Online RTP settings??

[4 of a kind]

One of the major concerns and conversations here are the casinos Return to Player settings (RTP’s).

Regardless how reputable any one online casino may be, their will always be doubts of fair play simply because no one knows for fact how any online casino must operate. We all know or read about how it was in the early days of Las Vegas (1946) when gambling was totally unregulated and under the control of the mob. Las Vegas didn’t become what it is today until the government publicly ridded the mob, and put in place gambling regulations being enforced by regulators.

Without online regulation being shared with everyone and a single online regulatory body where all complaints should be handled (state or country) doubts of online fair play will never end. Online players need to know if the owners given a license to operate are straight up. For all we know it's no different then the early days of Las Vegas. Online players know nothing about any online casino or its operators, except for the couple that trade publicly. Online players have to trust what's being said by third parties that want to remain anonymous. This type of information could never be considered serious regardless who says it is.

Being able to change RTP settings on the fly would be a huge advantage for online casinos. Some say they can, and others say they can't. Some say they have only 3 different settings, some say their choices are endless. No one knows for sure one way or the other, nor could anyone make a confirmed argument one way or the other. All online players have to go by is their own personal experiences, and no one could spin enough on one game to confirm any RTP setting.

Unless regulators report actual monitored monthly RTP settings no one could take what any hired lab reports not knowing for sure what the online casino sent them in the first place serious.

Lowering RTP settings is not a crime and all casinos need this ability to control income especially online. But, players want to know how low is the lowest they can go and what they have to go through in order to make these changes.

Below is a list of regulations that New Jersey must abide by to lower or change their RTP settings. This alone pretty much confirms in New Jersey it can’t be done on the fly.

After reading this can anyone tell me what online casinos must do?



In Atlantic City the payback percentage is 83%. Most slots pay in the neighborhood of 90% over time, but the point here is that regulatory agencies do not allow a casino to flip a switch and change the payback percentage. The regulators want to reliably know that machine #xxxxx will operate in X manner and will pay back X percentage over time. No surprises. No mysteries.

And how do the regulators enforce the rules? Let's look at how the process is handled in New Jersey...

Every RNG in Atlantic City is individually certified and sealed by New Jersey’s Division of Gaming Enforcement. A casino CANNOT change a machine's payback unless the casino does the following...

• The casino makes an application to the DGE.
• The machine is opened under DGE supervision.
• The DGE breaks the processor's seal and supervises the program/chip replacement.
• The DGE creates a new seal, and re-certifies the machine.

The Division of Gaming Enforcement maintains a database of every slot machine in the state of New Jersey. The specific payback percentage of every machine is part of that database. Every RNG is numbered and tracked.

The above procedures are typical for most regulatory agencies throughout the U.S.

 

[Jasminebed]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

 

[Diane]

I know I read a long time ago the rules for Quebec's government run Casinos. They could change any slot only once in a twenty-four hour period, and there were minimum percentages, and an average that had to be adhered to.

My local Ontario Lottery Commission Charity casino has been fined several times for having payouts below the minimum. It was at least 7 times in their first 8 years of operation, and that was a couple of years ago.

Sometimes fines are just the cost of doing business.

RTP and theorhetical RTP are not exactly the same thing. Free chips, cash back, comps, etc, are all part of RTP.

I think most of the time casinos "cheat" is not by adjusting payout, but denying legitimate winnings, delaying payments so frustrated players either give up or play it back, or having complicated rules, or traps such as a penny bonus applied during play.

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino. There is just some blindness that will never see the light. Accept it and understand that its part of "gambling"...........Don't give in to the conspirators -- just accept that you will never know for sure, so why sweat it?

Gambling is gambling.

Diane

 

[threescatters]

As gamblers we have to accept the fact that we will never know *exactly* what is going on whether its online or in a B&M casino.

Couldn't disagree more. i agree that the vast majority of operators operate like this, and wish it to stay that way but look at wagerworks. The RTP of all the slots is clearly displayed in the help files, have you ever heard of someone having a major disagreement with wagerworks that wasnt satisfactorily resolved? Other providers of slot machines should take note of this.

 

[Nifty29]

It's also important to add that it is not possible to tell the RTP of a slot just by playing it....at least, not in the number of spins the average slot player takes.

It would be interesting to put 25 new slots with varying RTPs in front of some slot players and see if they could rank them correctly from worst to best. Not only would it be near impossible to do, even with 5000 spins per slot, but the rankings would vary wildly as some players would be on the up side of the variance pendulum and others would be on the down side.

I totally understand and accept the point that 4OAK consistently makes in regards to regulation of online gaming I.e. the lunatics running the asylum. It very much boils down to trust in both the software provider and the operator, and others like Bryan who have made it their mission to keep the industry honest. If one doesn't think they're getting a fair game, then one should avoid that software or operator. Nobody knows exactly what goes on behind the scenes, so its doubtful that anyone would be able to provide proof that cheating goes on. Alternately, those who believe the major software is fair have data such as audited RTPs and statements from people like Bryan and Mr Shackleford etc that show this to be so. The only thing that those who believe they cheat have to hang their hat on is "I'm not winning enough" or "the dealer gets too many 21s" which doesnt even begin to cut the mustard.

Anyone who seriously thinks they are being cheated should read the article 4oak posted earlier. If they still think they're being cheated after that, then the minute they place their next bet online reduces the credibility of their opinion to zero, as continuing to play a game where you know you're being cheated is very unintelligent at best, and certainly indicates that you don't even subscribe to your own theory.

Personally I give far more creedence to posters like 4oak who question fairness AND stop playing as a result. At least they have the courage of their convictions.

 

[Seventh777]

I was speaking to a slot machine engineer for ages a few years ago, at a local land based casino regarding how much cash had to be pumped through the average slot before it reflected the RTP %, he reliably informed me that there is no set amount, but for accounting and other purposes the guideline is set around the 100k mark, give or take a few thousand either way, this was the average. As experienced only once myself he went on to add, `You could quite possibly come in here and hit two jackpots consecutively, giving you a 10000% RTP, the next player however could experience the complete opposite, but i`m quietly confident that if you want to run £100,000 through it, at the end you will have a return of somewhere between 90-95k`.

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

 

[4 of a kind]

So in the nutshell, having monthly audits would give inaccurate RTP`s, unless ofc the amounts the individual slots RTP`s are based on have been reached.

Below are copies of only two A.C. casinos mandatory monthly reports required for all Atlantic City casinos. When you read the slot section on the right column you could see what percentage the casino held for that month. I would guess that the volume these machines take in on a monthly base would be more then enough to give a pretty accurate RTP setting.

Regardless if the RTP's have reached their actual settings or not; following these monthly reports would certainly give me a good idea where I would choose to play slots when visiting.

 

[3mptyseat]

Its not a completely uncommon event that a casino would post monthly losses in slot categories too. All it takes is a huge hit on the high-roller machines, and that can set off win/loss reports for weeks to come... Great post. Variance is a painful truth that most players deal with, whether they know it or not, that second report illustrates that it can be the enemigo of the house too, if not for just a short time. And that is a nice thought.

 

[Simmo!]

There definitely needs to be more transparency in publishing RTP's IMO. Wagerworks/IGT, WMS and Novomatic all publish the RTP's of their online games and it's probably no coincidence that they all come from a land-based background, while Microgaming, Playtech and RTG (for example) don't - and none of those have a land-based history. Ultimately I believe they will suffer as a result when - ultimately - the industry is properly regulaed.

A lot of it is down to the licensing jurisdiction. Judging from what I see, Alderney clearly require online casinos to publish their RTP and IMO all licensing jurisdictions should insist on this.

All that said, a lot of players would refuse to believe it anyway. Gambling incurs losses and as we see here a lot, emotions overrule anything when you lose. Even I have found myself doubting some casinos when I have a bad streak. But I think also, a lot of that is down to how a player perceives a "brand".

For example, if I have a bad streak at 32Red or Bet365 I might get annoyed, but ultimately I put it down to bad luck. And I think many players play at brands they don't know well enough to trust - they just *want* to trust them. I hear over and over that you should never underestimate the importance of brand and this is one instance where I think it's spot on.

If every online casino was, say, a big Vegas casino like MGM, Wynn etc, the RTP's would be clear and I reckon 99% of people here would believe they were getting a fair game.

 

[threescatters]

Simmo I have never been to a big vegas casino like the MGM or Wynn where the RTP on each machine is clearly displayed or am I misinterpreteing your post? Big land based casinos in the US seem to want to hide what the RTP is.

The wizard of odds has a page where he went round a lot of big casinos and calculated the house on some 5c slots and you can use that to draw an idea where the best places to play are, but ive never seen what you say there.

On the other hand, similar slots in UK casinos all clearly display a % that is the minimum it can be set to, usually 94% for casino slots now.

 

[Simmo!]

Simmo I have never been to a big vegas casino like the MGM or Wynn where the RTP on each machine is clearly displayed or am I misinterpreteing your post? Big land based casinos in the US seem to want to hide what the RTP is.

Hi 3scatters - yes sorry, I probably wasn't clear. They don't display them in land-based but I am pretty sure they would online as jurisdictions like Alderney etc insist on it.

 

[3mptyseat]

Couldn't disagree more. i agree that the vast majority of operators operate like this, and wish it to stay that way but look at wagerworks. The RTP of all the slots is clearly displayed in the help files, have you ever heard of someone having a major disagreement with wagerworks that wasnt satisfactorily resolved? Other providers of slot machines should take note of this.

Exactly... Very well said... There is a argument that the 'rigged' complaints are just part of the game, that even in a perfect world those complaints would still be a consistent part of forums like this, but I can't agree with that... I don't ever feel like I am 'cheated' at the B&M. And I certainly don't read about people complaining about IGT's online label WagerWorks... You really don't hear much about crooked MG software either... Thats bc when the company producing the product lives up to a standard of excellence, its easy for the punting public to trust their product...

Spot on with the vast majority of op's wanting the status quo;... Well, at least the one company still doing business with American clientele; RTG is loving this atmosphere, for the right now anyway... A CW rep boasted to me last week that CWC is doing 'better than ever' business and it stands to reason: they are kicking out vips with higher than average win rates and other types of risky depositors and every new gambler to the online world within the US has about 3 choices; An RTG, a domainholdings ltd Sportsbook with a flash casino (games like "slotfather' and 'reel sports'), or 3dice... I mean, for a true newbie, where else is there?... And its all bc the feds booted most every other operator who had enough integrity (or maybe just fear of the feds) to leave...

 

[threescatters]

Hi 3scatters - yes sorry, I probably wasn't clear. They don't display them in land-based but I am pretty sure they would online as jurisdictions like Alderney etc insist on it.

Hi Simmo,

Thanks for clearinig that up! I will have to disagree with you then. The fact they dont display them in their land casino shows me that they dont want to, and why would they want any different if they were online with www.wynncasino.com or something?

Yes the regulator, in this case most likely Nevada/US Government tho, might make them do it, but signs historically point to this not being the case for any US based regulation.

Alderney might insist on it, but they are a joke just now. They let FTP operate outside regulation and they are letting FTP dictate what happens at their "hearing"s, reflects very badly on them.

 

[Seventh777]

It`s not the RTP % that baffles me, but, how does the software decide that it`s payday time for a random player at any given time?. This aspect is a whole lot easier to understand when playing land based slots, a certain slot has been well and truly fed and is fit to burst, you by chance start playing this slot and boom, happy days. Online slots are completely different however, you can be playing that high variance favourite of yours for hours upon hours, triggering free spins every 150-200 spins that yield little more than x5 bet returns, finally giving up the ghost and swapping between all of your fav slots and getting identical results no matter what variance, spin cost, payline amounts etc, etc. and in 99.99% of cases ending up flat broke.

So a few days later you try again, a few spins in and you hit the free spins feature and this happens.....



In open play - those hits you have dreamed of and have spent more time on getting than is healthy........











To name but a few, so, what triggers these hits, that will keep on coming no matter what slot/game you play until you reach that magic figure the software has somehow allotted to you for this session?.

 

[threescatters]

its random bro

 

[Nifty29]

@seventh77

If you think that land based slots pay out according to how "full" they are, or how much play they've had, then you really need to do some reading about how slots work. The land based slots are computer controlled just like online slots. Any difference you claim to see is not really there.

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

@threescatters

Please stop stating facts. It will get you nowhere.

 

[threescatters]

@threescatters

Please stop stating facts. It will get you nowhere.

pfffff I was giving him a genuine answer to his question, are you a mod here? Do you want me to write an essay to answer him when a few words will do?

Please stop insulting my posts and being a jerk.

 

[Seventh777]

@seventh77

If you think that land based slots pay out according to how "full" they are, or how much play they've had, then you really need to do some reading about how slots work. The land based slots are computer controlled just like online slots. Any difference you claim to see is not really there.

So, when you are playing on land based slots and having no joy on a certain slot, you change slots until you find one that is loose, how does a computer control this aspect on various land based slots?.

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

I used them to get a point across, a point once again that you overlooked whilst going for the aggressive approach, do you think that your opinions are more important than anyone else`s?, were you bullied at school?.

 

[Nifty29]

pfffff I was giving him a genuine answer to his question, are you a mod here? Do you want me to write an essay to answer him when a few words will do?

Please stop insulting my posts and being a jerk.

I was agreeing with your post and stating that you are pretty much wasting your time as most players don't want to hear it I.e the facts/ truth

I wasn't insulting you at all, but thanks for making it personal in return.

 

[threescatters]

I was agreeing with your post and stating that you are pretty much wasting your time as most players don't want to hear it I.e the facts/ truth

I wasn't insulting you at all, but thanks for making it personal in return.

right I got you, you meant it as a joke. No offence taken from your post and Sorry if I offended you, its not personal bro and I retract my statement. I know you post a lot here I was just surprised a bit is all.

 

[maxd]

I'm not sure why you, once again, had to fill another thread up with screenies when it is totally irrelevant and inappropriate. Why you don't place them in the screenies thread/s like anyone else I don't know. Is it attention you crave? Or are your screenies more important than anyone else's?

Dude, you're moderating again. Please check your PMs.

 

[4 of a kind]

The point I was trying to make in this thread by comparing land based regulated casinos to non regulated online casinos should have been clear.

Just by viewing some of the requirements I posted for land based regulated casinos should have been obvious what it would take for online gaming to finally become honest and transparent.

It should also be obvious to most that after a decade of being unregulated and still today by the amount of honest players endlessly getting screwed one way or another by online gaming, (all over the world) that something needs fixing. Regardless who says how honest and safe they consider their recommendations to be, are wrong and misleading.

I’m not trashing Bryan or this forum in any way; in fact I give them credit for trying to police this cesspool of shit. The problem is any casino could be accredited today yet be in the rogue pit tomorrow. I don’t know about anyone here, but if I finally hit a nice payoff after endless months of losing deposits and was getting screwed over by a casino, then only having Bryan and Max to fall back on; I’m not comfortable knowing that if they can’t negotiate a deal for me, the best I could get out of it is the casino gets a rogue listing. Just take a minute and realize how foolish that actually is.

History proves that unregulated gambling is a dirty business and draws crooks of all sorts to it like flies to a pile of shit.

As for the alleged honest online operators presently out there, (at least for today) shame on you for not doing more about its present condition. Until then you’re no different then the rest of the shit waiting to be pumped out of the cesspool.

It should also be obvious that after over a decade of online gaming history, that the present operators like it just the way it is. Just read any of their T&C’s, and you’ll eventually come across how their decision is final. (Not a regulators)

 

[jod5413]

Good post, 4oak. I would only want to temper your beliefs with the few accredited casinos that are, in my opinion, honest and fair. Not everyone that jumped on board when this all started were crooks. We wouldn't have 32Red, and their sister casinos, we wouldn't have RTGs, like Club World and Inetbet. And there are still some other MG casinos that are run honestly and fairly. But you are right, without regulation, it is a scary game out there.

 

[Papa-ya]

I would like to know what the mechanics truly is behind the "RTP"? For instance you read a casino has a 95% RTP, as an example, what does it actually mean?
Is it a description of an overall of all their games being lumped into one basket to make the house RTP 95%?
Or is is based on the game, whichever one it may be for that magic moment that hits the 95%+ RTP for the day?

If you are playing fewer lines on a multiline slot, how does this affect the RTP, I know the answer is it lowers it, this is not what I want to know, by how much is it lowered, if this is the case. Is it based on docking an RTP point for every line discarded?

I ask this as I have been studying the play on Count Spectacular for instance, not looking for patterns, but trying to get a better idea of what's best, all lines or less lines, as this was the one I hit 5 counts on about 3 months ago, playing 0.01 cent bet per line for 25 lines. The win for this small bet size was $500. A poster stated had I been playing less lines at a higher wager, this play would have paid out much higher, I agree that should be the case.
So from this thought I have been playing no more than 5-10 lines at 0.05-0.10 cent bet per line. Grant it I have had a couple nice little wins this way, but playing the less lines the big wins pretty much vanish.

I have closely watched all the wins that I do miss while playing the fewer lines and they are minimal wins, none of the big higher paying symbols. This is over the 3 month period from the last win.

My thinking, is this maybe how the RTP works, does playing fewer lines effect the higher paying symbols from coming into play, but would like someone to explain the true "mechanics" of RTP.

I asked these questions of the casino I have been playing at and asked for my stats on this one slot for the last 2 months. I was told, the stats could not be provided, but that I had an overall 90.10 rtp. I did not find this a satisfactory answer to my questions.

 

[4 of a kind]

The first thing you have to remember is the moment the machine is plugged in, the Random Number Generator (RNG) is generating different combinations endlessly by the millisecond, even when it's idle and not being played. Based on what the RTP setting for any one machine may be, determines how many numbers the programmer must appoint to each stop. The higher the RTP setting is the more numbers are allotted to paying stops, giving the RNG more opportunities to randomly stop on a win. Of course the lower the RTP settings get the lesser the allotted numbers get assigned to paying stops and the more get allotted to non paying stops or combinations.

The moment you click spin the RNG froze wherever it was, and your outcome regardless how many coins or lines you chose to play was decided at that exact millisecond you clicked spin. Its obvious then, the more you bet the more you would have won. Had your finger slipped off the mouse at that exact moment you would not have hit the win. The RNG don’t know or care how many coins you bet. By hitting 5 counts you obviously could have won the maximum jackpot allowed had you been betting more. That hit is the hardest one to spike on that game, and the RNG probably allots only one number for the count on most of the reels. The odds of getting all five to hit at the same time must be millions to one.

The exact algebra involved with setting RNG’s gets a little complicated. Today I read an interesting article on RNG’s but left the magazine at my office. I’ll post it tomorrow for you to read since it’ll explain it much better then I could.

In addition I would like to add that what I say above is based on land based casinos. Not sure if online is exactly the same. Like I said earlier no one knows for sure how anything works online as a matter of fact.

 

[Papa-ya]

I look forward to reading your follow up information and thank you for the detailed explaination so far, makes a lot of sense to me and helps to understand the mechanics a bit better.

 

[nisosbar]

In simple terms, I think it basically works like this:

if the RTP is 95%, that means that the game is set to statistically return $0.95 of each $1.00 spin, but when I say statistically, that means the average return per ... whatever, 50 Gazillion spins. So that if you had an unlimited bankroll, and spun the slot 50 Gazillion times, and you averaged your returns - total over the 50 Gazillion - you would find that your wins would be 95% of your total bets, or playthrough.

Does that help?

 

[KasinoKing]

If you are playing fewer lines on a multiline slot, how does this affect the RTP, I know the answer is it lowers it, this is not what I want to know, by how much is it lowered, if this is the case. Is it based on docking an RTP point for every line discarded?

That is not true.
Changing the number of win-lines has no effect on RTP at all.
What is does change is the Variance, which is increased with the fewer lines you play.

KK

 

[darkfire]

Well as I understand it how RTP works (well for card games anyway, I assume slots are similar), it's pretty much like this:

Let's say we play a game whereby you pay me $1 to toss a (fair) coin. If you called it correctly, I'll pay you $1.90 otherwise you get nothing.
This means that 50% of the time I'm going to make $1 and 50% of the time I'm going to lose $0.90. Agreed?

So if I was to work out how much I'd make I'd say (50% x $1) + (50% x -$0.90) = $0.05
That means that on average I'm paying out $0.95 for every $1 you give me, which is 95%.

You could take any coin and toss it and you'll see it goes through winning and losing streaks.

 

[Papa-ya]

That is not true.
Changing the number of win-lines has no effect on RTP at all.
What is does change is the Variance, which is increased with the fewer lines you play.

KK

Then might I ask, what is the difference between RTP and Variance? To me the player, it would seem the payouts become fewer and farther inbetween, playing less lines, the higher symbols rarely appear in a winning combination, even on lines not being wagered on, so how does playing less lines change the Variance?
I have asked a couple of times what my RTP was on this particular slot, once it was reported to me as being in the 70's% and then in the 90.10%, but seriously playing less lines, feels like the % is in the dead zone, except when you get the very rare decent win.

So isn't RTP and Variance the same thing?

 

[nisosbar]

So isn't RTP and Variance the same thing?

Wow, you're no novice, I would have thought you would have known the difference, no offense.

RTP is, essentially, what the casino decides it wants for a house edge - whether that's 1%, 2%, 5%, whatever. There are different ways this can be achieved, but one way of which I'm aware is, like, if they want a bigger house edge/profit, they could insert an extra low-paying icon on a reel, in order to expand the amount of 'dead', low-paying space on the reel (as opposed to, say, a wild symbol, which would LOWER the house edge).

Variance is like, if you charted each spin on a graph, some wins/datapoints would be very, very high, and the majority would be low or zero. Those big wins are affected by how big your bet is per line. So if you played all 20 available lines on Big Shot, and your bankroll was $100, and you bet no more than 1/100th of your starting bankroll in practice, then you would be betting $0.05 per line (multiplied by 20 lines, and you get $1.00). So, for example, if you got five sports car icons on line 14, and it pays 500x the line bet, you'd win $25 ($0.05 x 500 = $25.00). If, on the other hand, you decided to play only 5 lines, then you would be able to raise your line bet to $0.20 per line, in order to keep within your total bet parameter of $1.00 ($0.20 x 5 = $1.00). If you then get five sports cars on line 14, you win nothing. If those five icons appear on line 4, you win $100 ($0.20 x 500 = $100.00). So you heightened your variance in that you lost the win on line 14, but won it when it appeared on line 4. The objective for the player being, let's hope the POSITIVE variance of the variance cycle happens in the FIRST few games - because then I can cash out ahead and move on.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[4 of a kind]

Below is that article I said I would post on RNG's

 

[4 of a kind]

Below is another article on random. Although the article is keyed in on video poker, the random explanation is the same.

 

[Nifty29]

Below is another article on random. Although the article is keyed in on video poker, the random explanation is the same.

Excellent article.

Would this still apply if the games are rigged though? Like RTG etc??



I'm also amazed that, after so many threads and explanations over the years, that people who have been around a long time still ask what variance and RTP are? It certainly explains why some of them complain so much - they don't understand what they're risking their money on.

 

[4 of a kind]

Excellent article.

Would this still apply if the games are rigged though? Like RTG etc??



I'm also amazed that, after so many threads and explanations over the years, that people who have been around a long time still ask what variance and RTP are? It certainly explains why some of them complain so much - they don't understand what they're risking their money on.

NO, it would still not apply if the game is rigged. The information in those articles are being based on actual fact from land based regulated casinos. I’m not sure what options online gaming have or could pull off.

What I could tell you is about my personal experiences with online video poker.

Most members here that know about my past posts know that I was predominantly an online video poker buff. The only time I usually played slots was when I got fatigued playing video poker and knew I started making mistakes on decisions and realized I had to take a break. When I played video poker my action was always max bet with perfect strategy (unless a mistake was made) and no doubt being played at the max speed possible. One time I flushed all five cards and a royal popped up. I clicked so fast to the next hand I never actually saw it, and only knew I hit it for sure because of my balance. (Hard to miss a 20K increase)

I played for seven years endlessly and consistently the same. I was happy with the games overall outcomes during this time year after year and the endless entertainment. I felt the action I was getting was a good bang for my buck. Bad sessions sometimes seemed endless, but by the end of every year it all seemed to balance out close to the same, give or take a few.

Then suddenly their seemed to be a serious negative run that never seemed to correct itself not even a little for a whole year ending with a 6 digit lose for the first time playing online. Although with the natural distrust that comes with gaming online, I still attributed the terrible lose to nothing more then bad luck.

After another seven or eight months with the outcomes in fact getting worse with the same action and time just like the past, now eight years, is when I really started to become suspicious. Royals and four of a kind’s seemed to vanish. This is when I slowed down my action and really started digging into online gaming.

Several times I could have sworn one of the cards I discarded reappeared, but at the speed I was playing I couldn’t be sure, nor did I bother to contact support since I felt if they were rigged they would certainly have the ability to cover up any exposure. My outcomes were the opposite of that article on randomness, since the longer I was playing, instead of getting closer to expectations, I was getting further away. Again don't forget, we're not talking about a couple of 10 minute bad sessions, we're talking endless hours and hours upon days, then months, then years.

Although I knew there had to be some type of regulations in place, and after exhausting research and efforts, I couldn’t uncover a single gaming regulation or communicate with one single regulatory agency. I even went as far as wasting another few grand playing only five dollar hands trying to prove that real play and fun play were operating differently. Although I posted those results, we all know the size of the samples were not confirming anything.

Then I stumbled into the screen shots from a bitter RTG owner. With the explanations that came with the screen shots, I was convinced online gaming was rigged. Since every screen shot I got was a still, anyone theoretically could no doubt interpret them to whatever one wants to believe. I was sold on the explanations I got from the owner, but after posting only one of them here I was awarded the Tin Hat asshole of the year award. Which I would like to add that the counter response and explanation to that screen shot was not from a regulator, but from an alleged trusted acquaintance of Bryans from RTG.

I choose to no longer gamble online now for over a year, but I certainly can’t wait for it to return regulated; as you should be able to tell from my still present activity here. I also enjoy participating in threads with my views concerning the need for regulation and online gaming, along with staying current on current events that involve online gaming. I too very much enjoyed the different options online gaming offers when compared to live play.

 

[Nifty29]

NO, it would still not apply if the game is rigged. The information in those articles are being based on actual fact from land based regulated casinos. I’m not sure what options online gaming have or could pull off.

What I could tell you is about my personal experiences with online video poker.

Most members here that know about my past posts know that I was predominantly an online video poker buff. The only time I usually played slots was when I got fatigued playing video poker and knew I started making mistakes on decisions and realized I had to take a break. When I played video poker my action was always max bet with perfect strategy (unless a mistake was made) and no doubt being played at the max speed possible. One time I flushed all five cards and a royal popped up. I clicked so fast to the next hand I never actually saw it, and only knew I hit it for sure because of my balance. (Hard to miss a 20K increase)

I played for seven years endlessly and consistently the same. I was happy with the games overall outcomes during this time year after year and the endless entertainment. I felt the action I was getting was a good bang for my buck. Bad sessions sometimes seemed endless, but by the end of every year it all seemed to balance out close to the same, give or take a few.

Then suddenly their seemed to be a serious negative run that never seemed to correct itself not even a little for a whole year ending with a 6 digit lose for the first time playing online. Although with the natural distrust that comes with gaming online, I still attributed the terrible lose to nothing more then bad luck.

After another seven or eight months with the outcomes in fact getting worse with the same action and time just like the past, now eight years, is when I really started to become suspicious. Royals and four of a kind’s seemed to vanish. This is when I slowed down my action and really started digging into online gaming.

Several times I could have sworn one of the cards I discarded reappeared, but at the speed I was playing I couldn’t be sure, nor did I bother to contact support since I felt if they were rigged they would certainly have the ability to cover up any exposure. My outcomes were the opposite of that article on randomness, since the longer I was playing, instead of getting closer to expectations, I was getting further away. Again don't forget, we're not talking about a couple of 10 minute bad sessions, we're talking endless hours and hours upon days, then months, then years.

Although I knew there had to be some type of regulations in place, and after exhausting research and efforts, I couldn’t uncover a single gaming regulation or communicate with one single regulatory agency. I even went as far as wasting another few grand playing only five dollar hands trying to prove that real play and fun play were operating differently. Although I posted those results, we all know the size of the samples were not confirming anything.

Then I stumbled into the screen shots from a bitter RTG owner. With the explanations that came with the screen shots, I was convinced online gaming was rigged. Since every screen shot I got was a still, anyone theoretically could no doubt interpret them to whatever one wants to believe. I was sold on the explanations I got from the owner, but after posting only one of them here I was awarded the Tin Hat asshole of the year award. Which I would like to add that the counter response and explanation to that screen shot was not from a regulator, but from an alleged trusted acquaintance of Bryans from RTG.

I choose to no longer gamble online now for over a year, but I certainly can’t wait for it to return regulated; as you should be able to tell from my still present activity here. I also enjoy participating in threads with my views concerning the need for regulation and online gaming, along with staying current on current events that involve online gaming. I too very much enjoyed the different options online gaming offers when compared to live play.

Problem is, regulation costs money and its the players who will foot the bill via lower RTPs and higher charges to deposit and withdraw (which casinos mostly absorb at present).

It isn't going to be the magic bullet that everyone thinks. I choose online over land based every time as my results are way better. I have never been shown anything to make me think that reputable operators lie about rtp figures, and since I only frequent reputable operators, I don't have an issue.

My prediction is that within a year of US online gambling being regulated, everyone will want it back the way it was.

Be careful what you wish for.

FWIW I.don't remember anyone calling you an asshole.

 

[Papa-ya]

My asking about Variance and RTP and such is not because I don't have a clue, I do, just thought it was good information to refresh everyones thoughts on how the games play. This is a good thread and was just helping the subject along.

But members can't vent, be a little negative, not be on the band wagon and now can't even ask things you know and keep it in good terms without being slightly demeaned just for wanting to participate in a good subject that has been cordial in most aspects. Is there nothing that some of us can say that isn't going to be dissected, looking for a fault in the poster, instead of just exchanging information? Guess not.

 

[Nifty29]

My asking about Variance and RTP and such is not because I don't have a clue, I do, just thought it was good information to refresh everyones thoughts on how the games play. This is a good thread and was just helping the subject along.

But members can't vent, be a little negative, not be on the band wagon and now can't even ask things you know and keep it in good terms without being slightly demeaned just for wanting to participate in a good subject that has been cordial in most aspects. Is there nothing that some of us can say that isn't going to be dissected, looking for a fault in the poster, instead of just exchanging information? Guess not.

OK, but if you already knew it all, why didn't you explain it yourself instead of asking someone else? Doesn't make sense.

Enzo and others wrote some great posts on the subject which could easily have been found via search.

Anyway, I don't think anyone was being "demeaned" here....some of us were just surprised at the question. No harm in that, and was all expressed quite cordially.

You've lost me with the venting/negative/bandwagon comment I'm afraid. Would you care to explain that one?

 

[P.V.]

Game Fairness in Two Universes

Here's an interesting article that might help a few followers of the thread. The article talks about:

Fairness for an Internet casino game is often understood by the notion that the game operates in the Internet casino in a manner that is indistinguishable from the same game as offered in a brick and mortar (B&M) casino. In principle this is a reasonable guidepost. In practice, there are some fundamental problems with this definition. The problems that arise from this definition are best explained by example.

Link: Old / Expired Link

Enjoy, it's a good read!

 

[maxd]

Is there nothing that some of us can say that isn't going to be dissected, looking for a fault in the poster, instead of just exchanging information? Guess not.

No offense, but tighten up your panties a little. If you're constantly kvetching about every little comment on the forums then you're as much or more a part of a problem as anyone else. AFAICT there was nothing there that any reasonable person should take offense at.

Furthermore, if you've got complaints of this nature then Report 'em. If that doesn't suit you then keep it to yourself. This "can I get special attention here? Guess not" stuff is basically just another form of trollish behaviour. You can definitely keep that to yourself.

 

[4 of a kind]

That article written by Eliot Jacobson that P.V. linked us to is of course a good read. In fact for members that didn't know or remember, Eliot once was a frequent poster here.

Eliot is a well known respected technician in the industry. I certainly couldn't speak on his behalf or beliefs, but I would bet dollars to donuts that he is in favor of serious regulation and serious monitoring by regulator enforcement. Since he is presently involved in this field I also would assume he has to be careful what he says and how he says it.

Below I pulled some of his text and highlighted some of what he said which I think strikes the doubt nerve of most online gamers.


The gist of the problem of Internet casino game fairness is summarized by four weaknesses:

1. Fairness is defined in a way that makes it impossible to fully test. The best an audit can accomplish is to determine that a game is fair “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
2. Some of those who are doing fairness testing make statements that are vague, incomplete or misleading.
3. Players are not satisfied with fairness test results in the face of their own knowledge and experience.
4. The industry has a history of crooked casinos and auditing companies.

At the very least, game fairness consists of a casino software company who creates fair games to the best of their ability, a licensee who provides well built software in good faith and immediately reports any potential fairness problems up the line, and an independent and trusted auditing company who stakes their reputation on their fairness certification protocols.

“In truth, the specifics of an individual audit do not matter too much to the public. Much more important is the fact of the audit, and whether the auditors (or the association or standard-setting entity) is respected, known and trusted, and whether it continues to work with or associate with the company subject to the audit. Eventually the dishonest or incompetent companies will exit the industry through the garbage chute.”


The industry having a history of crooked casinos and auditors is not a comforting statement for players. Let's also not forget that this history is based only on the ones that were already caught, usually a result of just being careless and obvious. Who is making sure that the ones never caught are in fact honest? Maybe their just smarter crooks then the stupid crooks that got caught.

Maybe when the software is issued to casinos the games are fair, but who is confirming that once the software after being in the hands of a casino owner isn't being tampered with? I was told from that bitter RTG owner who very well may be full of shit, that only 4 or 5 RTG casino owners who all actually came from the RTG software company itself, are the only ones that have that Super User Account access. Who is making sure that the person who said this is in fact full of shit? An anonymous third party acquaintance doesn't confirm anything for me.

Then his closing quote stating "Eventually the dishonest or incompetent companies will exit the industry through the garbage chute" doesn't hold much water either after reviewing the past decade (actually longer) of events. Virtual brand comes to mind quickly just to name one. Who is making sure that comment is in fact being enforced? Bryan and Max?

I know most of the casinos listed in casinomeisters rogue pit (just one pit of many others out there,) are not a result of rigged software, but still confirmed crooks in one shape or form. What good is winning with honest software if you can't collect it? Review these rogue lists and see who still is operating under the same names or have just re-branded to another name not caught yet. Personally I think the garbage chute got clogged.

On a personal note I stand pact on my decision to quit online gaming just based on my personal experiences, and am convinced that regulation with enforcement regardless what the cost is or how much that cost will cut into RTP's is worth every penny of it. I certainly can't find any forums complaining about players getting screwed endlessly involving regulated land based casinos. I only could find sites like the "Wizard Of Odds" teaching players how to gain their best chances of a win, being based on known confirmed regulated facts.

 

[nisosbar]

My asking about Variance and RTP and such is not because I don't have a clue, I do, just thought it was good information to refresh everyones thoughts on how the games play. This is a good thread and was just helping the subject along.

But members can't vent, be a little negative, not be on the band wagon and now can't even ask things you know and keep it in good terms without being slightly demeaned just for wanting to participate in a good subject that has been cordial in most aspects. Is there nothing that some of us can say that isn't going to be dissected, looking for a fault in the poster, instead of just exchanging information? Guess not.

I apologize if you took offense, really. I did not mean it that way at all.

 

[felicie]

No offense, but tighten up your panties a little. If you're constantly kvetching about every little comment on the forums then you're as much or more a part of a problem as anyone else. AFAICT there was nothing there that any reasonable person should take offense at.

Furthermore, if you've got complaints of this nature then Report 'em. If that doesn't suit you then keep it to yourself. This "can I get special attention here? Guess not" stuff is basically just another form of trollish behaviour. You can definitely keep that to yourself.

Sorry maxd but give me a f--king break. trolling? yeah that's sarcasm alright. from me to you.

 

[jod5413]

Closing my eyes and am gonna keep on walking, walking, walking. Didn't see or hear a thing, no siree, nothing.

 

[Nifty29]

Sorry maxd but give me a f--king break. trolling? yeah that's sarcasm alright. from me to you.

I really hope you're joking.

IMO there are some who just bitch about everything, and more often than not when they are proven wrong or lose an argument. We can't fart in bed without someone whining about it here.

If people aren't prepared to cop some criticism, then they shouldn't post in a public forum. If they want to say what they like without being challenged, let them start a blog.

It's almost as poor form as returning to a forum under a different alias so that one can distance themselves from their past behaviour.

I'm sure max spoke for more than a few others when he said what he did.

 

[felicie]

Closing my eyes and am gonna keep on walking, walking, walking. Didn't see or hear a thing, no siree, nothing.

Tell me something jod do you ever contribute anything to this forum aside from your opinions about everyone else?

 

[felicie]

I really hope you're joking.

IMO there are some who just bitch about everything, and more often than not when they are proven wrong or lose an argument. We can't fart in bed without someone whining about it here.

If people aren't prepared to cop some criticism, then they shouldn't post in a public forum. If they want to say what they like without being challenged, let them start a blog.

It's almost as poor form as returning to a forum under a different alias so that one can distance themselves from their past behaviour.

I'm sure max spoke for more than a few others when he said what he did.

No I'm not joking Nifty it's just more of the usual and I'm just fed up with it I guess. No fight with you or anyone really. Just had enough. Have a good one.

 

[jod5413]

Tell me something jod do you ever contribute anything to this forum aside from your opinions about everyone else?

Wow, that's a tough question, Felicie. I would have thought that some of my posts here had value. Otherwise you would look fairly stupid, since you have, in fact, thanked me a time or two.

Why don't you set up a poll and we'll have to see what others think!

 

[maxd]

Sorry maxd but give me a f--king break. trolling?

Yes, when someone -- anyone, not necessarily the person identified above -- wanders around the forum dropping snarky little comments like "is this <something they apparently disapprove of and have gone to some lengths to identify as being particularly odious> allowed here? Guess so" then yes, they are being a troll because:

a troll is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages ... with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to disrupt normal on-topic discussion ...

The point is that those "guess so" type of comments are not constructive in any way. They don't contribute to the discussion, they don't offer any insight or make a useful observation. They're just miffy little whinges basically intended to damage the reputation of the place and tell other forum readers that they think the forums are crap, without (of course) coming right out and making a coherent criticism. That's being a troll, in spades.

Take this for example:

... do you ever contribute anything to this forum aside from your opinions about everyone else?

How does that contribute to the discussion at hand, or even the forums in general? From what I see it does not. It's you complaining out loud about someone who's posts you apparently don't like. And what exactly does that add to the discussion? What is such a thing even supposed to accomplish? Not much, right? It's basically just "I don't like your posts". And how is this an appropriate place to make such a statement or that an appropriate way to do so? In fact it isn't appropriate, on either count. It's basically just a off-topic personal attack for the sake of making a personal attack and (supposedly) pressuring the person in question to limit or stop their posting. Hmmm, sounds like flaming -- "messages that harass, insult, belittle, or threaten" -- and trollish to boot.

If you have any doubt about how that kind of behaviour is seen have a boo at the Forum Rules, items 1.1 and 1.14.

And you might want to look to your own attitude a little: "give me a f--king break" is hardly a suitable public response to anyone's post, never mind a forum Moderator. If you've got a complaint of this nature -- basically an objection to how a Moderator is doing his job -- then either "Report" it or PM Bryan about it. Either way he'll see it soon and deal with it as he sees fit. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[jetset]

<sigh> An interesting (if repetitive) conversation derailed again by personal squabbling, discourtesy and "ganging up" perceptions.

Can we get back to the topic - I know this has been turned over again and again, but it's an important subject and new views and information usually refresh the debate.