Casinos and Responsible Gambling

[Nate]

All too often we see the term ‘Responsible Gambling’ being used by Casino’s. But have we really taken the time to analyse the exact role they play in promoting ‘True’ responsible gambling? The online industry is actually a different beast compared to Brick and Mortar Casinos. In some jurisdictions, it is against the law to promote gambling on TV or by other means. B&M Casinos are also restricted from enticing players to gamble by offering match bonuses or free credits.

Over the years I have noted a few scenarios which are not in the best interest of responsible gambling. As long as the industry is unregulated (and Casinos are pretty much self regulated in certain areas), these little scenarios will bring them plenty of added profits and actually defeats the true spirit of responsible gambling in its entirety.

I will put forward a few examples and although it seems some scenarios may look like a ‘Benefit to Players’ the actual reason is clear (to me at least). This post takes no bias towards any Software provider and intends no malice to any Casino.

Microgaming

I love the software and I firmly believe that there is no equal to them. However:

Recent developments like Thunderstruck II are actually intended for players to chase achievements. Whilst this may seem harmless, achieving those come at a great cost to the player. In order to unlock features such as free spins, players are enticed to continue playing for rewards, The reward at the end is actually not as great as it is hyped up to be.

Newer games such as Retro Reels and Reel Gems are another beast. They entice players to bet OVER their usual betting patterns in order to reap quick and fast rewards. If you are not a seasoned player and don’t watch your bankroll, you may end up out of pocket and betting above your head faster than you intended.

Tournaments are designed to benefit players with the biggest bankroll. 99 Continues and 50 rebuys hardly supports the philosophy of responsible gambling and entices players in the top half to chase the ultimate award – 1st prize.

Real Time Gaming

A somewhat controversial software in some quarters, specifically with the amount of rogue operations and ‘catchy’ terms and conditions. I must admit, they have a nice variety of games, but often clatter their operations with too much red tape – all in favour of them.

The case that always sticks in my mind is the ‘Student’ fiasco that played out over 100 pages a month or two ago. I cannot fathom how the Casino intended to promote responsible gambling whilst NOT being considerate of the unemployed and pensioners. It was a pitiful excuse in my honest opinion and responsible gambling was used as a scape goat but the intention to safe guard anyone was never really there.

Another gimmick by RTG operators is the inability to flush withdrawals. This is actually enticing the player to come back and reverse the withdrawal. The fact that they will not accept a withdrawal until the time that you are ‘Verified’ is pitiful. All too often, I have seen players complain about the inability to withdraw (because they are not verified) or the withdrawal staying in a ‘pending’ state until such time that it is approved. This in my personal opinion is enticing ‘another run’ and ultimately aimed at players playing out withdrawals before they are processed. Remember, this is in the interest of ALL Gamblers. Many have stronger will power than others… other fall to temptation easily. Do I blame them…? NO… Casinos are aware of this and will use this to their benefit.

A recent introduction by some Casinos of minimum deposits ($45 and more) and minimum withdrawals of $100 plus is typical of the industries stance on responsible gambling.

Another development is that of increasing the minimum bet over 400% on player accounts. This again, is not in the interest of responsible gambling, but in the interest of the Casinos pocket. How are they actually able to determine WHO can afford to play at those stakes??

3Dice

3Dice is a unique software provider with excellent games and service second to none.

A recent introduction of newer games and functions has caught my attention. Ching Ching may be a great game for some; however it is right up the alley of Thunderstruck II. The game entices players to chase the feature by completing a puzzle, and more often than not is not actually worth the time and effort. Whilst just like Thunderstruck II - a BIG hit can occur at any time but players often want to get to the main feature and end up spending more that they actually should.

Another neat feature introduced by 3Dice is the ‘Rainy Day Funds’. When I first played there, I was FULLY supportive of it. I mean which Casino offers an advance to players and asks them to pay it when they withdraw (Or even not at all if you close your account). I found myself using those funds when I had exceeded my Credit Card limits for the day or when I wanted to play and wasn’t able to deposit. Whilst some players regard this as a positive step, I for one am now against it. Being on a higher VIP level means that you receive more rainy day funds. The problem comes in when you never make a withdrawal or are having bad luck and stay away. Loyalty levels decrease and the ‘I owe You’ sticks behind. Players are then actually literally forced into trying to win more in order to cover their Rainy Day Funds and take the balance as a withdrawal. This may not impact you on $10 or $20… but once you have outstanding rainy day funds of $250 upwards, your cash out goal increases and you more than often end up losing trying to cover those funds up.

Live Wins being published in Chat are another great Idea from 3Dice. Well, kinda… The general belief is that people are winning all the time. It entices the people in chat to play when they see these hits coming through. It is not indicative of the reality (that X lost $500 to win $172.50) and is misleading in general.

Vegas Technology

A variety of games, but tends to have the same feel to all of them. Worth a shot I thought….

I first signed up a couple months ago. Made a few deposits and decided to try the software out. Seeing that my first deposit was $500 I checked to see whether I was able to withdraw a ‘Decent Amount’. To my dismay, Moneybookers was listed as having a MAX withdrawal of $500 per week. What got to me was the fact that you could deposit as much as you wanted via Moneybookers but could only withdraw $500. I was not going to accept this, so I contacted live help. The rep actually tried to make me deposit MORE in order to up my withdrawal limits. Nevertheless, I started a thread about this and the limits were revised. How many other individuals were actually coaxed into depositing more to increase their withdrawal limits? Responsible Gambling… my SHOE!!!

Rival

I played this platform for a short while. I enjoyed the games and didn’t have any issues.

I recently saw a few posts about Rival Casinos offering bonuses on reversed withdrawals? Surely, this is not in the spirit of responsible gambling?

Your Experiences

I have highlighted just a few scenarios which come to mind. Whilst there may be conflicting opinions about my post, the scenarios I have highlighted are definitely NOT in the spirit of responsible gambling... Call it a marketing tool or a feature, the ultimate goal is to increase play.

I have not played on every platform and would appreciate if you could share your experience of any scenario you are aware of, or believe to be against the Responsible Gambling Philosophy.

Nate

 

[UriahHeep]

thank you for your post, Nate.
I think you are underlining some relevant aspects which too often are ignored.

I agree with you 100% but on 3dice since -being myself italian- I cannot play there from many months, and when I was used to play there these new games and features were not active yet.

 

[pinsnpies]

Anyone else think the reverse withdrawal option isn't responsible gambling? You could end up withdrawing £500, reversing it, losing it and then depsiting more to try and chase back those winnings.

 

[rainmaker]

Good post Nate

I think that NetEnt probably is the one platform that takes responsible gaming most seriously.

They gives the player the opportunity to set own gaming limits, budgets, and boundaries. I don`t know if every NetEnt casino has this function, but to my knowledge this is quite standard.

They even have a self-exclusion section in the casinos where the player can exclude himself without even contacting the CS. Just press a button. There are two options (from my account at Betsson) :

1. Don't allow me to login for the next 7 days
You will not be able to login to your Betsson account for the duration of the 7 days cooling of period, but you will still be able to receive newsletters from us via e-mail. Once the 7 days cooling of period ends you will be notified by e-mail.

2.Don't allow me to login for the next 6 months
You will not be able to login to your Betsson account for the duration of the 6 months self-exclusion period and you will not receive newsletters from Betsson via e-mail during this period.

 

[Nifty29]

IMO the responsibility lies squarely with the player.

Nobody is forcing anyone to deposit or 'chase' features.

The casino has the right to assume that players can afford what they deposit, in the same way McDonalds assumes that when you have a meal there you are fully aware of health implications. What next? Maccas installs scales at the register to check you for a healthy BMI before you order?

I think the OP has some valid points and I thank him for posting them, but at the end of the day we need to accept responsibility for our own behavior.

 

[ksech]

Nate, I think you have hit on some relevant items here.
What gets me are the threads where players have asked for their accounts to be closed (for whatever reason), but the casinos continue to send these players promos. To me, this is NOT in the best interest of the player, it encourages the player to keep on depositing. I know I receive promos all the time for casinos I am no longer able to deposit and play at (being in the US), so for a newbie they take the time to read line after line of T&Cs (but many times not), take the time to download the casino, only to find out they cannot play there.

I also agree that offering a reverse bonus is a bogus tactic, the player is almost assured to lose and not make any withdrawal, JMO. And then the limitations for withdrawing for some are "idiotic" in the sense they put a minimum withdrawal amount to an ewallet you've deposited through. If there is no minimum amount to deposit, then I feel there shouldn't be a minimum amount to withdraw. They should keep the amounts the same, IMO.

Also, the thread about changing the minimum betsize for some, but not all, is ludacris. If a casino only wants to cater to the high betting player, then they should state this on their home page, not wait until a player has deposited to find out they are now stuck playing games at a higher bet size than other players. This is prejudicial towards the player. How many "older" players will be trapped by this when they deposit at a casino they haven't played at for a while?

Very good thread!

 

[Nate]

IMO the responsibility lies squarely with the player.

Nobody is forcing anyone to deposit or 'chase' features.

The casino has the right to assume that players can afford what they deposit, in the same way McDonalds assumes that when you have a meal there you are fully aware of health implications. What next? Maccas installs scales at the register to check you for a healthy BMI before you order?

I think the OP has some valid points and I thank him for posting them, but at the end of the day we need to accept responsibility for our own behavior.

Thanks for the comments Nifty. Whilst I agree that nobody is forcing anyone to chase features or deposit, the post was to merely highlight the type of strategies / marketing tactics casinos have resorted to.

We all know that Gambling is a sickness and it is irresponsible for software operators to prey on their clients and employ tactics which look like they beneficial to players when they actually are not. You may have strong will power to differentiate and reason; however there are MANY people trapped in their addiction to gambling. Comparing Macdonalds to Gambling is not a very good comparison. Gambling addiction wrecks lives, destroys families and has lead to people stealing to support the habit. Some people also pay the ultimate price - Their Life. Addiction is widespread and bigger than we might believe.

The idea of some of the games is to complete the acheivements to unlock more rewards or respin features - This IMPO will lead players to playing a Slot more and attemtping to unlock rewards or earn features. Nobody forces people to do this, but im afraid that there are several people who cannot control the habit.

I for one LOVE Thunderstruck II and played it till this very day. The concept is not ideal but I too was curious at getting the features and unlocking free spins. In the end, I believe that irrelevant of the feature that is chosen, the outcome will be the SAME. So why do it in the first place? Maximising potential is the answer - Clever Idea if you ask me.

Nate

______________________________________

Edit:Article Sums up the point im trying to make.

A NORTHERN suburbs federal Labor politician is demanding national action against poker machines which lead gamblers to think they are close to a win.
Wakefield MP Nick Champion today will move a motion in the House of Representatives, calling on the gaming industry and state governments to work together to address what he says is the growing incidence of problem gambling created specifically by the way the machines are configured to hook people in.
His motion says problem gambling has increased "particularly due to the design and structural features of the electronic gaming machines".
Tell us: Do you agree with Nick Champion?
Mr Champion believes the industry must be forced to acknowledge gaming machines can have an insidious effect on problem gamblers because they are deliberately designed to give the impression of "near misses" so vulnerable people think they are close to winning.
"What's happening on the screens is not necessarily what is happening inside the machines," he said.
Mr Champion said electronic gaming machines were specifically designed to attract problem gamblers, leading to major social and economic problems for those affected.
A member of the Right faction, in his first term in Parliament, Mr Champion is a former union official with the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees' Association.
His comments could embarrass Premier Mike Rann, whose government obtained $285 million from poker machine taxes last year.
The call comes as the Senate's Community Affairs Committee awaits a response from the gaming machine industry after seeking details of the design features of the machines.
Fellow South Australian and anti-poker machine campaigner Nick Xenophon welcomed Mr Champion's proposed resolution.
"If the major parties are taking this up, it reflects a wider concern also in the electorate," he said.
State governments have been criticised for adopting a moral tone about the evils of gambling while relying heavily on revenue and GST takings from machines to fund essential services.

Source:

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[Nate]

Anyone else think the reverse withdrawal option isn't responsible gambling? You could end up withdrawing £500, reversing it, losing it and then depsiting more to try and chase back those winnings.

It is irresponsible for them to leave it pending for so long. It is irresponsible for them NOT to FLUSH.

The decision ultimately lies with the player, BUT your intention was to cash out and NOT to continue playing. Temptation is a nasty thing. Players are often lead to reverse withdrawals that could have hit their accounts or have been flushed in the first place.

Unethical and predatory if you ask me.

Nate

 

[De Beuker]

I just want to say that I thank God on my bare knees in the pooring rain that this new respinfeauture from Microgaming was NOT yet there 3 years ago, when I was still a very unexperienced player.

Lets be honest, it only benefits the casino, as the only thing it does is entice players to bet FAR above their normal stakes, thus sucking you dry 10-30 times faster than normal.
I've promised myself not to play these games, and so far, from what I've seen, I cant say I regret that decision.

 

[Vegasbum]

I totally agree with your post Nate . Your take on MG casinos and their new games really hit the mark. While I play MG alot I boycott their new games because of the very reasons you pointed out. I also don't play any of the games that force you to play all lines.

 

[ergopro]

At Casino Euro (Betsson) you can still open a new account, play, lose and as the casino didn't flag your new account think that it's ok only to find out later that your new account is locked and you won't get a dime back. Didn't happen to me, but know someone that had this kinda issue. After you try to ask about their responsible gaming policy, you only get useless yadda yadda.

Of course it's player's fault if he opens a new account deliberately but I think there's a lot of improvement needed on casino's side how to get self-excluded and banned players blocked from opening new accounts.

 

[Deeplay]

I do agree with most of the points raised - but it also comes down to the player if getting in too deep to want to take the step to get help. Not always easy im sure and more can be done by casinos. But no matter what responsible gaming options a casino offers if a person really wants to gamble then they will - we all know how easy it is to find a place online to squander out money

As for 3dice Rainy Day funds yep it can stop you cashing out somtimes but can also work the other way. At least 2 times I have gone in - not made a deposit and used my rainy funds and won enough to cashout after paying back the funds. In effect giving me a withdraw without having to make a deposit in real time. So there is 2 sides to this one. But my rainfunds are not big so damage is marginal. And if you dont want to use the feature then just ignore it or ask CS to remove that option which they probably would ?

 

[LinkinFart]

Nice thread, I was just thinking about this very same thing today.

You forgot to mention Playtech network in op.

Playtech considers "Hide casino games" turned on/off through options in poker client as part of responsible gaming policy. Responsible gaming if you dont need it in the first place.

Also, Playtech, not sure if all Playtech casinos practice this but William Hill owned ones do, will allow player to activate self exclusion for certain period of time and it will be in effect immediately, but if player wishes to play before that exclusion period has ended player only needs to email casino and they will allow him to play again with no hustle at all and just as fast if not faster. You can send an email asking them to exclude you and once they do send another telling them you want to play again and they dont see it as a problem at all. Also, live chat cant activate this, you must contact them through email.



NetEnt.
I must say I like what they`re doing more and more every day. Not all of them have all these limitiations available to player through "My account" or similar, I think I didnt saw this at one establishment at least, but most of the time it doesnt matter for me because I organize my funds in such way that I cant deposit over what I wanted, thank god for debit cards and I dont bother getting a credit card at all. At that one establishment where I dont think I saw all these options when I requested self exclusion for short period of time there was no way to get around it, exclusion is in effect for the period player asked not less and not more.
I usually dont ask for exclusions but this time I had to because this particular casino in question has somewhat complicated system to get the money out of the casino section, stalling would be the right phrasing and its 24h waiting period to hit main account from which one can then request withdrawal, but once I have activated this exclusion, money was in the main account before that 24h period has passed, not much but still at least 6h earlier, and withdrawal was processed the very same day. So at least they played "fair game" so far, no one can blame them for trying as long as they`re not pushing you into reversal like some do.

So its really a trap for really feeble ones not having courage to activate exclusion when they think they might actually reverse it and put another 24h waiting period in effect. I dont blame those people much because as I said I like NetEnt slots more and more and some of them can be very addictive and some do look like they were made by 3 year old kidds but I just dont play those .

On Microgaming,
Although that TS2 unlocking feature is in fact what you say it is I dont find it horrible, just a little extra effort from casino to keep you coming back or continue playing for a little longer. Nothing serious, thats what they`re supposed to do.

Those RESPIN slots, on the other hand, are horrible attempt. I`ll stop it here and wont try to rationalize people and their thought process when they hit respin button. Plain stupid.

On RTG.
They can forget me as their customer. Simple as that.

On Rival.
I dont want to waste any words for any of their casinos, rogued or not. Same as RTG if not worse. Bye bye.

On Vegas Tech.
I dont know, played some tourneys really long time ago but I dont like the sound of their slots and they just repel me. Never bothered to look or test their responsible gaming policy

Did I miss something??? :icon_evil

 

[rainmaker]

LinkinFart:

You can send an email asking them to exclude you and once they do send another telling them you want to play again and they dont see it as a problem at all. Also, live chat cant activate this, you must contact them through email.

If this is the case, then it is very rougish. I would never use a casino that operates in such a way. As a principle.


Nate :

When it comes to the "rainy day" thing from 3dice. I believe that no casino shall allow gambling on credit. I understand that this may be a final comp if the player don`t do another deposit. But regardless, this practice is senseless. I have said this before in an earlier thread, and it is strange that a casino like 3dice have such a "gambling on credit"-practice.

 

[LinkinFart]

Trust me I dont. As a matter of fact I gave up on all Playtech too, regardless of who ownes them.

 

[rainmaker]

Trust me I dont. As a matter of fact I gave up on all Playtech too, regardless of who ownes them.

I have mostly used Centrebet when playing Playtech, and my experience with Centrebet is very good. I think Centrebet is probably one of the best places to play if you want Playtech games.

 

[Nate]

You forgot to mention Playtech network in op.

Playtech considers "Hide casino games" turned on/off through options in poker client as part of responsible gaming policy. Responsible gaming if you dont need it in the first place.

Also, Playtech, not sure if all Playtech casinos practice this but William Hill owned ones do, will allow player to activate self exclusion for certain period of time and it will be in effect immediately, but if player wishes to play before that exclusion period has ended player only needs to email casino and they will allow him to play again with no hustle at all and just as fast if not faster. You can send an email asking them to exclude you and once they do send another telling them you want to play again and they dont see it as a problem at all. Also, live chat cant activate this, you must contact them through email.



NetEnt.
I must say I like what they`re doing more and more every day. Not all of them have all these limitiations available to player through "My account" or similar, I think I didnt saw this at one establishment at least, but most of the time it doesnt matter for me because I organize my funds in such way that I cant deposit over what I wanted, thank god for debit cards and I dont bother getting a credit card at all. At that one establishment where I dont think I saw all these options when I requested self exclusion for short period of time there was no way to get around it, exclusion is in effect for the period player asked not less and not more.
I usually dont ask for exclusions but this time I had to because this particular casino in question has somewhat complicated system to get the money out of the casino section, stalling would be the right phrasing and its 24h waiting period to hit main account from which one can then request withdrawal, but once I have activated this exclusion, money was in the main account before that 24h period has passed, not much but still at least 6h earlier, and withdrawal was processed the very same day. So at least they played "fair game" so far, no one can blame them for trying as long as they`re not pushing you into reversal like some do.

So its really a trap for really feeble ones not having courage to activate exclusion when they think they might actually reverse it and put another 24h waiting period in effect. I dont blame those people much because as I said I like NetEnt slots more and more and some of them can be very addictive and some do look like they were made by 3 year old kidds but I just dont play those .

On Microgaming,
Although that TS2 unlocking feature is in fact what you say it is I dont find it horrible, just a little extra effort from casino to keep you coming back or continue playing for a little longer. Nothing serious, thats what they`re supposed to do.

Those RESPIN slots, on the other hand, are horrible attempt. I`ll stop it here and wont try to rationalize people and their thought process when they hit respin button. Plain stupid.

On RTG.
They can forget me as their customer. Simple as that.

On Rival.
I dont want to waste any words for any of their casinos, rogued or not. Same as RTG if not worse. Bye bye.

On Vegas Tech.
I dont know, played some tourneys really long time ago but I dont like the sound of their slots and they just repel me. Never bothered to look or test their responsible gaming policy

Did I miss something??? :icon_evil

Thanks to all for the positive contributions.

The Respin feature on Microgaming is of concern. When i initially started playing Reel Gems, I tried the respin feature for the free spins once. I got it on the first attempt. Tried only one more time and opted against it because of the huge cost involved. Nevertheless, I got the Free Spins a few spins later and it didn't make sense that I needed to pay 80 x my bet to TRY and get a symbol.

There obviously will be individuals who will be lucky enough to hit a symbol on the first spin. The vast majority will end up losing faster.

Thunderstruck II is an awesome game. I love the game and the game play. Like i suggested earlier, i believe that irrelevant of the feature chosen, the outcome will remain the same. The reason i quoted it as misleading is because players are under the impression that as free spins are unlocked, the rewards are greater. If you think of it, the FIRST free spin option is actually the best. All spins and Wins x 5.

Reading through the threads has brought my attention once again to another MG issue. Forcing players to increase their deposits or play in order to unlock comp points that they have already earned.... Another blatant disregard...


What is the industry coming to?

Nate

 

[Deeplay]

Thanks to all for the positive contributions.

The Respin feature on Microgaming is of concern. When i initially started playing Reel Gems, I tried the respin feature for the free spins once. I got it on the first attempt. Tried only one more time and opted against it because of the huge cost involved. Nevertheless, I got the Free Spins a few spins later and it didn't make sense that I needed to pay 80 x my bet to TRY and get a symbol.

There obviously will be individuals who will be lucky enough to hit a symbol on the first spin. The vast majority will end up losing faster.

Thunderstruck II is an awesome game. I love the game and the game play. Like i suggested earlier, i believe that irrelevant of the feature chosen, the outcome will remain the same. The reason i quoted it as misleading is because players are under the impression that as free spins are unlocked, the rewards are greater. If you think of it, the FIRST free spin option is actually the best. All spins and Wins x 5.

Reading through the threads has brought my attention once again to another MG issue. Forcing players to increase their deposits or play in order to unlock comp points that they have already earned.... Another blatant disregard...


What is the industry coming to?

Nate

In regards to T2 I agree. After playing this slot alot and choosing from all differnt fs features I dont think it makes a difference what you choose. I have had big wins and low wins on all 4. I think the only difference is the more fs the more shots you have at a win. But in the end if this slot wants to pay it will no matter what you click and if it dont then your screwed another side note the only reason I now choose the last fs feature is it seems to last longer now that is sad !!

 

[De Beuker]

I have mostly used Centrebet when playing Playtech, and my experience with Centrebet is very good. I think Centrebet is probably one of the best places to play if you want Playtech games.

The only reputable Playtech that I can play.
Man, I was sooo dissapointed to see they did not have the Marvell slots!
I mean, I finally found a non-rogue Playtech I can play, and still NO Iron Man!

For TSII, from looking at the WSS to me it seems the Loki feauture is the one with the highest potential.
I've seen 1000x bet and over on that one.
How can you hit 1000x bet on that first feauture?
5 oak pictures on every spin?

 

[Nate]

For TSII, from looking at the WSS to me it seems the Loki feauture is the one with the highest potential.
I've seen 1000x bet and over on that one.
How can you hit 1000x bet on that first feauture?
5 oak pictures on every spin?

Didn't see that. You are probably right as the Wild Magic is able to replicate several times. 5 x Wilds on the First Feature (x5)?

Nate

 

[plasticnote]

Didn't see that. You are probably right as the Wild Magic is able to replicate several times. 5 x Wilds on the First Feature (x5)?

Nate

On the 1st feature you can get 1000x + wins. However it a bit harder.
for example:

5 scatters 200x bets x5

or you hit 5 thors with wilds few times.

3rd and 4th type of feature I think pay is much lower

 

[Simmo!]

Good topic for debate Nate

Anyone else think the reverse withdrawal option isn't responsible gambling? You could end up withdrawing £500, reversing it, losing it and then depsiting more to try and chase back those winnings.

Yes. It does have the advantage for casinos of potentially reducing processing fees but if they are truly compliant with responsible gambling guidelines then they should allow players to have this removed on request at the very least IMO. A la 32Red. IGT and Crypto casinos don't have RW at all which is to be applauded.


On 3Dice: I think it's worth mentioning the "3Dice Safe" which allows players to store money and set withdrawal/play limits on it - a great idea IMO.

One further point that surprised me recently, while testing Victor Chandler's casino I asked for a deposit limit and was told "that is not an option on slots play". It would appear it's not an option, period. With a Gib licence, I was very surprised it wasn't an enforceable term.

 

[Tengil]

Good topic for debate Nate



Yes. It does have the advantage for casinos of potentially reducing processing fees but if they are truly compliant with responsible gambling guidelines then they should allow players to have this removed on request at the very least IMO. A la 32Red. IGT and Crypto casinos don't have RW at all which is to be applauded.


On 3Dice: I think it's worth mentioning the "3Dice Safe" which allows players to store money and set withdrawal/play limits on it - a great idea IMO.

One further point that surprised me recently, while testing Victor Chandler's casino I asked for a deposit limit and was told "that is not an option on slots play". It would appear it's not an option, period. With a Gib licence, I was very surprised it wasn't an enforceable term.

When I used to play at MG casinos you couldnt set deposit limits for webwallets or an overall spending limit. Only worked at those with own "banking systems", like Ladbrokes and Unibet.

 

[Simmo!]

When I used to play at MG casinos you couldnt set deposit limits for webwallets or an overall spending limit. Only worked at those with own "banking systems", like Ladbrokes and Unibet.

That's generally true, although Belle Rock have that feature built in but at least pretty much every MG will set a limit on request and usually pretty quickly.

 

[Tengil]

That's generally true, although Belle Rock have that feature built in but at least pretty much every MG will set a limit on request and usually pretty quickly.

Last year I was told its impossible and limits could only be set to cards. And if you reached your card limit you could still deposit with webwallets.

 

[Nate]

Good topic for debate Nate



Yes. It does have the advantage for casinos of potentially reducing processing fees but if they are truly compliant with responsible gambling guidelines then they should allow players to have this removed on request at the very least IMO. A la 32Red. IGT and Crypto casinos don't have RW at all which is to be applauded.


On 3Dice: I think it's worth mentioning the "3Dice Safe" which allows players to store money and set withdrawal/play limits on it - a great idea IMO.

One further point that surprised me recently, while testing Victor Chandler's casino I asked for a deposit limit and was told "that is not an option on slots play". It would appear it's not an option, period. With a Gib licence, I was very surprised it wasn't an enforceable term.

Thanks for the feedback Simmo,

Being able to set up a deposit limit is a great start from Casinos. It doesn't prevent anyone from hopping to the next Casino to deposit. It does prevent people redepositing in order to chase a win on a game after a period of long losses.

How Casinos are Marketed seem to be an important factor and as someone (I think VWM) noted in another post - Adverts rarely and almost never mention the 'Loss' part of it. I mean who would want to play at a place that advertises you can lose? Although this is a reality, it is a factor that may put people off....

The 3dice safe feature is a super move by 3Dice. It has its positives like not needing to make another deposit to claim bonuses (and benefits as you pinted out above). The negative bit comes in when the money never leaves the casino to begin with. Although you can lock this, money never gets to your hand. We often lose track of the true value of money when it is displayed as credits in a casino.

Another thing that has sprung to mind since you mentioned 3dice is their Slogan : "Be a Player, Be A Winner" .... misleading IMHO. I have seen B&M Casinos asked to remove similar types of Slogans. The regulators were quick to point out that being a player didn't necessarily mean you would be a winner. Valid point!!

Are there any Casino slogans that you may also be aware of that are misleading or not in the Spirit of Responsible Gambling?

Nate

 

[LinkinFart]

Thanks for the feedback Simmo,


Another thing that has sprung to mind since you mentioned 3dice is their Slogan : "Be a Player, Be A Winner" .... misleading IMHO. I have seen B&M Casinos asked to remove similar types of Slogans. The regulators were quick to point out that being a player didn't necessarily mean you would be a winner. Valid point!!

Are there any Casino slogans that you may also be aware of that are misleading or not in the Spirit of Responsible Gambling?

Nate

Actually, I think its against the law in my country to advertise slogans which imply you WILL be a winner. Only adverts promoting possibility of win are allowed.

 

[Simmo!]

Last year I was told its impossible and limits could only be set to cards. And if you reached your card limit you could still deposit with webwallets.

That's a fair point - there used to be a restriction with MG software that didn't allow (all/some?) webwallets to have deposit limits set I believe. I aksed 32Red to limit my Neteller waaay back and they said they couldn't however, to their credit, when the feature was introduced they emailed me to say they could now do it and would I like a limit set. So it can be done now.

It's also a little known fact that MG implemented a feature for operators that allow them to remove the Reverse Withdrawal "feature" from accounts on a player-by-player basis. Again, 32Red will do that but everyone else I have asked (and to be fair, that's not everyone) said they can't. Presumably they mean that they "won't" LOL. With those that offer manual flushing however it's not so important as that's a good workaround option.

 

[De Beuker]

Didn't see that. You are probably right as the Wild Magic is able to replicate several times. 5 x Wilds on the First Feature (x5)?

Nate

Can't believe you missed it!

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/forums/threads/show-me-the-money-screenshots-min-1000xbet.32622/

In case the link dont work, Show me the Money thread, page 33, post 329.

Very impressive hit from Plastiknote.:notworthy

 

[Nate]

Can't believe you missed it!

https://sussexmskpartnershipeast.com/forums/threads/show-me-the-money-screenshots-min-1000xbet.32622/

In case the link dont work, Show me the Money thread, page 33, post 329.

Very impressive hit from Plastiknote.:notworthy

I see where you're coming from... VERY Impressive Hit... I know i missed it.. Thanks De Beuker

 

[Da_Gambla]

Here in Los Angeles, we are hit with all kinds of advertising on the tele. We obviously get tons of Vegas ads, but interestingly enough, they really don't focus on gambling, but the 'let loose and be wild' part. The famous slogan is "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas". It was an initial marketing strategy that was expanded, and has continued to be used in various forms today. We have individual hotels/groups that advertise, too, and kind of playing along the lines of Las Vegas in general, one slogan is "Just the right amount of wrong". In all Vegas ads, there are plenty of 'scenes' of gambling, so the images are obviously well placed. The Indian casino boom has obviously caused Vegas to shift from a gambling point of view, to an 'experience'. None of these ads mention losing, whether in the form of money gambling, or the loss of your relationships should you partake in 'the right amount of wrong' that should 'stay in Vegas'.

As mentioned, we have the Indian casinos. They are much more up front about the gambling aspect, since they are well placed to steal potential business from Vegas. They tout bonuses, tournaments, special events, all mostly centered around gambling and winning. These ads run relentlessly on the tele and the radio. They never mentioning losing.

Then we have the California Super Lotto Lottery, and the multi-state Mega Millions Lottery. These adverts never cease. They are absolutely everywhere. Tele, radio, buses, billboards, every store that is a merchant. I'm not sure you can get up any particular day and NOT see several Lotto ads during the day. They do not beat around the bush at all about what they are selling: WINNING! With slogans like "Who will be next?" or "Will YOU be next?", it's obviously all about playing on the human urge to gamble. Sometimes they even run 'infomercial' type programs that show a couple multi-million winners, and how it changed their lives. The small print in all adverts is simply "Please play responsibly". If you go to their homepage, there is absolutely NO visible verbiage or link to problem gambling. To find this information, you have to click on "Consumer Protection Information". A sublink there says "Player Resources" which takes you to a site section that explains how to safeguard your tickets, avoid scams, etc. FINALLY, one last sublink is "Play Responsibly", which then finally gets you to a page with gambling problem information. If you have a problem gambling, they certainly do not want to make it easy for you to find this information. Nothing on their website mentions anything about losing anything. You're not the next loser, you're the next potential winner.

There's also horse racing, and we have 4 available tracks running separate seasonal meets, so there's horse racing adverts all year round.

Finally, we get to alcohol. This is by far a greater addiction and threat than all gambling combined. This product causes people to do a LOT more than part with their money... it kills, in so many ways, I won't waste post space on it. Suffice to say that, there's plenty of alcohol adverts EVERYWHERE. If you go B&M gambling, consuming alcohol is encouraged. Nothing like bankroll management with a .07 or better blood alcohol level. Whenever I sit down at a gaming table in Vegas, a waitress immediately tends to my beverage of choice. When served my drink, there is never a slip of paper provided with it warning me that consuming this beverage will impair my judgment; about anything! That's fine with me, I have never had an addictive personality, so I've never had a gambling problem OR a drinking problem.

When we talk about 'responsible gaming', I see lots of mention of casino slogans, limiting deposits, excluding one's self from gaming, either temporarily or permanently, but where are these things in all the above I've outlined?

You cannot call Vegas City Hall and have yourself excluded from gambling. You might be able to at individual hotels/casinos, but what does that really accomplish? A person with a problem needs actual TREATMENT, not exclusion or limits (actually, 'limiting' a problem gambler is fairly LOL in reality). It's up to THEM, not me, to decide on when they are ready for that treatment. Similarly, how does online casinos offering exclusions and limits actually help a problem gambler? It really doesn't. I guess it just makes everyone but the problem gambler feel better about themselves. The problem gambler will still have the problem until he or she seeks actual intervention or treatment.

The Casinomeister Standards for Accredited Casinos already goes way beyond anything I've spoken about above, and frankly, it's my opinion that I could do with a LOT LESS, due to the fact it's really annoying to someone who doesn't have these problems. But from a social aspect, I'm glad it exists, so I'm not going to openly bitch about it and request less of it. I'm capable of filtering annoying stuff that, to me, is just another form of SPAM.

So the question is, why is online gambling singled out with requests of exclusions, limits, slogans that don't promote what they want to promote?

Slogans alone is kind of funny to isolate... Online casinos with a 'slogan' that promotes winners is deceptive? Like, in relation to what? I mean, LOL, the whole advertising industry is based on various amounts of deception. Slogans have become widely accepted as capable of being funny, whimsical, serious, outlandish, shocking, any flavour you wish. We all know it's a slogan and we take them all with a grain of salt. A truly deceptive slogan is simply one that has nothing to do with said business, like a Fish 'n Chips restaurant with a slogan 'Best Burgers in Town'. That's deceptive, yet it's also funny, and probably someone would try to use it.

"Be a Player, Be A Winner" is misleading? I mean, how, exactly? It's a slogan! Dr. Pepper used to have a slogan "Be A Pepper!" What does that mean, exactly? Since I can't actually physically become a pepper, is this misleading? How about the Lotto example slogans listed above, "Are You Next?" Is this misleading? Doesn't matter if you say yes or no, as it's just your opinion at that point, and obviously the government here is fine with it.

Why do casinos need to mention that you can lose? Is there anyone in the house here that thinks they can't lose money gambling? Better yet, is this such a huge problem that we have to ensure everyone understands it every time they view an advert? I'm only going to have a problem if I see an advert that says "You Can't Lose!". Actually, forgive me, I'm not going to have a problem, I'm going to deposit, lose, and then sue them, because that is just truly a lie.

Sorry, I wish I had the time to save everyone with a problem, but it just becomes annoying to me after awhile. It never ends. There's 10k people out there right now who, although don't have a current social problem, will definitely have one in a few years. I'm a big advocate of responsibility, but IT GOES BOTH WAYS. I do not consider a person with a gambling addiction, or an alcoholic, to be a victim of these respective industries, and I don't believe offering or advertising those products to us who don't have a problem is wrong. Addictions are diseases which require treatment, not limits or less advertising.

my .02 though I took a nickel..

- Keith

 

[rainmaker]

.

"Be a Player, Be A Winner" is misleading? I mean, how, exactly? It's a slogan! Dr. Pepper used to have a slogan "Be A Pepper!" What does that mean, exactly? Since I can't actually physically become a pepper, is this misleading? How about the Lotto example slogans listed above, "Are You Next?" Is this misleading? Doesn't matter if you say yes or no, as it's just your opinion at that point, and obviously the government here is fine with it.

- Keith

I would think that the slogan "Be a Player, Be a Winner" also would have been prohibited here in Norway. In Norway, a company can not advertise with slogans that gives false or incorrect expectations. This slogan will fulfill both of these two demands.

The slogan would have been more correct if it was "Be a Player, Be a Loser".

I'm no fan of banning slogans, I'm just saying what the practice in Norway is.

 

[Da_Gambla]

I would think that the slogan "Be a Player, Be a Winner" also would have been prohibited here in Norway. In Norway, a company can not advertise with slogans that gives false or incorrect expectations. This slogan will fulfill both of these two demands.

The slogan would have been more correct if it was "Be a Player, Be a Loser".

I'm no fan of banning slogans, I'm just saying what the practice in Norway is.

Just out of curiosity, is this prohibition specific to gambling slogans, or all advertising? I'd be interested in understanding the exact law and how they distinguish between those that are allowed versus those that aren't.

In my interpretation of that slogan, there is nothing guaranteed being implied. It is a request for you to participate. According to what you're saying about Norwegian advertising laws, if I have a restaurant and a slogan that says "Bring your appetite, leave fulfilled!", I'd have to change it to, "Bring your appetite, leave with heart disease!"

Pretty bizarre... here in the US, I guess we have a lot more tolerance to advertising, and especially with slogans.

- Keith

 

[alkazam]

I think that NetEnt probably is the one platform that takes responsible gaming and MG

 

[rainmaker]

Just out of curiosity, is this prohibition specific to gambling slogans, or all advertising? I'd be interested in understanding the exact law and how they distinguish between those that are allowed versus those that aren't.

In my interpretation of that slogan, there is nothing guaranteed being implied. It is a request for you to participate. According to what you're saying about Norwegian advertising laws, if I have a restaurant and a slogan that says "Bring your appetite, leave fulfilled!", I'd have to change it to, "Bring your appetite, leave with heart disease!"

Pretty bizarre... here in the US, I guess we have a lot more tolerance to advertising, and especially with slogans.

- Keith

Statements made in advertising will have to be proved. This is the basis for the law about advertising in Norway. This will apply regardless of industry.

If for example a company uses "we have the most satisfied customers in Norway", then they would have to prove it (reliable survey etc). To state that a player will be a winner is probably to go too far. I think that this advertise would have been prohibited in many European countries.

Bit strange, because Europe is quite liberal when it comes to other things (compared to USA). But customers have a very strong protection in Norway

Of course, common sense must used in these cases.

 

[De Beuker]

Maybe you cannot self exclude yourself from a B&M in the US, here in Holland you definately can.
Holland Casino, or the local arcade, give them your passphoto and say you want be excluded and they wont let you in for a year, no matter if you beg on your knees.
I think thats a good thing.
Ofcourse you can travel to the next city and play there, but thats more difficult to do already.

And responsible gaming ethics are ofcourse much more important if it comes to online gaming.
If I want to play B&M, I have to plan it, leave my house, travel 50 miles by car, get the damn thing parked, etc. etc.
If I want to play online, its just 2 mouseclicks and I'm there.
Makes a HUGE difference.

And responsible gaming does not only apply to hardcore addicts.
Hardcore addicts need help, but between a hardcore addict and a recreational gambler, there's a HUGE grey area of people who are not addicted, but could use at least SOME help to control the habit to prevent it from running out of hand.
Not everyone has the same level of self control, but having a little less self control does not mean you're an addict.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Statements made in advertising will have to be proved. This is the basis for the law about advertising in Norway. This will apply regardless of industry.

If for example a company uses "we have the most satisfied customers in Norway", then they would have to prove it (reliable survey etc). To state that a player will be a winner is probably to go too far. I think that this advertise would have been prohibited in many European countries.

Bit strange, because Europe is quite liberal when it comes to other things (compared to USA). But customers have a very strong protection in Norway

Of course, common sense must used in these cases.

Well, those 2 slogans are different. One is making a direct claim, the other indirect. In the US, if you make a direct claim, it needs to be backed up, but again, there is substantial leeway given with slogans.

I can have my restaurant slogan say "The best food in America" and I won't have to actually prove that. If I say "Nothing but 100% pure beef", then that will come under scrutiny.

Using 'be' in an advert here is an invitation, not a guarantee you WILL become that. For example, a branch of our military for years had the slogan "Be all you can be". This is widely accepted as an invitation, not a guarantee. So when I see "Be a player, be a winner", I am programmed to interpret that as "choose our company".

You have interpreted it as "If you play here, you WILL be a winner", and well, the problem is, you are adding words to create a meaning that may not have been intended by the slogan. This is also why slogans are usually very short, because they are supposed to play on our brains. Take the Nike slogan "Just do it". Do what? Become a mass murderer, a better athlete, or buy shoes? It doesn't say, and that's intentional with slogans.

- Keith

 

[Nate]

"Be a Player, Be A Winner" is misleading? I mean, how, exactly? It's a slogan! Dr. Pepper used to have a slogan "Be A Pepper!" What does that mean, exactly? Since I can't actually physically become a pepper, is this misleading? How about the Lotto example slogans listed above, "Are You Next?" Is this misleading? Doesn't matter if you say yes or no, as it's just your opinion at that point, and obviously the government here is fine with it.
- Keith

There is a difference in the above. One is a statement... The other a Question...

Gambling, just like Alcohol and Cigarettes can become serious addictions. The difference with the above is that Cigarettes and Alcohol have no 'Monetary Rewards' at the end... You are not lead to believe that you can be a 'Winner' ..... (In some Cases Alcohol will make you think you CAN and WILL Score ...lol ... ). Some countries have warnings for Nicotine and Alcohol.

Certain regulatory bodies (they obviously differ worldwide) do not condone and specify that bets may not be accepted from visibly intoxicated patrons. If this is really enforced in some quarters, I don't know. Nobody cares about that online. You can sit, get totally smashed.

Advertising is a cut throat business. I have noted that Casino adverts on TV actually focus on the 'Entertainment' venues rather than gambling - You are correct in saying this. This could be due to regulatory requirements.

As you also pointed out, your interpretation may be different to that of others. It's a fair statement, although the statement IMPO is misleading.

And responsible gaming ethics are ofcourse much more important if it comes to online gaming.
If I want to play B&M, I have to plan it, leave my house, travel 50 miles by car, get the damn thing parked, etc. etc.
If I want to play online, its just 2 mouseclicks and I'm there.
Makes a HUGE difference.

And responsible gaming does not only apply to hardcore addicts.
Hardcore addicts need help, but between a hardcore addict and a recreational gambler, there's a HUGE grey area of people who are not addicted, but could use at least SOME help to control the habit to prevent it from running out of hand.
Not everyone has the same level of self control, but having a little less self control does not mean you're an addict.

Quite correct De Beuker. Internet Gambling is so widely available, if not controlled, some people will fall wayside. It is important for people not to have false expectations. With Da_Gambla's example above, the National Lottery is putting a question forward to you... 'Are You Next'? - This to me is not saying that you will be a winner and will pose doubts in the minds of individuals.

The Slogan 'Be a Player, Be a Winner' is a direct statement and will be illegal in many jurisdictions.

Im glad that countires like Norway are (from the sound of it) good with Consumer protection. Casinos are business entities and their ultimate goal in marketing is to attract players. When it is done in somewhat controversial manner, thats where the problem comes in.

I have recently noted a 'new form' of advertising circulating with regards to Internet Casinos. A flash screen playing a slot machine hitting a winning combination and a celebration win displayed in the form of coins spilling over. They are also often accompanied by statements like 'Play Now'... Your thoughts on this?

Nate

 

[Da_Gambla]

There is a difference in the above. One is a statement... The other a Question...

Wow. Where would one begin in pointing out how narrow that is, and in the next breath thank their God that everything on this planet is not this black or white. You must just be trying really really hard for a debate point, because if you really thought that we should separate every slogan by whether it's a statement or a question, that'd be scary.

Gambling, just like Alcohol and Cigarettes can become serious addictions. The difference with the above is that Cigarettes and Alcohol have no 'Monetary Rewards' at the end... You are not lead to believe that you can be a 'Winner' ..... (In some Cases Alcohol will make you think you CAN and WILL Score ...lol ... ). Some countries have warnings for Nicotine and Alcohol.

Actually, wrong again. You can gain lots of things that, although do not contain actual dollar signs, still be coveted 'rewards'. In the case of cigarettes and alcohol, they are selling cool, and they always have. Alcohol ads are ridiculous. They are selling cool and sex. You will find very few alcohol ads that don't indicate that you will be partying and scoring some very fine women if you buy their alcohol.

There isn't a single thing advertised that doesn't contain a reward. Why would you buy their product if it didn't have a reward? You have an itch? Buy this itch cream, and you will be rewarded with no more itching. The whole point to any advertising is to sell the reward your product offers. What product does a casino offer? Winning money? Anything else? Why should they be banned from making their reward known? Can you come up with one good slogan for a casino that would be approved by you, yet still represent what they do? Seriously...

Certain regulatory bodies (they obviously differ worldwide) do not condone and specify that bets may not be accepted from visibly intoxicated patrons.

Nate, with all due respect, argue what you know. I visit land based casinos quite regularly. They not only would like you to enjoy a stiff drink, they will give it to you FREE if you just step up to a table and buy in.

There's a HUGE difference between 'impaired' (which they quite enjoy) and 'visibly intoxicated' (which is against the law). They will take any and every wager you can imagine (through every stage of impairment) right up to the point where you are visibly intoxicated. I think this is a fairly flat argument, due to the fact that if you were sitting in front of your computer at a point of intoxication to where a casino would have to escort you out, you're not going to be able to make sense out of your computer monitor to click on it. Assuming, of course, you could find your mouse.

The Slogan 'Be a Player, Be a Winner' is a direct statement and will be illegal in many jurisdictions.

Your theory then is, that every slogan that is a statement should be illegal? I'm sure you didn't mean that, so let's assume you actually meant any statement that's misleading. Gotchya. Well, let's break this down into hard core technical terms, because in my opinion, you are reading way too far into such a small slogan, and even adding things that aren't there.

Be a player: If you make a deposit and wager on any game in their lineup, you are now certainly a player. Check. Nothing misleading.

Be a winner: Have you, or do you know anyone that made a deposit and lost every single wager they ever made? I haven't, but it could exist. If it does exist, it's quite rare. So that being said, we all win some wagers, lose other wagers. It's usually a slow drain south, but in the meantime, RTP suggests that at least SOME of your wagers are being returned to play through again, if you choose. So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER. That's a win, plain and simple. Not the win you wanted, but did the statement "Be a winner" guarantee you a win above your wager, or a cumulative win above your deposit? No, of course it didn't. If you supply YOUR definition of winner, or the definition you just want to create, then you can make this slogan, or any slogan for that matter, misleading. You can take any slogan ever invented, show it to 100 people, and probably always find at least one person who could create something offensive or misleading about it. IMO, that doesn't mean it should be outlawed. Over my lifetime, I have certainly grown tired of people telling me what I should see, hear or do, or what I shouldn't see, hear or do.

If you are deeply impacted by all of this rather benign advertising that casinos do, then I will have no other recourse than to assume you have a personal gambling problem. If you do, I wish you the best in recovering. What I have tried to convey is, if you remove all of these 'offensive' and 'misleading' things that concern online casinos (your definition of them), you will still have a gambling problem. The only solution for a gambling problem is treatment, not trying to control everyone else's world.

- Keith

 

[Nate]

Wow. Where would one begin in pointing out how narrow that is,

You must just be trying really really hard for a debate point,

Nate, with all due respect, argue what you know.

If you are deeply impacted by all of this rather benign advertising that casinos do, then I will have no other recourse than to assume you have a personal gambling problem. If you do, I wish you the best in recovering.

- Keith

Keith, I have tried to look at your posts more positively. It's obvious once again, that after I raise several points about several software providers, you jump right in and defend 3Dice. No problem - Even if you do not agree with what I say, just don't keep taking PERSONAL Jabs and making this thread into a name calling fest.

I posted something that came to mind and you go the route of trying to prove you have superior intellect or I just don't know what I'm saying. In all honesty, I do not want to argue or respond to your comments. The idea of the post was to spark a discussion, if you cannot do this without making personal assumptions of my intellect or whether i have a gambling problem, DON'T bother to reply to me.

I would like to continue this discussion with other members in a sensible way. Thanks!

Nate

 

[LinkinFart]

Be a player: If you make a deposit and wager on any game in their lineup, you are now certainly a player. Check. Nothing misleading.

Be a winner: Have you, or do you know anyone that made a deposit and lost every single wager they ever made? I haven't, but it could exist. If it does exist, it's quite rare. So that being said, we all win some wagers, lose other wagers. It's usually a slow drain south, but in the meantime, RTP suggests that at least SOME of your wagers are being returned to play through again, if you choose. So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER. That's a win, plain and simple. Not the win you wanted, but did the statement "Be a winner" guarantee you a win above your wager, or a cumulative win above your deposit? No, of course it didn't. If you supply YOUR definition of winner, or the definition you just want to create, then you can make this slogan, or any slogan for that matter, misleading. You can take any slogan ever invented, show it to 100 people, and probably always find at least one person who could create something offensive or misleading about it. IMO, that doesn't mean it should be outlawed. Over my lifetime, I have certainly grown tired of people telling me what I should see, hear or do, or what I shouldn't see, hear or do.

- Keith

Sorry Da_Gambla but You`re adding things up that arent there, please dont think of this as flaming just debating.

As for "Be a player" statement, there`s nothing wrong with it. Pay, play, therefore you`re a player. No debate needed over that.


"Be a winner". This is the problem. Dr.Pepper example is poor one, because it doesnt involve possibility of losing money on grand scale and it doesnt include addiction, at least not in the same form as gambling addiction. Also, You cant drink 1000 Dr.Peppers but You can play 1000 bets of various sizes.

But even if you somehow could drink 1000 Peppers You are getting what you paid for, not less or more. So in the long run, however this may sound stupid, If one pays X amount of money for 1000 Dr.Peppers he would always get the same amount in return.

With gambling on the other hand nothing is certain, thats why its called gambling. You could put 1000 bets of various sizes and theoretically still get one big fat zero in return. Most likely in 1000 bets placed there will be some bets where return will be greater than investment, but this is also theoretical return.

"So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER." This is where You add up things that arent there. Saying that someone is a winner because he won $0.50 on $1.00 bet is nothing but a marketing spin and is not a true statement. In every standard form of comprehension getting smaller return than your investment IS called loss not a win. However someone may spin this numbers dont lie for a second, if you`re getting same amount back its called breaking even, if you get greater amont back its called winning and if you`re getting lesser amount back it cant be called winning again, only losing.

I`m sorry if I didnt make it clear in first post. It`s not illegal to promote possibility of winning, something along "Be a player, maybe winner" or "... could be a winner" with words of uncertainty like "could" or "maybe" being the key words. Not every bet guarantees a win and therefore its not true statement.

But this is not the only or most important reason why promoting gambling with statements that are not 100% accurate is illegal. It is illegal because gambling can lead to serious money losses, to serious addiction and MOST importantly, promoting it as a sure win is false advertising since gambling is in every way -EV venture if played by the rules.


EDIT: I see that Nate posted something which I noticed too. You`re defending 3dice at every opportunity You get, for reasons I can only speculate on. My best guess is that You still have good feeling about 3dice because You had some nice wins there. While this is Your right to do, regardless of the reason, there is really no need to start labeling people or calling them names. Remember one common say, "Love is blind", before you start defending anything or anyone to the point where you are willing to put your head on the line. Also, if You are willing to go extra mile for a casino just because you had a decent win than it might not be a bad idea to rethink your own stance towards gambling. Again, please dont see this as flaming, my motives are purely altruistic here.

 

[De Beuker]

There is a difference in the above. One is a statement... The other a Question...

Gambling, just like Alcohol and Cigarettes can become serious addictions. The difference with the above is that Cigarettes and Alcohol have no 'Monetary Rewards' at the end... You are not lead to believe that you can be a 'Winner' ..... (In some Cases Alcohol will make you think you CAN and WILL Score ...lol ... ). Some countries have warnings for Nicotine and Alcohol.

Certain regulatory bodies (they obviously differ worldwide) do not condone and specify that bets may not be accepted from visibly intoxicated patrons. If this is really enforced in some quarters, I don't know. Nobody cares about that online. You can sit, get totally smashed.

Advertising is a cut throat business. I have noted that Casino adverts on TV actually focus on the 'Entertainment' venues rather than gambling - You are correct in saying this. This could be due to regulatory requirements.

As you also pointed out, your interpretation may be different to that of others. It's a fair statement, although the statement IMPO is misleading.



Quite correct De Beuker. Internet Gambling is so widely available, if not controlled, some people will fall wayside. It is important for people not to have false expectations. With Da_Gambla's example above, the National Lottery is putting a question forward to you... 'Are You Next'? - This to me is not saying that you will be a winner and will pose doubts in the minds of individuals.

The Slogan 'Be a Player, Be a Winner' is a direct statement and will be illegal in many jurisdictions.

Im glad that countires like Norway are (from the sound of it) good with Consumer protection. Casinos are business entities and their ultimate goal in marketing is to attract players. When it is done in somewhat controversial manner, thats where the problem comes in.

I have recently noted a 'new form' of advertising circulating with regards to Internet Casinos. A flash screen playing a slot machine hitting a winning combination and a celebration win displayed in the form of coins spilling over. They are also often accompanied by statements like 'Play Now'... Your thoughts on this?

Nate

I'm afraid I don't share your views on advertising, not when it comes to responsible gaming.
Casinos will always advertise winners.
I think they have the right to do so.
I think everybody knows, or should know, that casinos are not some form of charity, and that these advertisments should always be taken with a grain of salt.
It would be very odd seeing a casino displaying a slotmachine in an advertisment that shows a losing combo.
And then: YOU LOST, SUCKER!!
That wont attract many new players I'm afraid...
Casinos simply have no choice, they either advertise winning/winners, or they dont advertise at all.
As long as they dont say you WILL win for sure, I cant have problems with advertising really.

Ofcourse there are also forms of advertising which are on the edge of criminal, like the one I saw a few months ago on Facebook.
Some shady affilliate was blatantly promoting the Martingale system as a way to beat online casinos.
The whole page was filled with lies, like:

"When using this system in a land based casino you will be kindly shown the door!" (No, they will welcome you with open arms)

"When using this system online, nobody is watching you, online play is not beeing monitored" (Yeah right)

He even adviced people to take a bonus, while the casinos he advertised do not even allow roulette play on a bonus.
And ofcourse the false Emails from 'customers' thanking him while stating they won 30K with his 'system'.

Thats false advertising, but its not the casinos who do that, its the rogue affilliates.

 

[LinkinFart]

I wont go into "winning slots promo" thingie.

You just reminded me of something else I forgot to mention De Beuker.

Promoting winners IS ALLOWED, those people did won money. Promoting winning is not.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Sorry Da_Gambla but You`re adding things up that arent there, please dont think of this as flaming just debating.

Well, then add this to the debate. The word 'winner' is a noun, which is based on the word 'win', which is a verb, an action. You cannot imply a value on an action, you can only add a value as an attribute to that action. Therefore, you can in fact win nothing. It's fact. Buy a scratcher card. What did you win? Nothing? Great, you won nothing. It matters not that the majority of the time, when the word 'win' is used, we expect that to be a plus. The fact of the matter is, the word is used many times with the attribute 'nothing'. Therefore, you can in fact be the noun 'winner' of the attribute 'nothing'.

Based on this, if we are adding invisible attributes to their slogan, one could easily say, to them, the slogan means 'Be a player. Be a winner of nothing.' That's perfectly formatted and acceptable English. Therefore, anything north of nothing is also a 'win', even if you lost money at the end of the transaction.

You buy a slot pull for $1 and are returned .50 cents. You WON that .50 cents, and I don't see the argument that you didn't. The worst you could do is lose $1, but then you are still a winner by definition because you won NOTHING. If you did win .50 cents back, you won .50 cents and LOST .50 cents. You net LOSS would be .50 when describing the total transaction.

"Be a winner". This is the problem. Dr.Pepper example is poor one, because it doesnt involve possibility of losing money on grand scale and it doesnt include addiction, at least not in the same form as gambling addiction. Also, You cant drink 1000 Dr.Peppers but You can play 1000 bets of various sizes.

But even if you somehow could drink 1000 Peppers You are getting what you paid for, not less or more. So in the long run, however this may sound stupid, If one pays X amount of money for 1000 Dr.Peppers he would always get the same amount in return.

Completely bizarre debate. I never compared Dr. Pepper to gambling. I used it as an example of how slogans work in general. I'll let your version there stand, as I don't even know how to debate something that far out in left field. Let's just let it die out there...

"So, if you put $1 in a slot and win back 50 cents, YOU'RE A WINNER." This is where You add up things that arent there. Saying that someone is a winner because he won $0.50 on $1.00 bet is nothing but a marketing spin and is not a true statement. In every standard form of comprehension getting smaller return than your investment IS called loss not a win. However someone may spin this numbers dont lie for a second, if you`re getting same amount back its called breaking even, if you get greater amont back its called winning and if you`re getting lesser amount back it cant be called winning again, only losing.

Read above. If you put forth a wager, the worst you can do is lose it all. If you get anything back, you WON that amount back. Any amount returned on a wager is a WIN, even if the NET is a loss. Fact, mate. Sorry..

I`m sorry if I didnt make it clear in first post. It`s not illegal to promote possibility of winning, something along "Be a player, maybe winner" or "... could be a winner" with words of uncertainty like "could" or "maybe" being the key words. Not every bet guarantees a win and therefore its not true statement.

But this is not the only or most important reason why promoting gambling with statements that are not 100% accurate is illegal. It is illegal because gambling can lead to serious money losses, to serious addiction and MOST importantly, promoting it as a sure win is false advertising since gambling is in every way -EV venture if played by the rules.

Look, whatever. I'm just happy you chaps aren't in charge of these rules. They may be bad now, but I'll accept them as is, versus the alternative you're proposing. I live in a world of more facts than beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is, the word 'win' is a verb, and there's no implied value to it. It is either given a value, or any number can be variably applied to it, including ZERO.

- Keith

 

[Nate]

It would be very odd seeing a casino displaying a slotmachine in an advertisment that shows a losing combo.
And then: YOU LOST, SUCKER!!
That wont attract many new players I'm afraid...
Casinos simply have no choice, they either advertise winning/winners, or they dont advertise at all.
As long as they dont say you WILL win for sure, I cant have problems with advertising really.

Ofcourse there are also forms of advertising which are on the edge of criminal, like the one I saw a few months ago on Facebook.
Some shady affilliate was blatantly promoting the Martingale system as a way to beat online casinos.
The whole page was filled with lies, like:

"When using this system in a land based casino you will be kindly shown the door!" (No, they will welcome you with open arms)

"When using this system online, nobody is watching you, online play is not beeing monitored" (Yeah right)

He even adviced people to take a bonus, while the casinos he advertised do not even allow roulette play on a bonus.
And ofcourse the false Emails from 'customers' thanking him while stating they won 30K with his 'system'.

Thats false advertising, but its not the casinos who do that, its the rogue affilliates.

I agree with your stance on advertising. My intention is to get your thoughts on the subject as I don't necessarily see an issue with it. I know that, this form of advertising would be banned on TV? Lol - Just imagine a Casino which shows the 'True' spins in an Ad... 125 Spins to activate the feature... funny thought

The post on Facebook is VERY interesting. Thanks for sharing. This is certainly not in the spirit of Responsible Gambling and aimed at misleading the public. I wonder if the advert was reported or not? If the advertisers were making so much money, they would not pay to advertise

Nate

 

[Da_Gambla]

Keith, I have tried to look at your posts more positively. It's obvious once again, that after I raise several points about several software providers, you jump right in and defend 3Dice. No problem - Even if you do not agree with what I say, just don't keep taking PERSONAL Jabs and making this thread into a name calling fest.

I posted something that came to mind and you go the route of trying to prove you have superior intellect or I just don't know what I'm saying. In all honesty, I do not want to argue or respond to your comments. The idea of the post was to spark a discussion, if you cannot do this without making personal assumptions of my intellect or whether i have a gambling problem, DON'T bother to reply to me.

I would like to continue this discussion with other members in a sensible way. Thanks!

Nate

Actually Nate, it doesn't work that way. You don't tell me what public posts I can chime in on, and which ones I can't. You posted something that came to mind, I responded with things that came to my mind. It's an even exchange. While it's all good fun to 'debate' with everyone who agrees with you, at which point is it actually a 'debate'?

I'm quite capable of backing up anything I post, and take responsibility for. If you don't have thick enough skin to take responses that you might not agree with, then clearly the problem lies with you, not me.

I am assuming you either have a current gambling problem, or are recovering from one. That is based on irrational concepts you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try to control other people's worlds.

If none of this is true, and your life's mission is to save everyone from themselves, well... what can I tell you? I can just speak for myself. DON'T SAVE ME. I'm capable of wiping my own arse, thanks!

- Keith

 

[Nate]

Actually Nate, it doesn't work that way. You don't tell me what public posts I can chime in on, and which ones I can't. You posted something that came to mind, I responded with things that came to my mind. It's an even exchange. While it's all good fun to 'debate' with everyone who agrees with you, at which point is it actually a 'debate'?

I'm quite capable of backing up anything I post, and take responsibility for. If you don't have thick enough skin to take responses that you might not agree with, then clearly the problem lies with you, not me.

I am assuming you either have a current gambling problem, or are recovering from one. That is based on irrational concepts you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try to control other people's worlds.

If none of this is true, and your life's mission is to save everyone from themselves, well... what can I tell you? I can just speak for myself. DON'T SAVE ME. I'm capable of wiping my own arse, thanks!

- Keith

Keith, I appreciate responses, whether or not they are in agreement with me. When responses get personal, they are uncool.

I am assuming that you have a psychological disorder or are recovering from one. This is based on irrational jabs you are inserting which, in effect, do nothing but try and turn a sensible discussion into a war of words.

If none of this is true and your life's mission is to make assumptions, what can I tell You?

Seriously, you are welcome to discuss / debate or comment on anything. Don't make it personal.

Nate

 

[LinkinFart]

Well, then add this to the debate. The word 'winner' is a noun, which is based on the word 'win', which is a verb,...

And everything related to this including definition of slot pull win.

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Slotpull, or bet, is not comprised of only placed bet OR winnings. You are IN FACT betting, not buying, that outcome of the next round will be positive for You. Once You place that $1.00 bet and You get WINNINGS of $0.50 the outcome of the bet was that You`re a LOSER. Just because you didnt lose entire bet that time, which is also likely event, it doesnt make you a winner.
Want it in simpler form? How to determine winner/loser 101:
Write down bet amount (in case you forgot that you placed a bet)
Write down the win amount (while you`re writing why not write this down too)
IF BET>WIN THEN LOSER
IF BET<WIN THEN WINNER
IF BET=WIN THEN BREAKEVEN
GAMBLERSANONYMOUS.ORG

Look, whatever. I'm just happy you chaps aren't in charge of these rules. They may be bad now, but I'll accept them as is, versus the alternative you're proposing. I live in a world of more facts than beliefs. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is, the word 'win' is a verb, and there's no implied value to it. It is either given a value, or any number can be variably applied to it, including ZERO.

- Keith

As You can see in the links I posted above word "Win" has some expected value, not defined but still it is expected positive value.
Same goes to word "Winner", it is a positive expected value.
It is correct to use "win" in situations like: "I`ve won space flight"
It is not correct to use "win in situations like "I`ve won a death sentence"
comprende

 

[Da_Gambla]

And everything related to this including definition of slot pull win.

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You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Slotpull, or bet, is not comprised of only placed bet OR winnings. You are IN FACT betting, not buying, that outcome of the next round will be positive for You. Once You place that $1.00 bet and You get WINNINGS of $0.50 the outcome of the bet was that You`re a LOSER. Just because you didnt lose entire bet that time, which is also likely event, it doesnt make you a winner.
Want it in simpler form? How to determine winner/loser 101:
Write down bet amount (in case you forgot that you placed a bet)
Write down the win amount (while you`re writing why not write this down too)
IF BET>WIN THEN LOSER
IF BET<WIN THEN WINNER
IF BET=WIN THEN BREAKEVEN
GAMBLERSANONYMOUS.ORG




As You can see in the links I posted above word "Win" has some expected value, not defined but still it is expected positive value.
Same goes to word "Winner", it is a positive expected value.
It is correct to use "win" in situations like: "I`ve won space flight"
It is not correct to use "win in situations like "I`ve won a death sentence"
comprende

The problem you are facing is that, if you are going to accuse some company of a misleading slogan, the burden of proof that it is misleading becomes yours. You have thus far failed to do that. You have trotted out only the most rigid definitions of 'win' and 'winner', and just are conveniently believing no other usage of those terms exist.

I love going way out into 'exaggeration zone' with people who like to force their rigid views on everyone else, so let's do that..

Your statement above agrees with my previous post: anything returned to the player, even if it does not equal or exceed his wager, is considered 'winnings'. The only beneficiary of 'winnings' can be the 'winner'. I stop there, and consider that if at any point you can be defined as a 'winner', then that satisfies the meaning. You continue on and say, whilst someone is a winner at that point (has taken possession of some winnings), that definition can change once that person stops to consider what their wager was, and then that net result can label them a 'loser'.

Now, taking you by the hand into the 'exaggeration zone', I will point out that you have a LOT more work to do here. Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after EVERY wager? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after a particular session at a particular game? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated after an overall session in a particular casino? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated during a particular day/week/month/year? Are you saying that a net win or loss is calculated over every wager you've made in your lifetime?

Some of these obviously start becoming rather difficult to calculate.

Coming back to reality, I would suggest that at every point outlined above, you can in fact calculate and state whether you were a winner or loser at that point in time. Therefore, we have just wiped your rigidness completely out of any argument, as it's now been proven that whatever time period you want to apply to "Be a winner" is not including all other possible time periods. You are forcing ONE possible time period for the sake of argument, but it's just argument for argument's sake, and not fact.

We agree that a return on a wager is commonly referred to as 'winnings'. We should be in agreement that the only beneficiary to winnings would be the 'winner'. You have not made any burden of proof that a company's slogan "Be a winner" should be calculated on the exact point in time YOU want it to have, and since other variables will always exist, you will never do so.

It's just... fail. Sorry.

Thanks for playing, though!

- Keith

 

[all4greed]

Regarding the old reverse your withdrawal theme, I got this gem from Villento yesterday regarding my first withdrawal:

The e-cash company may contact you in order to verify certain details. Please endeavor to assist them as best as possible so that your funds may be paid to you without delay.

Should you wish to reverse any portion of your cash withdrawal back to your Real Account, you may request this by contacting Customer Support through one of the support mechanisms below.

Come on now. I already went through the "feel free to cancel your withdrawal within 24 hours" spiel, enough already.