats .....?????

Can someone explain to me how they can still have one but not the other..?

Now we're getting somewhere. How is it that there are "legacy" stats and "GP stats"?

This is a very strong signal that there was NOT a complete integration done here.

 

[The Dude]

...Completely irrelevant - are you SURE that all players quit after 5 months? You do remember that perhaps 5% of players actually visit forums - and thus would've seen blacklists? Do you think that everyone that ever downloaded a casino from a Casinomeister link comes back to read CM regularly? If a player was being treated fairly by a casino, why should he/she leave if the marketer is suddenly not happy with them?

It's not irrelevant. Everyone here is speculating - I should be allowed some room to speculate myself.

5%?? You know that's not true - eCOGRA conducted a survey in 2007 that found that 40% of players use message boards. I would speculate that this is higher now three years later.

This presumption of lifespan of players needs to be thrown straight into the bin. It has no bearing whatsoever on real player activity. It has the same amount of weight as an "average CPA value" across the board for all players and all affiliates - absolutely ZILCH.

So - let me get this straight. Affiliates can speculate on the 100s if not 1000s of affiliates owed buckets full of money because they think the are owed something, but I'm not given the opportunity to suggest that the life of the player may have had an effect of their profits. C'mon, be real. Ask any operator (besides GP) on how long their players hang around - on average.

Hell, when I was playing a lot. I only played at the casinos my buddies promoted so I could pound them back to the stone age, remember?
(feel free to chime in any time Simmo! )

Back to the issues. I'm trying my best to understand where the affiliates are coming from, but some things just don't jive.

@ aggrieved affiliates - if you thought that your business was being affected by irregular stats/mishandled migration that happened over two years ago,why did you continue to support and promote these guys? I just can't wrap my head around this.

If this was the case, why didn't ANYONE take them to task on this i.e. hire a lawyer and challenge them? The way it looks to me - and this is strictly an observance - is that the GP affiliates were satisfied with their stats up until GP closed their main affiliate program.

 

[Webzcas]

Like Aussie Dave and also others, I would like to know why only 75 affiliates filed a claim with eCOGRA? However, I also am of the view that if a proper and full audit was carried out, no claims should have needed to be filed.

If eCOGRA were provided with the full data, then they should have quite easily been able to run a report to calculate ALL affiliate accounts and the payments made to them to date.

This is something that MGS would be able to easily assist them with, by writing the script required to query the player database. MGS wrote scripts for us at Ladbrokes all the time, depending on what information we wanted to extract from the database.

Why were affiliates expected to file a claim, when it was not the affiliates doing in closing down the affiliate program? The onus should have been on eCOGRA to get this information. The fact that claims had to be filed, thus further reduces GP's financial exposure - as there would have been some affiliates unaware of the eCOGRA audit.

I have to disagree with you Bryan on your assessement of the average lifetime of a player. Whilst on average you are correct, but there are exceptions to the rule. I have checked the stats of the programs I promote, and I still have some players who I referred as far back as 2005 still playing to this day. I would also bet that affiliates like BonusStreak who eCOGRA deemed was only due $7 ( seven bucks! ) after their audit was complete, has players still playing who she referred as far back as then. I am also guessing in terms of revenue Bonustreak is a larger affiliate than I am.

Also I have heard the total amount due after this audit was $63k across all accounts who filed claims. This seems very low to me. I can guarantee there are many affiliates who earned more than this from one program alone in the last year. Without going into details, one of the programs I promote generated more than this amount in 2009 - and I do not heavily promote them.

This says to me that the majority of affiliates were paid out some form of compensation when the GP Affiliate Program closed, hence they have not been vocal on the forums - it is very noticable who has not been vocal on the affiliate forums compared to the few who have. But I am still of the view that the audit was flawed and eCOGRA were not given access to the entire data required.

Lots of questions and my own observations only - Bear in mind I have no horse in this race as I have never promoted Grand Prive.

 

[spearmaster]

5%?? You know that's not true - eCOGRA conducted a survey in 2007 that found that 40% of players use message boards. I would speculate that this is higher now three years later.

And just how impartial do you think eCOGRA's survey is? I don't mean that they did anything untoward - but that the people they surveyed probably got there from a forum in the first place?

I would speculate that your speculation is nothing more than that.

So - let me get this straight. Affiliates can speculate on the 100s if not 1000s of affiliates owed buckets full of money because they think the are owed something, but I'm not given the opportunity to suggest that the life of the player may have had an effect of their profits. C'mon, be real. Ask any operator (besides GP) on how long their players hang around - on average.

No one disputes the average lifetime of a player, for crying out loud. But that cannot be used as a measuring stick - at site A maybe players last 1 day, but at site B, players have been around for years. How do you apply an industry average to that?

eCOGRA tried to suggest that there was an average value per player that should be paid across the board - and I told them that they could not do this because each site has a different player profile. Using the example above, site A's players might be worth about $10 CPA while site B's players might be worth $1000.

You *cannot* apply an average value or lifetime when you are dealing with *individual* affiliates. Period.

@ aggrieved affiliates - if you thought that your business was being affected by irregular stats/mishandled migration that happened over two years ago,why did you continue to support and promote these guys? I just can't wrap my head around this.

*sigh*

The problem only arose AFTER GP CLOSED DOWN. What is so hard to understand about that? Why do you think I'm asking for details of how the migration worked?

Honestly - take a deep breath and STEP BACK - and then look at it again without any bias.

If this was the case, why didn't ANYONE take them to task on this i.e. hire a lawyer and challenge them? The way it looks to me - and this is strictly an observance - is that the GP affiliates were satisfied with their stats up until GP closed their main affiliate program.

DOH!

Because they WORKED CORRECTLY until GP was shut down and STOPPED importing legacy Referspot data!!!

 

[The Dude]

DOH!

Because they WORKED CORRECTLY until GP was shut down and STOPPED importing legacy Referspot data!!!

Ahh, you finally made sense (to me)

Going back to the eCOGRA survey. The survey was done at the casino level with the casino players. It was not set up from here or any other forums. But that's another topic entirely.

 

[spearmaster]

Ahh, you finally made sense (to me)

YAY! Hallelujah...

 

[dominique]

@ aggrieved affiliates - if you thought that your business was being affected by irregular stats/mishandled migration that happened over two years ago,why did you continue to support and promote these guys? I just can't wrap my head around this.

If this was the case, why didn't ANYONE take them to task on this i.e. hire a lawyer and challenge them? The way it looks to me - and this is strictly an observance - is that the GP affiliates were satisfied with their stats up until GP closed their main affiliate program.

Like I said before, you are melding 2 seperate issues that occurred years apart.

1. the migration

SOME affiliates claim that their players were never migrated. Other affiliates say their players were migrated properly. So I assume there were some glitches in the migration, and it was otherwise successful.


2. the eCOGRA audit

ALL vocal affiliates say that their legacy players were not taken into consideration.

The original migration is mute now, it's been years and it had a LOT of glitches in the process, took much longer than anticipated, and some people fell through the cracks. I don't think there was intent on MGS part to omit data during the migration. Grand Prive did NOT handle the migration itself.

The issue now is the eCOGRA audit, which did not account for any of the previously successfully migrated data (and obviously couldn't account for data that were never originally migrated).

Re Aussiedave's question: Who knows? Affiliates don't all show up at the same office everyday, they are independent and only a small percentage visits message boards. Email addresses change over the years, most of the claims were likely too small to bother (in the eye of the beholder) and whatnot. Also, Grand Prive is said to have taken affiliates that were still productive after the move from the US with them to the (3rd) new aff program, for Fortuna.

Meister and CAP announced the need to submit a claim, GPWA filed a claim on behalf of all it's members. It would have been more fair to just calculate ALL owed monies and then attempt to contact all affected parties.

In brick and mortar issues of similair nature, lawyers would have been given complete lists of aggrieved parties and the lawyers would have contacted the individuals on that list. In this case, supposedly emails were sent to all possibly concerned affiliates by - not sure by whom. AGD had offered to assist in the whole process as an impartial observer - and if that had been accepted, there would not be these kinds of doubts. If AGD had assisted, the missing data would also have been discovered before eCOGRA announced the incorrect results, saving them a lot of grief.

 

[bonustreak]

@ aggrieved affiliates - if you thought that your business was being affected by irregular stats/mishandled migration that happened over two years ago,why did you continue to support and promote these guys? I just can't wrap my head around this.

We said the same thing back in 07 when the management started calling our good depositing players bonus abusers, this after the casino would send them bonus offer after bonus offer and gawd forbid if they player accepted that offer and happen to win! Then players were waiting for weeks for cash outs while management was being moved around etc. Referspot was our biggest sponsor back in the day and we were earning thousands but guess what we put our forum members first and decided to do the right thing and drop them as a sponsor and stand up for the players! There are many that can vouch for this fact and for the fact that many other forum owners continued to support Referspot and send players to them KNOWING players were being treated like chit!

We can be thankful that we are not one of the affiliates thinking we were screwed out of thousands of dollars, because that happened to us years ago and I am well over it by now and moved on...

 

[The Dude]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not confusing anything here. I'm just trying to understand exactly what the affiliates are claiming.

You claim that in your affiliate account there were two sets of data - one set of data for the new players, another for the old players. You feel that when eCOGRA did their audit the old data was disregarded/not included.

But if the players were truly mapped over, then this was the data you were looking at. How could this data not be included? Do you feel this was kept in a separate database?

I'm in the process of gathering more information. Hopefully I'll have more at the end of the weekend/beginning of next week.

BTW - I still stand by my claim about the average lifespan of a player - and I said average, not all - it's only a few months. This can be confirmed with most operators out there.

 

[bonustreak]

I agree about the average life span of a player. I also think if the casino is good at retention they player is going to stay around longer.

 

[spearmaster]

BTW - I still stand by my claim about the average lifespan of a player - and I said average, not all - it's only a few months. This can be confirmed with most operators out there.

I repeat myself again.

No one is arguing about the average lifespan of a player. No one has disputed this at any time.

However, you *still* cannot use this average to justify the low returns that some affiliates received after the audit.

 

[The Dude]

...

However, you *still* cannot use this average to justify the low returns that some affiliates received after the audit.

Maybe they had lots of winners

 

[RobWin]

Maybe they had lots of winners

Let me grab you for just a minute bro...

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/forums/threads/meeting-with-microgaming-what-do-players-want.36887/

Thanks...
____
____

 

[spearmaster]

Maybe they had lots of winners

And maybe they lost lots of players.

I know which horse I'm backing.

 

[dominique]

The average lifespan of a player can vary WIDELY from affiliate to affiliate.

It depends on the type of promotions carried (for example, free chips versus staggered loyalty deposit bonuses) etc. It depends on the demographics of the site in general and the type of player that is attracted by the specific offers. Often lowrollers prefer one type of site, high rollers another. Different age groups, genders and income brackets respond to different sites and offers. Marketing principles apply not only in the brick and mortar world, they apply online too. Usually affiliates who send more players also send players with a lower life expectancy, while affiliates who send players with a high life expectancy send less volume. It also depends on the quality of the promoted casinos in specific, mistreated players leave and go elsewhere, happy players may well stay on for years.

I said earlier, Referspot had very good retention, and this was continued by Grand Prive. Bonus issues affect some types of players, but not others. Affiliates ideally try to make sure the correct casino is matched to each player.

Applying an average is totally unfair. This needs to be calculated seperately for every affiliate, and not by combining everyone in the world wide web. Each case will look very different.

This can send me into a diatribe about how affiliate programs are managed, but I won't sidetrack this thread.

 

[dominique]

All of that aside, if eCOGRA and MGS could find the time and energy to compare notes, the discrepancies would become obvious.

 

[jetset]

I'll be back to argue this issue in more detail later, but for now just a couple of corrections of fact.

1) Despite wide publicity over a period extended to meet affiliate demands, only 58 affiliates came forward with complaints to eCOGRA, with 26 of these found to be valid.

The report also refers specifically to a compensation exercise carried out at the end of December 2008 by GP when it closed its affiliate program, which is presumably the reason for the low number of complaints

2) The following is an excerpt from the public report on the GP review carried out by eCOGRA. The passage concerns calculation of amounts due, including the period Dec 2008 when the program closed, to 31 December 2009 when the review began after a year of affiliates railing against GP and anyone who continued to support them.

Apparently this payment formula was the subject of "robust" discussion with GP, who presumably hoped to settle for a lesser amount:

"In addressing the compensation due to these 26 affiliates, the eCOGRA auditors were able to accurately calculate the outstanding commission owing to each claimant, including the period 1 December 2008, when the program closed, to 31 December 2009 when the investigation began.

"To this has been added an amount to compensate for 'life of player'. The effect of this is that we have implied an average lifetime value for each of these players of over 3 times the actual average lifetime of all Grand Privé players.

3) I concur with Bryan that the average lifetime of an Internet casino player appears to be 3 to 5 months, and the eCOGRA review found this to be the case in the GP database - or the one that was presented to them by GP.

4) The eCOGRA market research into online gambling message board usage was conducted independently by a highly and relevantly qualified team from the University of Nottingham Trent, an establishment used by several large government and other organisations for such work since.

At the time (it was some years ago now) it was the largest such survey ever carried out and involved - if memory serves me correctly - some 11 000 + respondents across a range of countries.

The finding that 40 percent of Internet players used message boards came as a pleasant surprise, and far exceeded that of the conventional wisdom at the time. It was nevertheless based on fact rather than opinion or speculation, and I agree with CM that the figure has likely increased - especially among business-minded affiliates - in the intervening period. Message boards like CM, GPWA and even the disgraced CAP could therefore be described with some justification as effective vehicles to communicate with the vast majority of affiliates.

I'm not an affiliate and therefore admittedly view this issue from the periphery, but my personal opinion is that this issue continues to be overly clouded by personal opinions, individual experience and assumptions and no small measure of emotionalism.

Unfortunately, several affiliate programs appear to have been used by GP, and the consequent database changes appear to have taken place over a period of several years, which has probably complicated the issue when allied to suspected GP manipulation.

MGS has said that it does not possess the affiliate-detailed GP historical information and never has. That is the position the company has clearly stated, and so far I have personally seen nothing that factually supports the assertions of some affilaites that this is BS. It is therefore a matter of opinion.

eCOGRA has reported that it was presented with what as far as it was concerned was the only GP affiliate program database with a mandate to issue a professional public report on its findings in that regard. That it has done, at least clawing back $63 000 for the 26 affiliates with legitimate claims here.

Both organisations have come under attack from affiliates, but in my view the wrong folks are being maligned here, and the many unsubstantiated assumptions that are being made are only confusing the issue further.

In the meantime, GP sits back and washes its hands of the issue, leaving MGS and eCOGRA to take the diverted flak and at times pure conjecture.

I hate to be a pessimist, but my own suspicion is that however unpalatable it may be to accept, affiliates are probably flogging a dead horse here, and the wrong one to boot.

I don't see any sign that GP will collaborate or indeed even communicate further with affiliates, and the fact that it continues to operate suggests to me that blacklisting and adverse publicity on Google and elsewhere over the past 15 months is not bringing that company to its senses - or knees.

After the treatment it has received at the hands of some affiliates following its own well intentioned attempt to resolve this issue, it is unlikely that eCOGRA will again allow its (expensive) professional services to be used in this context.

I therefore wish Dom every success with her independent statistics gathering effort, and the genuine hope that if this is successful it can be put to good use in resolving this dispute with GP - probably through litigation.

Regarding RobWin's repeated query on MGS pulling GP's software licence, we are again faced with the fact that MGS is a business organisation with legal and contractually constrained obligations to its licensees. To arbitrarily pull a licence and inflict business damage without firm and factual evidence of wrongdoing or dishonesty could lay the company open to litigation and perhaps punitive cost recoveries.

MGS therefore has to approach such issues in a strictly objective and legally conscious manner...and thus far it does not appear that there has been sufficient factual evidence adduced to justify such an action.

 

[spearmaster]

I too agree that this should not be an issue of MGS comparing notes with eCOGRA. eCOGRA has done their audit and reported their findings -and while many affiliates may find fault with the result, eCOGRA themselves only worked with the data they were given so they are not at fault there - but they should be admonished for not taking on advice from a number of parties which could have helped make things significantly more clear.

MGS, in the meantime, needs to be shown that there was a clear fault - and at the moment this has not been done, though a data gathering process combined with additional information coming to light may prove to motivate MGS into taking a closer look.

So there we stand. Affiliates need to stand up and put their heads and their information together if they want to see any further action, because GP are clearly not about to do any more than they have already.

 

[dominique]

Jetset, no one says eCOGRA didn't do a proper job with what they were allowed to see.

Yes, affiliates were paid up to the month of closure.

Yes, affiliates who were not a "monkey on GP's back" after the MGS departure from the US, were mapped over to the Fortuna aff program and continue to be compensated.

Yes, eCOGRA's calculations were proper and I actually consulted with them on this beforehand.

This is all totally irrelevant, because if you don't see all the factors you can't do the calculation properly.

What information, Spears? The information has conveniently disappeared. I am trying with the help from the folks at statsremote to restore some old stats on my computer, but I think now I am totally wasting my time since it appears that there will be no investigation in this.

It is MGS who is actually holding the needed information - why are we even speculating whether the data was coming from one feed or two when MGS knows the answer and we don't?

I am getting thoroughly depressed now. Anyone wanna buy a website?

I don't want to work in an industry where things like this can happen and there is no legal recourse.

 

[dominique]

I too agree that this should not be an issue of MGS comparing notes with eCOGRA. eCOGRA has done their audit and reported their findings -and while many affiliates may find fault with the result, eCOGRA themselves only worked with the data they were given so they are not at fault there - but they should be admonished for not taking on advice from a number of parties which could have helped make things significantly more clear.

I don't even think they should be admonished for anything. They are accountants who worked with the available figures. They and only they were hired to do an audit. GP was the one who chose who to allow to take part, and they knew better than to allow an impartial observer who had knowledge of the actual situation and would have caught omissions.

The reason I suggested that MGS and eCOGRA compare notes is that one holds one set of info and the other another.

When compared, the discrepancies will become obvious.

 

[spearmaster]

What information, Spears? The information has conveniently disappeared. I am trying with the help from the folks at statsremote to restore some old stats on my computer, but I think now I am totally wasting my time since it appears that there will be no investigation in this.

It is MGS who is actually holding the needed information - why are we even speculating whether the data was coming from one feed or two when MGS knows the answer and we don't?

Because the MGS engineers who did the integration are no longer there - so they are trying to discover more about how it was done.

What would be really nice is if someone has a screenshot showing that there are legacy players and GP players...

 

[spearmaster]

I don't even think they should be admonished for anything. They are accountants who worked with the available figures.

They refused an opportunity to work with AGD and CAP, people who would know better about how the affiliate program worked. They also ignored some very strong (in my case, strongly worded LOL) advice from me, amongst others.

As I have said on a number of occasions, I consider Andrew and Tex my friends and I believe they are honest and full of integrity - but that isn't going to stop me from disagreeing with them, which I have done a few times.

 

[dominique]

What would be really nice is if someone has a screenshot showing that there are legacy players and GP players...

Ah geez, now I have to take screenshot of all the aff sites because I may have to prove the stats existed at a later time.

Are you sure they were able to decide to take an independent observer on board? I think that card was likely held by GP.

I oughta quit for the day, I am getting seriously depressed and discouraged. Not a common thing for me.

 

[jetset]

I disagree - the points I raised are as relevant - and perhaps have as much or more value - as the largely speculative assumptions that are being made in this thread regarding who might have the information that affiliates claim exists and whether affiliates could really have made a difference pre-audit.

Read through some of the posts here and apply the test of seeing which statements are based on fact and evidence rather than supposition and theory - unfortunately much of it falls into the latter category.

Whilst I hold no brief for GP, and in fact distrust the company even more following its refusal to further engage with eCOGRA on questions raised post-audit, there are issues here that worry me from the affiliate side as well....and I would really like to see more than theories and recriminations, because this is all leading to a dead end.

As to the level of trust or even a desire to interact with an outfit like CAP...well I'll just say that I would personally rather poke myself in the eye with a sharp stick, given its reputation or lack thereof.

 

[dominique]

CAP is not the issue here - the only involvement was that Warren established contact with GP, since at the time he was the only person I could dig up who was able to do so. After contact was established, an audit with the involvement of AGD as an independent observer was suggested to GP. GP turned around and hired eCOGRA without any observers (and for good reason )

No one doubts the integrity of eCPGRA in this matter and for the life of me I don't understand why that keeps coming up as an issue. It only side tracks from the actual issue, it is not an issue on it's own.

AGD would have noticed that data were missing asap, no doubt about it. All the affs who did not qualify had all their players from the Referspot legacy, and all the affiliates who are complaining about the amounts they were alotted complain of the same - the Referspot data were missing. There is no doubt about that.

We KNOW that the data is missing. However, the proof has conveniently disappeared (the GP aff site) and now I see that the only thing I held out hope for - the MGS team who handled the missing data during the mapping over and who could have at the very least given info regarding the size of the database - are gone.

Now what? So much for self policing of the industry. I always thought that Microgaming was the software company with the highest integrity in the business. If GP is able to get away with stealing from affiliates with impunity, even with eCOGRA and MGS taking an interest, I will have to admit to myself that I am doing business in a chaotic, lawless environment.

In my book, a contract is a contract and a hand shake is a hand shake, and maybe I just don't belong here anymore.

 

[triple777s]

Has anyone else noticed that when GP talks about the audit and affiliate stats they only refer to Grand Prive' players? or how about when they talked about "life time player value" it was written only as GP life time players....no mention of referspot life time players>>?? I know they kept separate details for each program and separate records of player activity for each one.....and now they are just plain ignoring the referspot data...period.

 

[dominique]

Well, the site looks fine in the waybackmachine but can't be logged into with my login.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

It says there:

Referspot will continue to display all historical stats.

This looks less well preserved:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Login doesn't work either here.

On the index page you will find:

We have a celebrated history spanning five years in the industry, and have proven time and again that we are the team of choice to provide support to your database of players.

Among the affiliate conditions it says:

Lifetime (annuity) income for players

Probably data from the available times are still in there, especially the referspot site, but I am no hacker and logins have been disabled.

 

[triple777s]

I still have my banner links from Referspot will that help eCOGRA in some way decide if those stats were included in the audit?

 

[greek39]

Like Aussie Dave and also others, I would like to know why only 75 affiliates filed a claim with eCOGRA? However, I also am of the view that if a proper and full audit was carried out, no claims should have needed to be filed.

I too was struggling with this very question. Why only 75 claimants? Well if I had any dealing with GP I would be discouraged from submitting any claims. How can I submit when my stats are tucked away on some rock 2000 miles away?

The affiliates are reliant on GP/referspot databases stats; again GP holds the key. Yeah sure they gave a half baked DB to ecogra to work with. Ecogra takes a gander fires off some settlements end of story. Now that’s sounds fair LOL.

Ecogra went with what they had not one affiliate present. Now am I speculating or is something wrong with this picture.


greek39

 

[triple777s]

I believe the only reason why there were so few submissions is because all of us that associate with affiliate forums new when, were and how to submit, but if you don't frequent the forums, they may not of 1,known...2 understood what to do....3 may not of recieved notice to do anything.

Also, I want to know why this audit showed me being owed "0"? I earned money on the legacy players up until the very last month that GP was opened, so why would my Legacy [referspot] players just stop playing "abruptly" at the exact same time?????....please give me a logical reason for that and then maybe i will considered some more BS.

Pat

 

[jetset]

@Dom: I'm not at all surprised that GP rejected the opportunity to interact with any team that included CAP, and we all know why.

The rest of your opening sentence is, again, not based on known fact but your personal suspicions that eCOGRA was engaged as the most malleable option - offensive to professionals to say the least.

@ Triple7: I might as well join the speculation game as well, and comment that I have to disagree with your theory that most webmasters would have been unaware of the invitation to submit claims.

I believe that given the nature of the business, the need to keep abreast of developments impacting affiliate business and the prevalence of message board usage, the balance of probabilities is that most affiliates earning a living from promoting online casino sites to players would be members of at least one and possibly more of the major online gambling and webmaster information sites.

But then neither of us can prove the point, can we?

Quick question for you Triple7, so that I can better understand your situation.

1) Were you receiving payments derived from your 'legacy' Referspot players as well as current GP program players right up to the end of December 2008 when GP pulled the plug?

Can you say what percentage of your income was coming from your Referspot legacy players when the program closed?

2) At that point (end December 2008) were you owed any money by GP, and if so were you one of the perhaps more fortunate but mysteriously quiet webmasters who GP claims received a compensation offer?

3) Can you estimate what you think you were owed by end December 2009 when you submitted a claim to the eCOGRA investigation?

4) Can you recall what date the Referspot program was switched to a GP program? How long were you a member of the Referspot program?

 

[dominique]

@Dom: I'm not at all surprised that GP rejected the opportunity to interact with any team that included CAP, and we all know why.

You didn't read, it was AGD who was suggested, not CAP. I don't know why you insist on keeping to bring that into it, AGD is not CAP and has no ties to CAP whatsoever.

The rest of your opening sentence is, again, not based on known fact but your personal suspicions that eCOGRA was engaged as the most malleable option - offensive to professionals to say the least.

There maybe something outraging about being shown only one of two feeds of data, but certainly not offensive to the auditing comany. You can't work with what you don't have. Andrew was not offended when this was revealed, but righteously angry. Again, you keep bringing this into it, it is not the issue. The issue is GP not providing all the data.

Jetset, if you asked me personal questions about my statistics such as amount of income, I certainly would not post my numbers in public. eCOGRA and MGS are more than welcome to these, but not the world wide web. How much Triple7 was making from Referspot and what % of her total income that was is a PRIVATE piece of information and very unwise to post publicly. I suggest this info be sent in a PM to Bryan to pass along.

I posted the waybackmachine links which pinpoint the date of the actual switch exactly. You have to click a few links on the grand prive summary to see the actual start, they had issues mapping over and got a late start.

Maybe triple7 will answer the other questions as they apply to herself.

 

[triple777s]

Jetset

1. Yes, Referspot was my biggest payments, with the most depositors, GP only made a few bucks a month on. This was plainly detailed on the homepage of my account at GP. Two different charts, one for GP players and one for referspot players

2. At the time of the "closure" i was owed nothing, it is since the closure and thier decision to not pay future earnings is were my money comes into the picture. I averaged a decent amount for referspot players, so since 2008 I believe I am owed something. And i did file a claim,but was told I was owed "Zero"....

3. An estimated amount is between me and the payee but i am not looking for an outrageous amount, just something respectable.

4. I was with Referspot for over 3 years as an active affiliate. Actually it was closer to 4 years when the switch took place. And when the switch took place i had over 90 players, and suddenly went down to only 27 active players and never regained those other players under the referspot program,which i complained about back then to no avail. So you see, they are not just ignoring the referspot players and issues now, they were and have been ignoring the referspot players back at the time of the switch too.

Is that the end of the inquisition?

Pat

@Dom: I'm not at all surprised that GP rejected the opportunity to interact with any team that included CAP, and we all know why.

The rest of your opening sentence is, again, not based on known fact but your personal suspicions that eCOGRA was engaged as the most malleable option - offensive to professionals to say the least.

@ Triple7: I might as well join the speculation game as well, and comment that I have to disagree with your theory that most webmasters would have been unaware of the invitation to submit claims.

I believe that given the nature of the business, the need to keep abreast of developments impacting affiliate business and the prevalence of message board usage, the balance of probabilities is that most affiliates earning a living from promoting online casino sites to players would be members of at least one and possibly more of the major online gambling and webmaster information sites.

But then neither of us can prove the point, can we?

Quick question for you Triple7, so that I can better understand your situation.

1) Were you receiving payments derived from your 'legacy' Referspot players as well as current GP program players right up to the end of December 2008 when GP pulled the plug?

Can you say what percentage of your income was coming from your Referspot legacy players when the program closed?

2) At that point (end December 2008) were you owed any money by GP, and if so were you one of the perhaps more fortunate but mysteriously quiet webmasters who GP claims received a compensation offer?

3) Can you estimate what you think you were owed by end December 2009 when you submitted a claim to the eCOGRA investigation?

4) Can you recall what date the Referspot program was switched to a GP program? How long were you a member of the Referspot program?

 

[triple777s]

I have a question please...

When i was earning with "referspot"....i always got paid through Neteller...and it was always from GrandBay Casino.....never referspot....now my question is...i no longer have an account at Neteller because i am in the US, but if i write them and ask for a print out of all my account activity from 2003 til 2008 would they send it to me? Do they still have the records?

Thanks for any info
Pat

 

[jetset]

I suggest you refresh your knowledge of this incident, Dom - it is public knowledge that CAP and AGD made a joint approach to GP, and that approach was rejected for reasons known only to GP.... although I can think of at least two.

Are you denying that your implication earlier on was that eCOGRA was chosen because it was the softer option?

I'm afraid it's no use getting riled about my mentioning elements that are integral to this whole ball of wax - you can't expect to have the sole rights to discussing events surrounding this issue and those involved when you are so vociferous yourself.

@Pat - Honestly, I don't know whether Neteller would still have that information, but that line may provide useful information for you to use and is worth a try imo. Anything that delivers hard facts and figures rather than thumbsucks is in my view worthwhile.

If the allegedly numerous aggrieved GP affiliates ever join together in making a few legal enquiries regarding the viability of a class action and mandatory disclosures with GP in mind, it would certainly be useful to put some numbers on the table to start with imo.

And thank you for answering my questions - not an inquisition btw, so please don't start implying sinister motivations when there are none - merely interest in your predicament.

Finally, for clarity, can you advise whether GP approached you offering compensation when they shut the program down....or not?

 

[triple777s]

LOL, sorry about the "inquistion" couldn't resist.

Thanks for the info on Neteller, and ABSOLUTELY NOT, GP Never approached me with any type of offer, payment, not even a "kiss off".....and i worked closely with them for over 5 years as they sponsored my forum with contests and promotions....

 

[dominique]

I suggest you refresh your knowledge of this incident, Dom - it is public knowledge that CAP and AGD made a joint approach to GP, and that approach was rejected for reasons known only to GP.... although I can think of at least two.

I don't need to refresh my memory since I was involved in this - I asked Warren to establish contact (because he was the only person who could or would) and he did and he suggested an audit with AGD as observer to GP. CAP was never in the discussion as observer or anything else, Warren faciliated contact and suggested the above, for which I am grateful. Like him or not, it was the right thing to do.

Are you denying that your implication earlier on was that eCOGRA was chosen because it was the softer option?

My implication is that AGD was purposefully avoided as observer because AGD would have noticed the missing feed. There was no way eCOGRA could have known about it's existance, but an affiliate rep would have known off the bat.

If the allegedly numerous aggrieved GP affiliates ever join together in making a few legal enquiries regarding the viability of a class action and mandatory disclosures with GP in mind, it would certainly be useful to put some numbers on the table to start with imo.

This would have to originate from a country with clear gaming laws.

The numbers are pretty much gone. GP effectively eliminated all traces, and MGS says the people who handled them are gone and apparently there are no records. Or are there? Spearmaster is busy collecting what there is as far as affiliate's private records as we speak.

 

[jetset]

My information differs significantly from yours on CAP's approach, so we will have to disagree on that point.

I think it more likely that AGD was unfortunately perceived to be associated with CAP, which was probably enough to disqualify both. Pure speculation, however (see - you've got me doing it as well now)

I'm glad that someone of Spearmaster's integrity is hunting down numbers, because this issue is in truly desperate need of some hard facts.

I wish him every success, because those numbers could prove useful going forward. I think if I were a shafted affiliate here - especially to the extent implied by some posters - I would definitely be rallying the troops (fellow affiliates) and at the very least taking some factual legal advice on my options in preference to writing reams on message boards.

 

[dominique]

The reason I am prolific in this thread is because it was said that MGS is reading it, and for me it is a vehicle of communication with MGS only at this time. That is why I would like to stick to the issue itself and not get into whatever surrounding circumstances, no matter how strong the urge to explain them may be.

I still hope MGS will get in touch with me as a result of this thread, because I am not willing to post a lot of things in public, nor would MGS or anyone involved appreciate it if I did.

 

[Shyguy]

At the GPWA they avoid my question and here now too

There probably were 1000's that did not claim but that is surely due to the time it took in getting the investigation going. Some affs probably gave up entirely after the GP fiasco and never looked back. The 70 odd that did claim are probably current affiliates or whose that cared enough to stick around and wait for a result. It's a shame only 70 claimed and there are probably more affs out there that wish they had claimed when the chance came up.

Unfortunately the claim time was far too short and gave many affs who were out of the picture no chance to even realise there was going to be something done about it.

 

[The Dude]

The reason I am prolific in this thread is because it was said that MGS is reading it, and for me it is a vehicle of communication with MGS only at this time. That is why I would like to stick to the issue itself and not get into whatever surrounding circumstances, no matter how strong the urge to explain them may be.

I still hope MGS will get in touch with me as a result of this thread, because I am not willing to post a lot of things in public, nor would MGS or anyone involved appreciate it if I did.

They were focused on the other thread concerning their software. Not so much this one since as I mentioned earlier, there is not much they can do. I know you don't want to hear this, and you may not want to accept this, but B2B relationships (i.e. affiliate programs, media buys etc.) are not part of their realm.

They provided GP with software to run their aff program, assisted them in mapping over the Referspot players, and that was it. You keep harping on MGS, but it's a waste of time. You might as well ask them to stop Global Warming, it would have the same effect. I'm sure they would want to do something - but what are they supposed to do? Realistically.

The only way that you would be owed money, or for this to make any sense, is that GP stripped the Referspot "legacy players' out of the database when they handed this over to eCOGRA. Again, speculation. So far from what I've seen, no evidence points to this. And I mean evidence - not what people believe could have happened.

There probably were 1000's that did not claim but that is surely due to the time it took in getting the investigation going. Some affs probably gave up entirely after the GP fiasco and never looked back. The 70 odd that did claim are probably current affiliates or whose that cared enough to stick around and wait for a result. It's a shame only 70 claimed and there are probably more affs out there that wish they had claimed when the chance came up.

Unfortunately the claim time was far too short and gave many affs who were out of the picture no chance to even realize there was going to be something done about it.

Do you honestly believe Grand Prive had 1000s of webmasters generating players for them? I don't.

And I'm pretty sure everyone who would have laid claim to a case was notified. CAP sent an announcement to their database of 10,000 webmasters or so. I sent one out to all of my members. I'm pretty sure AGD and the GPWA followed suit. And last but not least, GP sent one out to their affiliate database as well.

Lastly, I'm not defending anyone here. I'm merely trying to keep the information as factual as possible with the GP situation. Too much melodrama has obscured this issue, fingers have been pointed at the wrong people, and the ones who are paying for it are the affiliates themselves.

Spear says he's gathering more information. More power to him - hopefully more light can be shed on this. But I seriously doubt anything will. Just my opinion.